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Post by talkstageytome on Apr 10, 2016 21:56:24 GMT
Oh, are we starting the 'bash a musical which most people like' thing already?
It hasn't even opened here yet, those clips only give us a taste of what the show is (and I think it is effective the way it is. Not every show has to be les mis.) and considering its immense popularity on broadway with both musical theatre superfans and casual audience members, I think it'd be a shame to dismiss the show before you even get a chance to see it. Of course it's fine to have your opinion, but I personally would hold out on dismissing it completely until you've seen it.
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Post by Dave25 on Apr 10, 2016 22:12:52 GMT
No, but the overly dramatic intonation of the rap and the poses does not match with the funny parody approach of the material. Maybe because it's not supposed to be a funny parody? It certainly doesn't take itself 100% seriously the whole time, but it does when appropriate. I think the clash (I described) is very obvious in for example, the opening song. I see it is intended to be dramatic, but it really is not, it is kind of funny. Or maybe there are people who do take it seriously, there might be, but I can't. The poses etc, are just too parody-like. I can sit through it for 2 songs, but it gets really boring and tiresome. |
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Post by talkstageytome on Apr 10, 2016 22:18:33 GMT
It's very Brechtian which is an acquired taste but not unusual.
And I agree with Baemax, a serious musical about Alexander Hamilton would be unimaginable boring I expect.
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Post by primitivewallflower on Apr 11, 2016 1:42:08 GMT
A few thoughts:
1. This spliced-together B-roll footage is a very poor representation for how the directing, staging, and choreography feels in the actual, coherent show.
2. To boot, I never once felt that these facets of the show were overwrought, and that's saying a lot since I have a very low tolerance for affectations in theatre. As a matter of fact, I thought most of the staging was tastefully understated (Having just recently seen Phantom and that damn chandelier for the umpteenth time, there I was watching Hamilton, a show whose most sophisticated special effect is a manually-moved stair ladder, and I kept saying, "THIS is the biggest show on Broadway?!")
3. To give one specific example, I was dead sure just from listening to the cast album that "Wait For It" was going to be, you know, one of those giant musical dance numbers. But (without spoiling it) it's absolutely not, and the actual staging was both surprising but in retrospect completely appropriate for the song.
4. To conclude on a broader note, if there's one thing the staged show conveys that the cast album doesn't, it's that this show wasn't conceived as a giant Broadway mega hit. It's the first buzz-y show I've seen since A Chorus Line or possibly Rent that really feels firmly rooted as a work of theatre art. It just feels like a smaller, more modest, more organic work than its peers topping the weekly Broadway box office would suggest.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 11, 2016 4:29:58 GMT
Take a look at this clip, here you can see exactly what I mean. It is all "outside", every song has the streetdance, every end pose is a "cool one facing the audience", the ensemble is extremely repetitive in shouting words about what happens, and there is very little actual interaction between characters, only in a "mimicking way", and if it tends to go somewhere, the focus quickly turns towards the audience again, or a pose, streetdance or a cool word, that screams "musical parody". If you compare this to something like Miss Saigon (another dramatic show about history), there is only 1 character in the show that turns to the audience, and there is no "posing" at all. It's like the show doesn't take itself seriously at all. Because of this, I can't take it serious either. It creates a vibe that actually makes me laugh at times. Especially when the end pose of a song comes in. People are paying $300 for that? Think this is one bandwagon I won't be jumping on!!! They're paying $300 if they're very lucky! More like $700-$1000. But if you want to dismiss a musical that people are that passionate about by short clips then go ahead. Hamilton isn't 'too' anything. It might be too musical parody for one persons tastes but you just have to look at the enormous critical and commercial success of this show plus the way it has reached the American mainstream in a way that a musical hasn't done in at least twenty years to see that the composer, director, cast and producers don't need to change a damn thing. Most people think this show is pretty perfect the way it is. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 11, 2016 5:29:53 GMT
And as a counterpoint, remember the example of Rent: a hyped US musical with a story that was far more universal and ahistorical than Hamilton... and it only played for, what, less than 2 years in London IIRC? So it's just tough to predict. This is a good point but also remember that Rent premiered in the last 1990s when internet access is nowhere near what it is now. A more recent example to look at would be The Book of Mormon which is also an Americanized story but transferred very successfully, in part due to the fact that hype was able to spread online before it came. |
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Post by Stasia on Apr 11, 2016 6:41:54 GMT
I think the clash (I described) is very obvious in for example, the opening song. I see it is intended to be dramatic, but it really is not, it is kind of funny. Or maybe there are people who do take it seriously, there might be, but I can't. The poses etc, are just too parody-like. I can sit through it for 2 songs, but it gets really boring and tiresome. Here I am, with my favourite quote. Well, maybe some of us are different? Hamilton is really deep and emotional under all these "poses and glances" things, and I am really happy for all those who can feel it and sad for those who can't  |
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Post by charliec on Apr 11, 2016 8:52:46 GMT
Has anyone else got a pre-order from Amazon UK for the new Hamilton book that comes out tomorrow? I've just checked and it says item unavailable. I don't think i'm getting it tomorrow on release day |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 11, 2016 8:58:36 GMT
I was going to wait for a more pecunious month before ordering a copy, but it seems to have vanished from Amazon all together. The audio version reckons it's still orderable (for how much longer though? Also it looks like there'll be a Hamilton calendar released in August!), but no sign of the book itself right now. :/
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Post by Deleted on Apr 11, 2016 9:04:10 GMT
Has anyone else got a pre-order from Amazon UK for the new Hamilton book that comes out tomorrow? I've just checked and it says item unavailable. I don't think i'm getting it tomorrow on release day I've pre-ordered and it said they will e-mail when they dispatch it. I don't think it will be tomorrow but hopefully soon. I think it's only unavailable to people that haven't ordered yet. I'm wondering if Amazon UK has had more orders than they initially expected. |
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Post by viserys on Apr 11, 2016 9:19:47 GMT
Here on Amazon.de it's easily available to be ordered, so it may be a glitch on the UK site.
Costs 33.95€ here. Quite annoying when Amazon.com sells it for $25, but whatever I'd save from ordering there will be eaten up by the postage from the US.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 11, 2016 9:31:36 GMT
Yeah it's not coming up for me either on Amazon...
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Post by Deleted on Apr 11, 2016 9:35:21 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Apr 11, 2016 9:49:23 GMT
Yep, shows up when I click the link, but with no option to order or anything, just "UNAVAILABLE, DON'T KNOW WHEN OR IF IT'LL BE IN STOCK".
I might just have to see if any of my friends are off to New York soon, I'm sure *someone* must be...
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Post by charliec on Apr 11, 2016 10:32:40 GMT
I've cancelled my amazon order, just found out my dad is in the US tomorrow so I'm sending him to a bookshop to collect a copy for me!
