4,993 posts
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Post by Someone in a tree on Feb 13, 2018 12:37:28 GMT
Is a white Porgy and Bess such a bad thing? The cast are not ‘blacking up’ and have changed the setting to Europe, albeit a refugee camp which must be mixed race Last year I travelled around Hungary, I saw mostly white faces. Although I do not know if it has a black population but I’m guessing not due to the countries stance on refugees I’m sure many will say if African countries can stage an all Hamlet then why not us? www.theguardian.com/world/2018/feb/10/hungarian-opera-porgy-and-bess-white-cast
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Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2018 13:17:14 GMT
I know it sounds like hypocrisy to be okay with the idea of an all-black Hamlet but not okay with an all-white Porgy and Bess, but to write it off as such is to overlook that theatrical history (the western canon, at least) has always tilted firmly in favour of "white as default", with talented non-white performers stuck competing for the few roles that have been explicitly written for their skin tone (such as Othello) or hoping for directors who understand that "historically accurate =/= white" or whathaveyou. It's about rebalancing things; as a white performer, I might dream of being in Hamilton one day, but I understand that while this tiny piece of the theatrical canon is closed off to me, I don't have to convince people to look past my skin tone to cast me in the VAST majority of ALL the other musicals.
I understand that people will disagree, and probably with perfectly valid reasons, but to me, a white person playing a non-white role just makes me think of Dudley Dursley with his 36 birthday presents, demanding still more while Harry Potter's lucky to get a toothpick in his stocking.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2018 13:22:35 GMT
I all of what @baemax says and in this case, the writer/original creative team also stipulated the format in which it be done. They would have had reasons (both creative and social) for this, so in a world where many, many musicals/operas/plays CAN be freely interpreted in terms of ethnicity, again it seems a bit ridiculous to focus in on the one small slice closed off to you as white performers.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2018 13:45:12 GMT
Honestly, the dream is for racial diversity to be SUCH a given on our stages that you *could* have an all-white Porgy and Bess and it wouldn't ruffle a single feather. If we flip it over to gender for a second, the idea of changing Helena in A Midsummer Night's Dream to Helenus genuinely unlocked some really beautiful new stuff in that 400 year old play, and Emma Rice got away with it where other directors at other venues wouldn't because she has spent her time at the Globe being so transparently committed to getting as many women on the stage as men. Say what you will about the lighting rig (please don't though), THAT'S why I will miss her fiercely at that venue.
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5,707 posts
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Post by lynette on Feb 13, 2018 14:03:39 GMT
Radio. Might a non black actor be permitted to act Porgy or Bess on the radio? Not a flippant question because what I’m getting at is surely the big question about acting.
A few years ago, the winner of s big poetry prize won with a brilliant poem written in a kind of patois which was 'black' in its conception. When it was revealed that the poet was a middle aged white woman, the poetry community was ripped apart with recriminations and argument. The competition entries were anonymous of course.
So how far can the imaginative process of a truly talented and skilled writer or actor inhabit the person of someone of a different ethnicity? If it comes down to the 'colour' of the person, then I despair.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2018 14:20:47 GMT
The colour of your skin affects your life experience. We might all be the same on the inside, but - for example - a young black man is infinitely more likely to be stopped and searched (or shot) by the police for no discernible reason, or to find himself followed around a department store by suspicious staff members, or fetishised *for* his skin colour, or perceived as less professional than a young white man. While a skilled and talented writer perhaps could understand this, it's only ever going to be from an intellectual viewpoint, as they'll never be able to truly *know* what it's like.
Also, when we say we want to hear more (let's say) Asian stories on our stages, it's rare that the person saying this just wants stories *about* Asian people, maybe with some brilliant roles for Asian performers but written by David Hare or Richard Bean. Why should we accept white writers telling stories that aren't really theirs to tell when a theatre could so easily work to develop and commission Asian writers?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2018 14:24:33 GMT
The Hungarian govt is now basically fascist; this needs to be seen in that context. Several years ago the Jewish director of their equivalent of the national theatre was sacked more or less explicitly because Jews don't represent the Hungarian nation.
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5,707 posts
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Post by lynette on Feb 13, 2018 14:48:58 GMT
Abby, Baemax, great points. There is a narrowing going on. Jews can’t represent Hungary and white actors can’t tell Asian stories? Gotta be wrong. Hungarians can and should look at Jewish experiences and Asians should and can examine white stories.
The point about colour affecting experience in society: of course. This is often within the writing of a play, in the creation of the character. Does it need separate treatment?
Just musing on this, the question of our day in relation to the arts.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2018 16:19:36 GMT
It also depends radically- to follow up on Abby's point- on context. So a high profile production in a country with a government getting a reputation for being less than forward thinking (shall we say) is a different situation to say an acting course switching out one of the Black roles in 'Rent' for example, because of a lack of suitable actors to fill the role.
