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Post by Jon on Jul 30, 2023 15:39:35 GMT
That really is quite shocking when you consider that it is quite a mass consumed art form. I know regionally pantos keep the theatres going for the year but it is quite alarming for the London theatres and everyone who works in them. Was it always the case? I would add that the 70-80% failure rate was from Broadway rather than the West End but I would imagine it's similar stats. Sonia Friedman has had a number of hits but it's balanced by things that flop or don't make money. Something like Potter, Mormon etc sustain something like a New York, New York. She said in an interview that her investors trust her enough to allow to have the odd failure. With pantos, it's the golden goose for regional theatre and I would imagine it's the same for the Palladium although given that they only do one musical and one panto a year and the rest is comedy and concerts, I imagine they make good revenue. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2023 16:00:47 GMT
Taylor Swift's shows next summer will be her first in the Uk for 6 years when they take place and she has only done about 10 UK gigs in the past decade or so. Sir Elton it was his last run so the fans will want to see him again.
Plays and shows can be recycled but if Sir Ian announced Frank and Percy was to be his last stage work it would be a huge selling point or say Sir Anthony Hopkins returned to the stage for one final time they'd be selling points and merit big prices.
Lots of people will book in advance when it can be costly but a lot on here seem to get nice last minute offers and users soon put up if they see a good offer so you can see good shows for limited outlay but trips to the capital are still expensive, I've been once in the last decade having been a regular visitor the previous 15 or so years. Costs and time played a big part in it plus the hassle of getting around the capital was stressful sometimes.
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Post by sweets7 on Jul 30, 2023 16:01:08 GMT
That really is quite shocking when you consider that it is quite a mass consumed art form. I know regionally pantos keep the theatres going for the year but it is quite alarming for the London theatres and everyone who works in them. Was it always the case? I would add that the 70-80% failure rate was from Broadway rather than the West End but I would imagine it's similar stats. Sonia Friedman has had a number of hits but it's balanced by things that flop or don't make money. Something like Potter, Mormon etc sustain something like a New York, New York. She said in an interview that her investors trust her enough to allow to have the odd failure. With pantos, it's the golden goose for regional theatre and I would imagine it's the same for the Palladium although given that they only do one musical and one panto a year and the rest is comedy and concerts, I imagine they make good revenue. Odd failure should be the point. It’s art after all. But that amount of deficit would be alarming. |
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Post by Jon on Jul 30, 2023 16:12:13 GMT
It's interesting that A Little Life which on paper sounds massively unappealing ended up selling out not one but three venues but yet ATP a fairly safe bet closed early.
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Post by londonpostie on Jul 30, 2023 16:29:02 GMT
I don't watch the West End scene as closely as many on here but I really don't see a failure rate anywhere near that percentage. There's 40+ shows on atm up west, are people really saying 120 have failed recently.
Also, what constitutes a 'failure' - the production didn't make its money back, overheads outweigh income? I would think the problem with some productions is they aren't making as much as predicted and more productions are waiting in the wings.
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Post by sweets7 on Jul 30, 2023 16:34:09 GMT
It's interesting that A Little Life which on paper sounds massively unappealing ended up selling out not one but three venues but yet ATP a fairly safe bet closed early. It’s the fact you never really can predict what people will go for. And actually it has little to do with Norton’s reputation. May have sparked interest but it’s the actual production now. I would say similar for Comer in Primi Facie. Her name helped sure but her talent did that. I don’t think you could just get any actress for that. Somethings just work and big names may help. But they need the talent to back it. |
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Post by Jon on Jul 30, 2023 17:01:41 GMT
Also, what constitutes a 'failure' - the production didn't make its money back, overheads outweigh income? I would think the problem with some productions is they aren't making as much as predicted and more productions are waiting in the wings.
