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Post by oxfordsimon on Apr 3, 2022 13:22:41 GMT
Extremes in human behaviour have been part of world drama for as long as we have been telling stories.
Look at the violence and transgression that is part of Greek tragedy.
Look at the horrors of Titus Andronicus, the mutilation of Gloucester in King Lear
I know there have been attempts through history to censor such plays. But we should be beyond that. We can see theatre for what it is. The same is true for film and TV.
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Post by crowblack on Apr 3, 2022 13:47:30 GMT
They are plays for adults (rarely done in schools), the violence is theatrical and linear, not close-up-realistic and instantly replayable, and were written in an era when public executions were a form of entertainment, and in the case of the Globe originally staged in an area that was also used for bear baiting and other bloodsports.
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Post by oxfordsimon on Apr 3, 2022 13:56:30 GMT
I don't believe in heavy censorship of the arts.
I never will.
I don't celebrate violence. I don't revel in seeing suffering.
But I do not believe that restricting creativity is a sign of a civilised society.
Others take a different view. Indeed have done so for centuries. But I am grateful that the likes of Bowdler and Whitehouse did not prevail. I am grateful that the Lord Chamberlain no longer says what can be shown on our stages.
But there is no evidence that Smith committed an assault last weekend because of his exposure to screen violence.
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Post by sph on Apr 3, 2022 14:02:35 GMT
Wait, just so I follow this... fictional violence is bad but getting up on stage in front of the entire world and physically assaulting a host at a major event is ok?
It's the hyper-macho egos and untouchable-ness of these men. Then they get up on stage and squeeze out tears whining about love and God blah blah blah.
If you are so concerned with male violence Crowblack, surely you can see that the problem is an assault carried out in front of millions of witnesses was allowed a free pass?
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Post by crowblack on Apr 3, 2022 14:25:56 GMT
If you are so concerned with male violence Crowblack, surely you can see that the problem is an assault carried out in front of millions of witnesses was allowed a free pass? If someone had made that comment about a physical issue I had in front of millions of people I would have got up and slapped him myself. My issue is the rank hypocrisy of an industry that churns out violent content 24/7 that has a real impact outside the gilded halls of La-la-land getting so 'omg his career is over' when someone reacts in the very pressurised heat of the moment to a cruel insult to his or her loved one. If you're that bothered, Hollywood, take a long hard look at your product (and as I type this there's news of yet another mass shooting in the USA on the radio). |
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Post by stuartmcd on Apr 3, 2022 14:43:51 GMT
If you are so concerned with male violence Crowblack, surely you can see that the problem is an assault carried out in front of millions of witnesses was allowed a free pass? If someone had made that comment about a physical issue I had in front of millions of people I would have got up and slapped him myself. My issue is the rank hypocrisy of an industry that churns out violent content 24/7 that has a real impact outside the gilded halls of La-la-land getting so 'omg his career is over' when someone reacts in the very pressurised heat of the moment to a cruel insult to his or her loved one. If you're that bothered, Hollywood, take a long hard look at your product (and as I type this there's news of yet another mass shooting in the USA on the radio). Movies, tv shows and games are not the reason for mass shootings. |
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Post by sph on Apr 3, 2022 14:59:39 GMT
If you are so concerned with male violence Crowblack, surely you can see that the problem is an assault carried out in front of millions of witnesses was allowed a free pass? If someone had made that comment about a physical issue I had in front of millions of people I would have got up and slapped him myself. My issue is the rank hypocrisy of an industry that churns out violent content 24/7 that has a real impact outside the gilded halls of La-la-land getting so 'omg his career is over' when someone reacts in the very pressurised heat of the moment to a cruel insult to his or her loved one. If you're that bothered, Hollywood, take a long hard look at your product (and as I type this there's news of yet another mass shooting in the USA on the radio). Well then I'm glad that we only communicate through a message board, as any disagreement we had would apparently only be solved by you being violent. Thankfully (mercifully) you don't make the rules for the society we live in. |
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Post by crowblack on Apr 3, 2022 15:03:36 GMT
Well then I'm glad that we only communicate through a message board, as any disagreement we had would apparently only be solved by you being violent. Well, unlike you, I can differentiate between a political disagreement on a message board and a personal insult made to someone's face about their disability or similar issue with their body. |
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Post by sph on Apr 3, 2022 15:09:16 GMT
