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Post by Deleted on Oct 16, 2020 14:50:14 GMT
Oh I fully agree. It does just need to be safe enough. And of course these things can never be measured as a "% safe" and nothing in life is totally safe. What interests me is the huge difference in capacity from the 25% ish of alternate rows off sale and two seats between groups to what we are seeing now of every row on sale, one seat between groups; 75% ish capacity.
So basically, if the prevailing mood is now that the latter is ok then we have made a huge stride forward and theatre can be viable and profitable.
(But it makes me wonder why there was SO much "we can't operate at 25% etc etc" if nobody had ever asked them to. Though of course I do get that it's uncharted territory for everyone so things weren't exactly clear; but the 25% arm waving was extensive).BIB - as far as I'm aware, any production that has sold with all rows occupied is able to do so because they've moved the rows so that there is 1m between them - which is why Songs For a New World had people in all rows of the stalls, but had to leave alternate rows empty in the circles as they couldn't be moved. The info for the Les Mis concert claims the same, that they have resat all the rows for distancing. Your average theatre won't have that space between rows already, so unless they're in a position to move rows then they're forced to keep alternate rows empty. That's not entirely accurate - they don't need to (and the Palladium didn't) keep alternate rows entirely empty in the circles. They left seats empty directly in front of and behind groups, but could sell the rest of the row (save for the 2 seat spacing between groups). That ensures some distancing (alongside the mask wearing, temperature checks and other mitigation measures) while allowing them to avoid so many completely empty rows. |
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Post by alison on Oct 16, 2020 15:50:05 GMT
BIB - as far as I'm aware, any production that has sold with all rows occupied is able to do so because they've moved the rows so that there is 1m between them - which is why Songs For a New World had people in all rows of the stalls, but had to leave alternate rows empty in the circles as they couldn't be moved. The info for the Les Mis concert claims the same, that they have resat all the rows for distancing. Your average theatre won't have that space between rows already, so unless they're in a position to move rows then they're forced to keep alternate rows empty. That's not entirely accurate - they don't need to (and the Palladium didn't) keep alternate rows entirely empty in the circles. They left seats empty directly in front of and behind groups, but could sell the rest of the row (save for the 2 seat spacing between groups). That ensures some distancing (alongside the mask wearing, temperature checks and other mitigation measures) while allowing them to avoid so many completely empty rows. Oh, that's interesting - I was in the stalls so didn't see, I was basing my assumption on this photo from Twitter. I have no idea how it was worked out then, my brain is confused.
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Post by sfsusan on Oct 16, 2020 21:54:30 GMT
Another thing are air-conditioning systems. A good AC system can "move" the air within seconds, so even that person behind you breathing out the virus is no danger. However, I don't think any of the old listed theatres in the West End have such a system. I've been surprised that theaters aren't giving a lot of detail on precautions involving their air circulation. Taking your temperature on arrival is very visible (and relatively useless, seeing as how a large proportion of people who are positive have no symptoms), but I'd like to know how often the air is exchanged, if they have HEPA filters, if the air movement is up away from the audience (or across the audience). United Airlines is doing a good job of reassuring passengers that their system is robust enough to really reduce the chances of getting the virus during a flight, so I would think theaters would benefit from touting similar precautions (if they're taking them). And does anyone know if the Bridge sold out with their new reduced seating, what % of their previous capacity would they have? |
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Post by Dave B on Oct 16, 2020 22:29:17 GMT
And does anyone know if the Bridge sold out with their new reduced seating, what % of their previous capacity would they have? There are 260 seats at the moment. They say it's a 900 seat auditorium, so that makes it 28.9% if it's fully sold out. Tho sold out is a bit of a different concept these days there. There might be no tickets available but there could be seat bubbles of 3 or even 4 seats but only one person there and so only 1 ticket sale. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 17, 2020 7:51:41 GMT
Another thing are air-conditioning systems. A good AC system can "move" the air within seconds, so even that person behind you breathing out the virus is no danger. However, I don't think any of the old listed theatres in the West End have such a system. I've been surprised that theaters aren't giving a lot of detail on precautions involving their air circulation. Taking your temperature on arrival is very visible (and relatively useless, seeing as how a large proportion of people who are positive have no symptoms), but I'd like to know how often the air is exchanged, if they have HEPA filters, if the air movement is up away from the audience (or across the audience). United Airlines is doing a good job of reassuring passengers that their system is robust enough to really reduce the chances of getting the virus during a flight, so I would think theaters would benefit from touting similar precautions (if they're taking them). And does anyone know if the Bridge sold out with their new reduced seating, what % of their previous capacity would they have? It's also useless, because they never ever hold the device close enough to your forehead and the cheaper ones are so inaccurate; they always seem to under read. I am constantly being told (when I ask) that my temp is 34 or 35 (it is actually generally 36.8). So if I did have a fever of 39, it would no doubt read 37 and I'd be let in. Like every intervention, if not done properly, it is a waste of time, money and effort. |
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Post by sfsusan on Oct 18, 2020 22:13:39 GMT
Like every intervention, if not done properly, it is a waste of time, money and effort. Just like taking your shoes off at airport security, it's only going to get the low-hanging fruit. And even if done properly, it's not addressing the most likely source of the problem. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 19, 2020 20:12:14 GMT
The guy on the Ally Pally Sunset postponement vid seems to imply they go for 2m and alternate rows off sale when bigger groups are sold. And that with groups mainly, 1, 2 or 3, they can go down to 1m. Guess the total number of people in the venue is also important and would roughly be the same with these two strategies.