In an ideal world we'll all be so used to diverse casting we'll stop noticing. But until then, we have to make conscious choices.
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Post by oxfordsimon on Feb 13, 2018 16:47:07 GMT
I think the idea of taking Porgy and giving it an updated setting exploring the lives of a different group of people at the fringes of society is a perfectly valid one. As long as it is done with respect and sensitivity.
There is the stipulation from the Gershwins that they didn't want it performed by anything other than a black cast but once the show falls out of copyright, directors will be free to do whatever they want with the material - for good or ill.
Exploring the lives of displaced people through Porgy and Bess seems a valid reinterpretation to me.
The Gershwins were drawn to the story in part because of their own family history. And the music cannot be said to be authentically black. It is very much filtered through Gershwin's own musical style.
It is a very complex topic that raises a lot of strong reactions. Respect and sensitivity are the key.
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5,707 posts
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Post by lynette on Feb 13, 2018 18:08:51 GMT
What about writers? Is it ok for a white writer to write a play about black people as opposed to people played by black actors. So Mandela say or Mohammed Ali so the person is black. Follows on from Gershwin writing the opera about black people. Or Shakespeare writing about Othello or The Merchant of Venice. Is it still ok?
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2,859 posts
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Post by couldileaveyou on Feb 13, 2018 18:39:10 GMT
What about writers? Is it ok for a white writer to write a play about black people as opposed to people played by black actors. So Mandela say or Mohammed Ali so the person is black. Follows on from Gershwin writing the opera about black people. Or Shakespeare writing about Othello or The Merchant of Venice. Is it still ok? I think it depends on what you're really writing about. There's nothing wrong about writing a biographical play on the life of some black person, but it is problematic if you want to write about the African-American experience using the point of view of a black character when you are white. That's because your point of view cannot be the one of someone who has actually experienced the issue themselves, and because it's not your story to tell. I read this essay on Porgy and Bess that said that the opera gave an outstanding contribution to the representation of the African-American community, but by today's standard it would be considered cultural appropriation. But that's not really the case because at the time there was no black composer who could have achieved such a thing because of social obstacles. The general idea is that it's okay(ish) to talk about someone else experience until they cannot do it by themselves: writing Porgy and Bess in the 20s was not problematic, writing it today would be so. I think Othello is different because it's not really a play about race.
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Post by Jan on Feb 13, 2018 19:45:06 GMT
Just curious, but I assume every single person posting in this thread is white ?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2018 20:26:35 GMT
Just curious, but I assume every single person posting in this thread is white ? Why does it matter? What's important is the quality of the points somebody raises. If you're going to prejudge someone's opinion based on who or what they are rather than what they say then isn't that pretty much the definition of prejudice?
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1,103 posts
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Post by mallardo on Feb 13, 2018 20:39:42 GMT
Whatever the general argument may be about cultural appropriation, the specific case in point is a show in which every plot point, every line of dialogue, every character touch, every note of the music speaks to the experience of poor Blacks in the American rural south - and nothing else. There's a Boat That's Leavin' Soon for Budapest? Give me a break.
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Post by oxfordsimon on Feb 13, 2018 20:54:24 GMT
Porgy and Bess was based on a play written by two white writers and adapted into an opera by a white composer and a white lyricist. I find it a stretch to consider it to be an authentic expression of black culture. The musical influences are there, without a doubt. But it very much the product of a composer of Russian/Jewish heritage combining his own style with those he was seeking to represent on stage.
Scott Joplin's Treemonisha is a different matter - written in 1910 by a black composer. Not as frequently performed - but just as important in the history of black writing for the operatic stage.
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1,103 posts
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Post by mallardo on Feb 13, 2018 21:28:19 GMT
What does the race of P&G's creators have to do with anything? They tried hard for authenticity - DuBose Hayward was from Charleston, South Carolina, he knew whereof he wrote - and they achieved something very like it. The point is that the world of Catfish Row they conjured up was absolutely specific both dramatically and musically. It transposes to Mittel Europa only by stripping it of all cultural credibility.
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Post by oxfordsimon on Feb 13, 2018 21:45:42 GMT
You can legitimately view Porgy and Bess as an examination of life on the fringes of society, people who are viewed as being less than full citizens, people without a real voice in their own futures, people yearning for something better but unsure as to how to achieve that.
Those are very similar concerns to displaced people today. Struggling to survive in a place that doesn't want them. Striving and hoping for something better but with very little likelihood of achieving it.
Yes, the musical settings could seem incongruous - but it is surely the job of the director and the cast to convince us of the world they are creating and to take the audience along on that journey. It might work, it might not - but it is a legitimate endeavour.
Many works have been updated far beyond the worlds envisaged by their creators. Some of those productions have crashed but some have become defining moments in the history of the piece.
I am on record of not being a fan of every attempt at changing the setting of a play or musical. But if it is done with respect and sensitivity, it can be a revelation.
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