Well then I'm glad that we only communicate through a message board, as any disagreement we had would apparently only be solved by you being violent. Well, unlike you, I can differentiate between a political disagreement on a message board and a personal insult made to someone's face about their disability or similar issue with their body. * eyeroll * Oh, and you'd still be arrested for slapping that person who insulted you btw. |
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Post by crowblack on Apr 3, 2022 15:25:12 GMT
Oh, and you'd still be arrested for slapping that person who insulted you btw. On an occasion that I did, I was congratulated by the security guard and others who witnessed it, who were also witnesses of what the male had done to provoke it. Police were not called. Anyway, off to pot up some sweet peas before it's time for book group. |
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Post by stuartmcd on Apr 3, 2022 15:29:00 GMT
Oh, and you'd still be arrested for slapping that person who insulted you btw. On an occasion that I did, I was congratulated by the security guard and others who witnessed it, who were also witnesses of what the male had done to provoke it. Police were not called. Ah so the reason you’re so defensive over Will Smith is because you yourself have acted in the same way? |
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Post by sph on Apr 3, 2022 15:33:32 GMT
On an occasion that I did, I was congratulated by the security guard and others who witnessed it, who were also witnesses of what the male had done to provoke it. Police were not called. Ah so the reason you’re so defensive over Will Smith is because you yourself have acted in the same way? And don't forget that a woman slapping a man is always seen as perfectly fine! Nonsense behaviour. |
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Post by crowblack on Apr 3, 2022 15:33:41 GMT
Ah so the reason you’re so defensive over Will Smith is because you yourself have acted in the same way? No, because I think his action was understandable in the unusual context. I've done it and would do it again if a similar situation occurred to me again. There has been some interesting discussion on Nihal's show on radio 5 this week: he thinks there are times when this reaction is appropriate, has done it himself to a racist bully, and encourages his children to stand up for themselves likewise. I am a woman, and 5'6" tall. Or short. In case you were thinking I was John Wayne or something. We were taught Jiu Jitsu at school (all girls) in 'self defence classes'. That's what they were called. Maybe they're not a thing nowadays but they were when I was a teenager. |
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Post by sph on Apr 3, 2022 15:40:12 GMT
I think you have a strong misunderstanding of what self-defence is...
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Post by Deleted on Apr 3, 2022 15:55:46 GMT
Tell me you haven’t watched Moon Knight without telling me you haven’t watched Moon Knight. The image was released before the show opened, and no, I'm not going to watch a series that chooses that image of the thousands it could have chosen for its promo material. When I was at art college in the 1990s some a-hole put a goldfish in a blender. It's not an 'innocent' image. Most people can tell the difference between fictional violence and real violence. Most people, but not all. I heard a well known male actor defending the sexual violence in one of his films saying no normal person would be turned on by that. It's not 'normal' people I worry about when I'm walking down the street at night, and the watch and rewatch pause, gif culture is very different from the linear form of narrative viewing of old. The teenage gang who punched a friend of mine to death went home and watched a violent gangland film immediately afterwards. A group of young men involved in drug gang violence interviewed on the radio recently described how when they walked the streets they thought of themselves as being in a violent computer game, detached from reality. A Clockwork Orange was withdrawn for years because of a copycat killing and attacks. A sex worker who was quite well known near my school was murdered in Jack the Ripper style attack the week a Ripper drama was shown on TV. Yeah, no, it IS an innocent image. Because he's not even got the blender connected and he literally uses the container to transport the fish. Watch the show and educate yourself on something before you express your pointless outrage. |
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Post by inthenose on Apr 3, 2022 23:34:32 GMT
Gone off the deep end a bit, this... I think all but one of us in the entire thread agrees that hitting people isn't the right thing to do.
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Post by mkb on Apr 4, 2022 10:42:56 GMT
Gone off the deep end a bit, this... I think all but one of us in the entire thread agrees that hitting people isn't the right thing to do. Having numbers on your side is never the validation of an argument. Crowblack is entitled to her opinion, which she has argued without putting anyone down, and I know from Twitter and offline chat that many agree with her. Trying to marginalise and belittle her is exactly the sort of social-media pile-on behaviour I have been in despair of throughout this thread. |
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Post by sph on Apr 4, 2022 21:38:07 GMT
There is nothing belittling about saying violence is wrong and assault is illegal but you do you I guess...