Meanwhile I have tickets to the Palladium Panto and to The Shows Will(?Must) Go On thing with another household.
Do we think they will aim to re-seat people now that London is tier 2? Wonder if should contact them proactively or wait to be contacted.
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Post by fiyero on Oct 19, 2020 20:20:25 GMT
The Shows Must On:
Palladium Panto:
I can't say for certain the wording hasn't changed since they went on sale but the impression I always had was that you had to be from the same household/bubble. I know some attendees have stretched the rules but most shows never encouraged mixed groups.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 19, 2020 20:45:05 GMT
The Shows Must On: Palladium Panto: I can't say for certain the wording hasn't changed since they went on sale but the impression I always had was that you had to be from the same household/bubble. I know some attendees have stretched the rules but most shows never encouraged mixed groups. Also not sure if this wording was there before! I guess previously, the rule of 6 was my main concern - anything beyond that was possibly a grey area. Now it is very clear that tier 2 means no mixing indoors. Both shows are me and one couple (not my bubble) - I'll e-mail both shows and tell them and ask if we can split our 3 into a 2 and a 1! |
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Post by CG on the loose on Oct 19, 2020 21:34:35 GMT
The guy on the Ally Pally Sunset postponement vid seems to imply they go for 2m and alternate rows off sale when bigger groups are sold. And that with groups mainly, 1, 2 or 3, they can go down to 1m. Guess the total number of people in the venue is also important and would roughly be the same with these two strategies. Meanwhile I have tickets to the Palladium Panto and to The Shows Will(?Must) Go On thing with another household. Do we think they will aim to re-seat people now that London is tier 2? Wonder if should contact them proactively or wait to be contacted. It's possible that London will no longer be Tier 2 by panto time - it's subject to review every 4 weeks - of course it might be Tier 3 by then  But I wonder whether venues will hold on until it's clear what the status will be at the time of the show / run before acting. |
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Post by RedRose on Oct 20, 2020 8:34:24 GMT
I would not feel safe in a theatre or cinema with a person sitting exactly in the rows in front or behind me, even with a good ventilation system and wearing masks. In some areas in Germany theatres can reduce the distance if they have a good aircon ventilation system and they use the chessboard system. That means only single seats with one empty seat left, right, front and back. By this a capacity to 50 percent is possible with a decent amount of safety. Also very friendly to people going to theatre alone. We are a lot, never noticed that as much as now! Mostly in addition to that you have to wear a mask. In my region there is still a general 1,5 metres distance rule for theatres and cinemas which means two empty seats between ticket buyers (groups that book together can sit together), and every second row stays empty. When the show starts, you are allowed to take off the mask. I feel very safe with it, but it reduces the capacities enormously.
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Post by kathryn on Oct 21, 2020 11:11:30 GMT
I try very hard not to be a cynic, but maybe the 25% figure was being used when all those applications for grants were being made? My hunch is also that the 25% stuff all came from theatres and was never mandated by government! I believe the 25% capacity was based on 2m social distancing throughout, and before 'bubbles' were introduced as a concept - i.e. when there were likely to be more people needing 2m between them because of the likely size of the groups. It was always going to be a worst-case scenario. |
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Post by frosty on Oct 22, 2020 9:05:57 GMT
Chichester have reduced their capacity by 50%, but that's still over 600. I'm sure a lot of theatres would be over the moon to have that many seats for sale, whereas our local Arts centre now only has a capacity of 32, down from 120. That can't be viable in the longer term.