I would say that the lead time for a show is so long that if something closes early, it's not easy to find something at short notice to fill a gap. I don't think the fact the Lyric has Death Note in September instead of a play isn't a sign there aren't shows looking for theatres but more that a producer need more time to market a show rather than just plonking it with no notice and hope for the best. |
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Post by viserys on Jul 30, 2023 17:45:58 GMT
It’s the fact you never really can predict what people will go for. I think producers are not always up to date with what's popular among the mainstream. You would have thought that a musical about "female empowerment" featuring the hits of Britney Spears would sell like hot cakes, but it's shaping up to be an epic flop hot on the heels of the very similar Bad Cinderella on Broadway. Why? Of course I can't analyze this deeply, but my hunch is that the whole "sassy girlboss princess" thing is at least ten years ago - Six arrived at exactly the right moment in time when this was massive and caught the imagination. Now it feels dated (and Six and &Juliet have cornered the market that's there) same as Britney Spears hasn't had a hit in years and was certainly never the kind of mass-appeal bankable star across generations as Queen or ABBA (or built an enduring career like Taylor Swift over years). Meanwhile, while I hated "A Little Life" (the original book) with a passion and couldn't even finish it, I know it was/is very popular with younger readers, who would be keen to see it adapted for the stage - having a handsome popular star like James Norton in the lead might have been an additional nudge. Tellingly, the NT Live screenings locally are usually selling fairly badly with perhaps one quarter of seats sold at the cinema. A Little Life is so popular that the first screening sold out and they've added a second one in a much bigger cinema. Similarly, East Asian culture is HUGE among young people at the moment, so I am absolutely not surprised that Death Note has been selling much better than Evita (done to death) or Love Never Dies (was never popular). My Neighbour Totoro at the Barbican proves the point and I can't understand why producers aren't rushing to bring in the gorgeous stage adaptation of Spirited Away from Tokyo. And before you say "but K-POP flopped on Broadway" - yea, no surprise, when tickets are twice what the concert of a genuine K-Pop band would cost. I didn't follow things closely over there, but I knew for myself that I'd much rather see a genuine K-Pop band on stage than a musical about a fictional band. Similarly, I feel that artists like the Temptations are now just too outdated - the generation that would have enjoyed them in their heydays might see a show like Ain't Too Proud as a local tour production, but not make a big day from it. Clearly it's the Gen X'ers now, who are ready to spend on the nostalgia of their youth - Back to the Future has been doing very well in the West End despite being a mediocre show at best and Stranger Things is cashing in on that nostalgia as well (we'll see how the play will do). |
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Post by Jon on Jul 30, 2023 18:09:04 GMT
It’s the fact you never really can predict what people will go for. I think producers are not always up to date with what's popular among the mainstream. You would have thought that a musical about "female empowerment" featuring the hits of Britney Spears would sell like hot cakes, but it's shaping up to be an epic flop hot on the heels of the very similar Bad Cinderella on Broadway. Why? Of course I can't analyze this deeply, but my hunch is that the whole "sassy girlboss princess" thing is at least ten years ago - Six arrived at exactly the right moment in time when this was massive and caught the imagination. Now it feels dated (and Six and &Juliet have cornered the market that's there) same as Britney Spears hasn't had a hit in years and was certainly never the kind of mass-appeal bankable star across generations as Queen or ABBA (or built an enduring career like Taylor Swift over years). Meanwhile, while I hated "A Little Life" (the original book) with a passion and couldn't even finish it, I know it was/is very popular with younger readers, who would be keen to see it adapted for the stage - having a handsome popular star like James Norton in the lead might have been an additional nudge. Tellingly, the NT Live screenings locally are usually selling fairly badly with perhaps one quarter of seats sold at the cinema. A Little Life is so popular that the first screening sold out and they've added a second one in a much bigger cinema. Similarly, East Asian culture is HUGE among young people at the moment, so