525 posts
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Post by Hamilton Addict on Jun 13, 2016 14:20:47 GMT
Recently I have heard a lot about people debating about whether Phillipa Soo is leading or supporting in Hamilton. The Tony Award committee decided that Phillipa was a leading actress instead of a supporting, with many people calling this unfair, claiming the producers decided this so she wouldn't have to compete with Renée Elise Goldsberry.
How would you decide who is leading and who is supporting? I mostly think of it as who are the most important to the show.
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448 posts
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Post by ShoesForRent on Jun 14, 2016 12:30:10 GMT
I think in the grand scheme, when comparing all actors (male and female) Eliza is a supporting character- she has a very minor arc and very little stage time (less then Daveed say, who was billed supporting). That said, when looking at the female parts alone- she is the only one with an arc at all, minor as it may be. Angelica, while the more interesting character- has no arc, she goes no-where (in terms of character, because she does infact dissapear in the middle of the show lol) . So Eliza is the leading female character in the show- is she a lead charcter (as in both male and female considered)? not in my opinion.
So with all that said- it is possible the comittee saw her as the leading female, and with the producers campaigning for her to go in the lead (like you said- so she won't be up against Renée) they chose to bill her in the leading catagory...
There is a lot to consider when they bill a character leading- in Phantom for example- Raoul has more stage time than the Phantom, yet the latter is clearly the lead of the piece, while the former a supporting.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 14, 2016 13:03:35 GMT
I think it is a balance of stage time and the overall importance of a role/character.
It is a constant argument. Look at The Witch in Into the Woods. Should that be Lead or Supporting compared to the likes of The Bakers Wife?
Or Trunchbull in Matilda? How can anyone consider that a Leading Role on the basis of stage time alone? |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 14, 2016 13:12:03 GMT
It's an interseting question but I don't think there will be a definitive answer, as the rules will always be bent for one reason or another...
Shoes' reference to Phantom made me reflect on Michael Crawford's performance in The Go-Between. He's on stage all the time. He's acting all the time. But he isn't speaking or singing all the time. The Boy playing Young Leo is on stage almost all the time, and he does a lot more than Michael Crawford. A lot more in terms of physical acting, speaking and singing. Because of Michael Crawford's age, experience and reputation, I suppose many might say he is the lead. Although, in a way, I felt he supported the young actor... They (rightly) took their bows together.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 14, 2016 13:19:56 GMT
It's an interseting question but I don't think there will be a definitive answer, as the rules will always be bent for one reason or another... Shoes' reference to Phantom made me reflect on Michael Crawford's performance in The Go-Between. He's on stage all the time. He's acting all the time. But he isn't speaking or singing all the time. The Boy playing Young Leo is on stage almost all the time, and he does a lot more than Michael Crawford. A lot more in terms of physical acting, speaking and singing. Because of Michael Crawford's age, experience and reputation, I suppose many might say he is the lead. Although, in a way, I felt he supported the young actor... They (rightly) took their bows together.I thought that was incredibly generous of Michael Crawford actually. He could quite easily have taken the final bow himself knowing that he is the main draw in the show and the big name (and also the publicity focusing on his "return to the West End") but he didn't. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 14, 2016 13:23:08 GMT
Well it was the same with Michael in The Wizard of Oz, and something that also confuses me in Wicked... The Wizard getting the second to last bow before the leads when, in The Wizard of Oz, The Witch and the three friends should all bow after The Wizard as they are larger roles. And with Wicked, Fiyero and Madame Morrible should bow after The Wizard as, again, they are the larger roles.
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448 posts
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Post by ShoesForRent on Jun 14, 2016 13:40:32 GMT
Well it was the same with Michael in The Wizard of Oz, and something that also confuses me in Wicked... The Wizard getting the second to last bow before the leads when, in The Wizard of Oz, The Witch and the three friends should all bow after The Wizard as they are larger roles. And with Wicked, Fiyero and Madame Morrible should bow after The Wizard as, again, they are the larger roles. RE Wicked: I think that has to do with Joel Gray originating the role (on B'way, I know he didn't play him in the tryouts- so if anyone knows what the bows order was there that would be really interesting)- his celeb status was a big draw to the show, and he is considered somewhat of a legend. The order must have stuck since. It's all politics I tell you  . |
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Post by theatre-turtle on Jun 14, 2016 13:46:32 GMT
Louise in Gypsy must be the biggest supporting role of all. I can only think the reason is to avoid her competing with Patti/Imelda etc at awards shows
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1,103 posts
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Post by mallardo on Jun 14, 2016 13:49:18 GMT
Isn't it the rule that the title character always gets the final bow? I know the rule is broken sometimes - Gypsy being an example - but it generally applies.