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Post by djp on Oct 25, 2020 23:34:04 GMT
Leicester curve sounds safer with 2m spacing , and using the smaller spaces around the main theatre to create the space.sounds far more responsible than those stretching the guidance, and the meaning of viable, to cram people in 1 metre apart,
The problem is though I wish Leicester luck , i won't be going there because the long train ride there won't be safe, and Leicester itself has twice the average number of English covid cases per 100,000 and like almost everywhere else the R number is above 1.2 .
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Post by djp on Oct 25, 2020 23:47:29 GMT
I've been surprised that theaters aren't giving a lot of detail on precautions involving their air circulation. Taking your temperature on arrival is very visible (and relatively useless, seeing as how a large proportion of people who are positive have no symptoms), but I'd like to know how often the air is exchanged, if they have HEPA filters, if the air movement is up away from the audience (or across the audience). United Airlines is doing a good job of reassuring passengers that their system is robust enough to really reduce the chances of getting the virus during a flight, so I would think theaters would benefit from touting similar precautions (if they're taking them). And does anyone know if the Bridge sold out with their new reduced seating, what % of their previous capacity would they have? It's also useless, because they never ever hold the device close enough to your forehead and the cheaper ones are so inaccurate; they always seem to under read. I am constantly being told (when I ask) that my temp is 34 or 35 (it is actually generally 36.8). So if I did have a fever of 39, it would no doubt read 37 and I'd be let in. Like every intervention, if not done properly, it is a waste of time, money and effort. Utterly useless - as the Deputy CMO pointed out in an early briefing on measuring temperatures at airports. Covid is infectious before it shows symptoms, only a fraction of symptomatic people have a temperature , and the latest ONS figure suggest over 80% of the infected, and infectious don't have any noticeable symptoms at all , even if their internal organs are under attack .
Air treatment might have some role but that would cost serious money and, as we find every summer, many leading theatres are effectively just closed boxes with no serious air conditioning.
And the latest CDC US guidance makes things even more difficult - as it now seems that you can catch covid from multiple short contacts within 24 hours , as well as from prolonged 15 minute periods in close contact with one infected person. That means tracing becomes impossible- as the short contacts are too many to follow up, and the journey to the theatre looks more dangerous- however much you do to the theatre.
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Post by jojo on Oct 28, 2020 16:08:11 GMT
I wouldn't say that it's useless to take temperatures, but it's fair to say that there needs to be proper guidance on how to do it so that the results have some meaning, and you don't have everyone squished together in the queue. Ideally, anyone with a temperature will have noticed and decided to stay at home, but knowing that you could be turned away at the door will make it less likely people will chance it.
I like the Swiss Cheese explanation of safety measures. Each measure, including temperature checks, is a single slice of cheese with a few holes in it. Individually, they cannot stop the spread of the virus. However, if we have enough slices in place, then the collective block of cheese is much less permeable.
It's foolish to think that any single measure, or even a small group of them will be enough, but just because individual measures are not totally effective doesn't mean they are of no use.
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Post by peggs on Oct 29, 2020 20:55:42 GMT
Read an article today that was heavily stresses the importance of ventilation in closed spaces, that with limited time spent there, masks and if at all possible no speech was the advice (or rather shouting/singing worse due to amount of aerosols (sp?) spread, lessens as you talk etc). So all in all air conditions, socially distanced theatres a fairly safe option, realising now it's going to be a windows open sort of winter which since i'm generally cold is going to be a challenge to see just how many clothes I can wear.
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Post by sfsusan on Oct 30, 2020 14:45:19 GMT
and the journey to the theatre looks more dangerous- however much you do to the theatre.
I've been taking taxis to the theater. Expensive, but considering I'm not going out to dinner beforehand, probably about the same as I was spending previously. |
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Post by alece10 on Oct 30, 2020 15:25:22 GMT
and the journey to the theatre looks more dangerous- however much you do to the theatre.
I've been taking taxis to the theater. Expensive, but considering I'm not going out to dinner beforehand, probably about the same as I was spending previously. I've been doing the same, good old Uber. I also usually have dinner beforehand so saving there and also as I am unable to see anything near to the amount of shows I would normally see, even with the taxis I'm not spending anything like I used to. |
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