I am absolutely not surprised that Death Note has been selling much better than Evita (done to death) or Love Never Dies (was never popular). My Neighbour Totoro at the Barbican proves the point and I can't understand why producers aren't rushing to bring in the gorgeous stage adaptation of Spirited Away from Tokyo. And before you say "but K-POP flopped on Broadway" - yea, no surprise, when tickets are twice what the concert of a genuine K-Pop band would cost. I didn't follow things closely over there, but I knew for myself that I'd much rather see a genuine K-Pop band on stage than a musical about a fictional band. Similarly, I feel that artists like the Temptations are now just too outdated - the generation that would have enjoyed them in their heydays might see a show like Ain't Too Proud as a local tour production, but not make a big day from it. Clearly it's the Gen X'ers now, who are ready to spend on the nostalgia of their youth - Back to the Future has been doing very well in the West End despite being a mediocre show at best and Stranger Things is cashing in on that nostalgia as well (we'll see how the play will do). I remember a few years back someone was proclaiming that teen musicals would dominate the West End which didn't end up happening. I don't think we'll see countless adaptation of mangas, anime or East Asian cinema to the stage though, Totoro and Spirited Away are probably the best known anime titles but I can't imagine someone is going to do Akira the Musical or Parasite the Play. |
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Post by viserys on Jul 30, 2023 18:28:53 GMT
I don't think we'll see countless adaptation of mangas, anime or East Asian cinema to the stage though, Totoro and Spirited Away are probably the best known anime titles but I can't imagine someone is going to do Akira the Musical or Parasite the Play. Yea, hopefully not. I mean, the point of that long ramble above was that producers need to be ahead of the curve and not follow the 1-2 hits with half a dozen mediocre imitations. The "yasss queen, girlboss!" thing led to a few decent shows about female empowerment like Six, but the stragglers now (like (Bad) Cinderella and Once upon a one more time) are flopping because the wave has passed. Same with the "teen musical" stuff that was having a moment a few years ago with a whole deluge that has petered out by now because the few really good ones were followed by pretty mediocre or downright awful stuff. So do stuff like Death Note, Totoro and Spirited Away now (I could also see a musical tapping into Chinese legends and/or adapting a wuxia movie do well) but if you arrive too late in 4-5 years' time, your show is behind the curve and people will be tired of the East Asian stuff. Even better, find out what's only just building up into the next hype and start prepping for THAT. |
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Post by Dave B on Jul 30, 2023 18:43:45 GMT
I don't think we'll see countless adaptation of mangas, anime or East Asian cinema to the stage though, Totoro and Spirited Away are probably the best known anime titles but I can't imagine someone is going to do Akira the Musical or Parasite the Play Park Theatre is doing The Garden of Words in August so at least some coming through. |
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Post by jek on Jul 30, 2023 20:11:03 GMT
I was at the Barbican cinema this morning and one of the adverts they showed before the film was for Harry Potter and the Cursed Child. I go to the Barbican cinema a lot and can't remember seeing an advert for a theatre production before - only for screenings of theatre shows.
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Post by HereForTheatre on Jul 30, 2023 21:56:12 GMT
Speaking of the Broadway Kpop musical, there is a Kpop musical in development over here called Icon, I'm not sure if it will ever see the light of day on stage but it's had workshops. I could see something like that doing very well in a small venue like The Arts or something.
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Post by barrowside on Jul 31, 2023 0:40:39 GMT
Surely there are suitable shows for the smaller houses. The Dublin Gate's Fun Home would sit very well in The Lyric with Killian Donnelly's name above the title for a short season. It's had five star reviews across the board. Small brilliant cast, small orchestra and a simple proscenium set. They might have to find and rehearse new children as it's unlikely they could bring the brilliant Irish kids over. So much love from everyone who's seen it. Audiences in Dublin are coming out in tears. It finishes on August 26th so could go in a week or two after Death Note. Siobhán McSweeney in Happy Days is another possibility for a successful short run.