PS: Sorry, ShoesforRent, I changed my post just as you were writing yours - re Gypsy. Didn't mean to pre-empt you. |
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448 posts
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Post by ShoesForRent on Jun 14, 2016 13:50:50 GMT
Well Gypsy doesn't get the last bow in Gypsy LOL ><
(Also, I secretly think Christine is the leading character [over the phantom] in Phantom and deserves the last bow... the story is esentially hers, as is the biggest arc [albeit when played smatly, which isn't all too often sadly] but that will never happen)
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4,631 posts
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Post by Phantom of London on Jun 14, 2016 13:52:32 GMT
Probably once of the most controversial questions in theatre and something this board will not ratify.
Someone said to me a leading actor is one that appears above the show's name.
Think Mrs Wilkinson in Billy Elliot some say she is leading, some say she is supporting?
Mrs Trunchball is a good example, I would say that is leading as it carries the show, but then so does Miss Honey which is supporting.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 14, 2016 13:53:02 GMT
Isn't it the rule that the title character always gets the final bow? That would explain The Wizard of Oz situation. In Mrs. Henderson, Tracy Bennett, the title character, gets the final bow when, arguably, she and Ian Bartholomew should come out together. That's certainly true in Jesus Christ Superstar, where Judas' role is far greater. |
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Post by theatre-turtle on Jun 14, 2016 13:53:54 GMT
Isn't it the rule that the title character always gets the final bow? I know the rule is broken sometimes - Gypsy being an example - but it generally applies. Miss Saigon would also break the rule |
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716 posts
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Post by theatre-turtle on Jun 14, 2016 13:55:27 GMT
I think it's quite unfair for Louise in Gypsy to compete with Nicola in Kinky Boots for example. The roles are day and night in terms of range and complexity.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 14, 2016 14:00:08 GMT
Isn't it the rule that the title character always gets the final bow? I know the rule is broken sometimes - Gypsy being an example - but it generally applies. Miss Saigon would also break the rule Who exactly is Miss Saigon? I've never been able to work that one out. Isn't it an anonymous girl who wins the title in the bar at the beginning? (I've always thought that the title from then on becomes Kim's as she "wins" an American prize...) If that's the case, yes, you are tight, as I think the Engineer always takes the final bow... |
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Post by theatre-turtle on Jun 14, 2016 14:01:10 GMT
Miss Saigon would also break the rule Who exactly is Miss Saigon? I've never been able to work that one out. Isn't it an anonymous girl who wins the title in the bar at the beginning? (I've always thought that the title from then on becomes Kim's as she "wins" an American prize...) If that's the case, yes, you are tight, as I think the Engineer always takes the final bow... Officially Gigi (the Movie in my Mind bargirl) but in the wedding scene Gigi concedes that Kim is the real winner of Miss Saigon. |
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Post by mallardo on Jun 14, 2016 14:02:04 GMT
Isn't it the rule that the title character always gets the final bow? I know the rule is broken sometimes - Gypsy being an example - but it generally applies. Miss Saigon would also break the rule Really? I haven't seen Miss Saigon in years - who gets the final bow? |
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Post by theatre-turtle on Jun 14, 2016 14:05:35 GMT
Miss Saigon would also break the rule Really? I haven't seen Miss Saigon in years - who gets the final bow? It's always the Engineer. I think Kim has a more central role and is on stage more, as well as it being much more vocally challenging. #everydaysexism? |
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Post by ShoesForRent on Jun 14, 2016 14:10:29 GMT
Really? I haven't seen Miss Saigon in years - who gets the final bow? It's always the Engineer. I think Kim has a more central role and is on stage more, as well as it being much more vocally challenging. #everydaysexism? i haven't seen/ listened to Miss Saigon in ages but I also remmember Kim being the lead :/ |
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Post by Honoured Guest on Jun 15, 2016 3:02:27 GMT
Shouldn't it be the helicopter?
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Post by SamB (was badoerfan) on Jun 18, 2016 20:07:36 GMT
I saw Miss Saigon twice towards the end of the recent run. One time the Engineer got the final bow, however the other time, Jon Jon Briones was off, and his understudy got the penultimate bow, with Eva Noblezada instead getting the last bow.
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716 posts
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Post by theatre-turtle on Jun 18, 2016 20:09:05 GMT
I saw Miss Saigon twice towards the end of the recent run. One time the Engineer got the final bow, however the other time, Jon Jon Briones was off, and his understudy got the penultimate bow, with Eva Noblezada instead getting the last bow. Interesting. When I went twice with the understudy on it was the understudy engineer who bowed last after Eva |
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Post by ncbears on Jun 20, 2016 15:37:08 GMT
The US Tony Awards have a general rule/default: If your name is above the title, you are "leading". If your name is below the title, you are "featured". There is no "supporting" category. Stage time/significance of character are irrelevant at the start. Producers can petition to have actors moved between characters - but it's up to the Producers to start the process and then the Tony Awards committee makes a ruling. (I don't know when switching categories started - but Donna McKechnie moved from below the title in 1976 to win Leading Actress in A Chorus Line). Rita Moreno won for The Ritz and used her acceptance speech to address the category.
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