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Post by mkb on Apr 5, 2022 0:16:18 GMT
There is nothing belittling about saying violence is wrong and assault is illegal but you do you I guess... No-one said otherwise. My comment referred to "I think all but one of us in the entire thread agrees...", which seems to be saying "no-one else agrees with you, you're wrong, we're right". |
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Post by inthenose on Apr 5, 2022 7:16:37 GMT
There is nothing belittling about saying violence is wrong and assault is illegal but you do you I guess... No-one said otherwise. My comment referred to "I think all but one of us in the entire thread agrees...", which seems to be saying "no-one else agrees with you, you're wrong, we're right". Actually I was trying to take the focus off crowblack to stop her continuing to get rinsed in this thread by everyone who disagrees with her take. |
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Post by theglenbucklaird on Apr 5, 2022 8:54:43 GMT
No-one said otherwise. My comment referred to "I think all but one of us in the entire thread agrees...", which seems to be saying "no-one else agrees with you, you're wrong, we're right". Actually I was trying to take the focus off crowblack to stop her continuing to get rinsed in this thread by everyone who disagrees with her take. As disturbing as I found the comment, 'to get rinsed' made me laugh |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 5, 2022 11:28:06 GMT
Crowback talking about self defence is different to somebody assulting someone for no reason. I've got an in direct friend who is 5ft nothing and she was out with friends last year and a bloke was getting over familiar with one of the group and wouldn't leave them be so the girl slapped him one around the face and he was the one asked to leave by security.
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Post by inthenose on Apr 5, 2022 12:14:48 GMT
Crowback talking about self defence is different to somebody assulting someone for no reason. I've got an in direct friend who is 5ft nothing and she was out with friends last year and a bloke was getting over familiar with one of the group and wouldn't leave them be so the girl slapped him one around the face and he was the one asked to leave by security. Much like the clip I shared with Smith giving that reporter a little backhand, your friend was perfectly within their right to physically defend themselves from harm. Self defence is a right we all have. There is a difference between self defence of a physical threat to self defence of being hurt by words. The law clearly defines this |
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Post by kathryn on Apr 5, 2022 13:51:00 GMT
Yes, you have the right to defend yourself. The law even recognises that some words are ‘fighting talk’.
The problem with Smith is the context of the assault - Rock was on stage at the Oscars performing an act, he would have moved on to the next presenters in a second and the joke would have been largely forgotten. Smith had to get up out of his chair and disrupt the show to hit him. There’s no way in law that it would be justified, and there’s no way the Academy can let it go because it affected the people getting the actual award, who had their moment overshadowed.
It was a supremely stupid, unprofessional, thing to do.
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Post by crowblack on Apr 5, 2022 14:10:44 GMT
Hello again! How one perceives harm and hurt and self defence depends very much on who you are. I am a women, and have disabilities, and I have been targeted both physically and verbally for both. Some people actually commit suicide because of purely verbal bullying, and I'm sure most of us can, decades on, remember wounding remarks someone made to us. The tone of these boards sometimes slips from discussion of a public topic to personal insults and rudeness too. If you didn't think words had some sort of power to hurt, why bother slipping from discussion into making personal and rude remarks, as some of you do?
Nihal's segment on his programme is interesting as it was a take on the Oscars incident from someone who is not not from a privileged white/male background, and had experienced the power of words to hurt. Women sometimes respond to insulting or abusive remarks or behaviour with a slap or throwing a drink in the abusive male's face: I think many people of my generation would regard that as 'reasonable' in the circumstances.
The American 'roasting' form of 'humour' is just smartly-dressed bullying, and in this Oscars case, ableist, misogynist bullying at that. In a highly pressured and unusual situation, Rock inviting millions to laugh at a woman's alopecia, her partner responded in a way that some people sympathise with and some are horrified by, depending on their lived experience and background. It was a slap, designed to show contempt, not a punch designed to cause lasting damage. And I don't know what neck of the woods you live in, but I really doubt police where I live would bother to come out and prosecute someone for slapping a man who had just made an ableist remark about his partner.
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