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Post by dollybm on Jul 31, 2023 7:47:08 GMT
I was at the Barbican cinema this morning and one of the adverts they showed before the film was for Harry Potter and the Cursed Child. I go to the Barbican cinema a lot and can't remember seeing an advert for a theatre production before - only for screenings of theatre shows. It’s rare, the last one I can remember was many years ago seeing an advert for Wicked (I think it was in 2016). I think at the same time potentially a Phantom trailer was showing in some cinemas in London but I never saw it. ETA: Though I do seem to recall somewhere in my mind that sometimes before Disney movies either Lion King or Frozen is advertised. |
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Post by Jon on Jul 31, 2023 8:10:11 GMT
Surely there are suitable shows for the smaller houses. The Dublin Gate's Fun Home would sit very well in The Lyric with Killian Donnelly's name above the title for a short season. It's had five star reviews across the board. Small brilliant cast, small orchestra and a simple proscenium set. They might have to find and rehearse new children as it's unlikely they could bring the brilliant Irish kids over. So much love from everyone who's seen it. Audiences in Dublin are coming out in tears. It finishes on August 26th so could go in a week or two after Death Note. Siobhán McSweeney in Happy Days is another possibility for a successful short run. In order to transfer, they would need West End rights which the Gate Theatre don't have and 1-2 weeks wouldn't be enough to recoup costs. |
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Post by mrbarnaby on Jul 31, 2023 9:13:13 GMT
I was at the Barbican cinema this morning and one of the adverts they showed before the film was for Harry Potter and the Cursed Child. I go to the Barbican cinema a lot and can't remember seeing an advert for a theatre production before - only for screenings of theatre shows. It’s rare, the last one I can remember was many years ago seeing an advert for Wicked (I think it was in 2016). I think at the same time potentially a Phantom trailer was showing in some cinemas in London but I never saw it. ETA: Though I do seem to recall somewhere in my mind that sometimes before Disney movies either Lion King or Frozen is advertised. Moulin Rouge is also running a trailer before Barbie |
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Post by iwanttix on Jul 31, 2023 13:55:00 GMT
It's interesting that A Little Life which on paper sounds massively unappealing ended up selling out not one but three venues but yet ATP a fairly safe bet closed early. It’s the fact you never really can predict what people will go for. And actually it has little to do with Norton’s reputation. May have sparked interest but it’s the actual production now. I would say similar for Comer in Primi Facie. Her name helped sure but her talent did that. I don’t think you could just get any actress for that. Somethings just work and big names may help. But they need the talent to back it. I think because the ALL book is so popular it got a lot of bums on seats to start with, then word of mouth sold the rest. James Norton wasn't really on my radar, but I know he had a lot of popularity coming out of the final Happy Valley season. Whether that was enough to make it a shoe-in stunt cast I don't know - Hiddleston did Betrayal and was very popular but the play itself was a bit meh. Norton in ALL is tremendous, a name can get people through the door but if the play and performances weren't great, they wouldn't come back- especially with such a long play. As you've said, a famous face can sell tickets but the talent needs to be there too. |
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Post by clarefh on Aug 1, 2023 10:38:19 GMT
I think the timing of ALL with the final Happy Valley definitely helped sell at least the initial run - I remember I was browsing ATG following JN being on Graham Norton and where there had been OK availability before it suddenly went to nearly sold out! I agree the performance has then probably sustained it but I think it had quite a few fan bases to appeal to - there is quite a fanatic fan base for the book, particularly amongst younger theatre goers, who then because the play is ‘good’ go repeat times and create a bit of buzz on Twitter/instagram, you then have people who are fans of JN, a smaller subset ( but again can be quite dedicated!) Bridgerton fans plus regular theatre goers who are interested as it’s Van Hove/an interesting/different play and probably want to see it for that.
When I saw it at Richmond it was quite a different audience mix reflecting the above to what you often get at a straight play ( although I noticed similar at streetcar in terms of audience mix as well).
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Post by viserys on Aug 2, 2023 9:18:55 GMT
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Post by lemur on Aug 2, 2023 10:41:28 GMT
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Post by sfsusan on Aug 2, 2023 15:38:35 GMT
I am seeing more and more empty seats on big nights. Even relatively sold out shows will have those 165 pound seats empty. I've always wondered if those empty seats were actually unsold or were sold but just went unused? |
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Post by sweets7 on Aug 2, 2023 20:20:16 GMT
I am seeing more and more empty seats on big nights. Even relatively sold out shows will have those 165 pound seats empty. I've always wondered if those empty seats were actually unsold or were sold but just went unused? I'm talking about when you go online and see the unsold tickets. |
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