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Post by Steffi on Apr 11, 2016 10:36:18 GMT
I'm flying to New York on Wednesday so will pop into the Drama Book Shop sometime next week. Seems fitting to buy it there. :-)
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Post by Dave25 on Apr 11, 2016 12:10:47 GMT
No, but the overly dramatic intonation of the rap and the poses does not match with the funny parody approach of the material. Maybe because it's not supposed to be a funny parody? It certainly doesn't take itself 100% seriously the whole time, but it does when appropriate. Is the end of the opening song meant to be serious? Because to me it's not. |
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Post by Dave25 on Apr 11, 2016 12:16:16 GMT
A few thoughts: 1. This spliced-together B-roll footage is a very poor representation for how the directing, staging, and choreography feels in the actual, coherent show. So how is the direction, staging and choreography different? I think it's exactly how it is and what we see. If you try to say that certain flaws feel less obvious when you sit in the theatre because the audience is screaming etc, that is possible but it does not change the material. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 11, 2016 12:18:26 GMT
Maybe because it's not supposed to be a funny parody? It certainly doesn't take itself 100% seriously the whole time, but it does when appropriate. Is the end of the opening song meant to be serious? Because to me it's not. Yes. I've never thought of it to be funny or amusing and no one in the audience around me when I saw it was laughing either... |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 11, 2016 12:20:09 GMT
A few thoughts: 1. This spliced-together B-roll footage is a very poor representation for how the directing, staging, and choreography feels in the actual, coherent show. So how is the direction, staging and choreography different? I think it's exactly how it is and what we see. If you try to say that certain flaws feel less obvious when you sit in the theatre because the audience is screaming etc, that is possible but it does not change the material. It isn't different but it is more impressive when you see it in person like all theatre is e.g. Imelda Staunton's performance in Gypsy was much more effective in person than when it was filmed and shown on television. It's not that the flaws feel less obvious, it's that they aren't flaws in most peoples eyes. There's a reason this show is likely to win Best Director and Best Choreography at the Tonys as well as the other more obvious awards. |
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Post by Dave25 on Apr 11, 2016 12:35:44 GMT
I don't deny that obviously many people like it, but I try to understand where it comes from. I think it has a lot to do with the kind of brainwashing of the last 10 years, a whole generation does not know who the world's greatest singers are, they only know who Nicki Minaj, Eminem and Kanye West are. They grew up with that, it's their vision of entertainment and music. A whole generation might also not be familiar with musical theatre or the artform of acting through song, of what singing or notes can do. This artform has evolved immensely, and it usually is only school- or amateurproductions where you see all this simple cliche's, such as the funny end poses, the childish way of storytelling and the notes that fail all the time because the singers are not really capable of singing (with a rare exception). The monotone speaking-rapping with that posturing sound, like every word is placed as if the performer is about to cry or almost looks and sounds disabled, really gets on my nerves.
I always see the leads in professional productions as some kind of "super humans", I like being impressed by their immense talent of acting through song, it takes me to another world. This approach (Hamilton) is just too plain and simple for me and they are avoiding everything that matters to me.
So my point is, it is probably true that some people don't see or feel this flaws, but that doesn't necessarily say anything about the material, more about the state and time we live in.
Edit: I have seen many, many poor quality clips of things that stayed great because of the actual peformance.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 11, 2016 12:47:28 GMT
I don't deny that obviously many people like it, but I try to understand where it comes from. I think it has a lot to do with the kind of brainwashing of the last 10 years, a whole generation does not know who the world's greatest singers are, they only know who Nicki Minaj, Eminem and Kanye West are. They grew up with that, it's their vision of entertainment and music. A whole generation might also not be familiar with musical theatre or the artform of acting through song, of what singing or notes can do. This artform has evoved immensely, and it usually is only school- or amateurproductions where you see all this simple cliche's, such as the funny end poses, the childish way of storytelling and the notes that fail all the time because the singers are not really capable of singing (with a rare exception). The monotone speaking-rapping with that posturing sound, like every word is placed as if the performer is about to cry or almost looks and sounds disabled, really gets on my nerves. I always see the leads in professional productions as some kind of "super humans", I like being impressed by their immense talent of acting through song, it takes me to another world. This approach (Hamilton) is just too plain and simple for me and they are avoiding everything that matters to me. So my point is, it is probably true that some people don't see or feel this flaws, but that doesn't necessarily say anything about the material, more about the state and time we live in. Nope, sorry but this is all a load of tosh. People of all ages and all background like this show. Meryl Streep referenced the song 'The Room Where It Happens' at an event for Women in Power the other day. She is a 66 year old white woman. When I went to see the show, the audience looked like all other theatre audiences - old and white. And they all seemed to enjoy themselves. It's nothing to do with a young generation being raised on something. You might not like rappers, but most of them have talent. I don't begrudge anyone for disliking rap but to say they aren't talented is plain ignorance. Rap songs are some of the hardest to write and if you want to see people that cant rap just type 'Hamilton cover' into YouTube. Also the only person who you could claim is incapable of singing in this cast is Lin. I think he's an okay singer, a good actor and an excellent rapper so it doesn't bother me in the slightest as he only has two major non-rapping songs (Dear Theodosia and Hurricane). Everyone else is an absolutely stellar singer who can hold notes fine. In every song in Hamilton they are also acting, just like any other show but here's a clip that is more likely to suit your tastes I guess. EDIT: To your edit, I still think Hamilton looks great in those clips. As great as it does on stage? No, that's impossible to replicate. |
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Post by primitivewallflower on Apr 11, 2016 12:48:35 GMT
A few thoughts: 1. This spliced-together B-roll footage is a very poor representation for how the directing, staging, and choreography feels in the actual, coherent show. So how is the direction, staging and choreography different? I think it's exactly how it is and what we see. If you try to say that certain flaws feel less obvious when you sit in the theatre because the audience is screaming etc, that is possible but it does not change the material. I mean, it's different because contra this video the choreography is not jazz hands-pose-dance twirl-repeat ad nauseum. I can see exactly how one might think that relying solely on this (again, poorly done) B-roll video, but having, you know, seen the actual show and the full numbers, I can attest that in fact it is not. |
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Post by 49thand8th on Apr 11, 2016 13:06:11 GMT
If anything, Hamilton is slightly over-choreographed (there are scenes where the dancers, while moving beautifully, don't need to be there), but I appreciate how different it is from a lot of other shows out there.
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Post by Stasia on Apr 11, 2016 13:15:26 GMT
Ok, no this tread is not so great as it was last week.
sorry to say that, Dave25, but I think that you are missing the point. People are different. Some of them see and feel something others don't and it is ok unless neither of them is saying the way how they see and feel is the only way possible
I don't deny that obviously many people like it, but I try to understand where it comes from.
- i think previous pages pretty much cover it a few times. Different people love Hamilton because they can connect with this story and the way it is told.
I think it has a lot to do with the kind of brainwashing of the last 10 years, a whole generation does not know who the world's greatest singers are, they only know who Nicki Minaj, Eminem and Kanye West are.
- I am in my early thirties, I have no idea who is Nicki and although I've heard Kanye's name I don't know any of his songs. I was as far from rap and hip hop as possible. But the story worked for me personally. And it worked for those who came to it through Kaye and others, why not?
A whole generation might also not be familiar with musical theatre or the artform of acting through song, of what singing or notes can do.
- Should we judge the whole generation so fast? Again, people are different...
This artform has evoved immensely, and it usually is only school- or amateurproductions where you see all this simple cliche's, such as the funny end poses, the childish way of storytelling and the notes that fail all the time because the singers are not really capable of singing (with a rare exception).The monotone speaking-rapping with that posturing sound, like every word is placed as if the performer is about to cry or almost looks and sounds disabled, really gets on my nerves.
- It is your nerves and your perception. For me these people and their words sounds moving, emotional, touching, poignant and important. And again, we are different...
I always see the leads in professional productions as some kind of "super humans", I like being impressed by their immense talent of acting through song, it takes me to another world. This approach (Hamilton) is just too plain and simple for me and they are avoiding everything that matters to me.
- Then why bother? You already know you don't like it. Don't waste your time and money on it unless you want to give it a try?
and? btw, for loads of people these particular leads are superhumans and role models and life-changing people.
So my point is, it is probably true that some people don't see or feel this flaws, but that doesn't necessarily say anything about the material, more about the state and time we live in.
- My point is that some people don't see and feel Hamilton's importance, exclusiveness and poignance, and their life lacks of something ours have.
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