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Post by oxfordsimon on Mar 28, 2022 3:30:19 GMT
No matter how much you love your wife or how offensive you might consider a joke to be, assaulting someone is not the appropriate response.
Will Smith was not being chivalrous. He wasn't defending his wife's honour. He was being violent.
The Academy should not have allowed him to receive his Oscar in person. His behaviour disqualified him from deserving that moment.
An appalling moment that should not be brushed away by a half hearted apology. Chris Rock was being provocative. His joke was in poor taste. But he did not deserve to be hit.
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Post by oxfordsimon on Mar 28, 2022 3:41:35 GMT
'Love will make you do crazy things'
That is not justification for assault
Smith displayed what looked to me like classic toxic masculinity
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Post by oxfordsimon on Mar 28, 2022 3:43:19 GMT
Plus his act of violence has overshadowed the success of every other nominee and winner
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Post by mkb on Mar 28, 2022 5:33:55 GMT
Echoes of the Noel Clarke BAFTA fiasco?
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Post by inthenose on Mar 28, 2022 5:40:10 GMT
Completely unacceptable.
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Post by jojo on Mar 28, 2022 8:03:24 GMT
The BBC are living for the drama this morning. They're making a half-hearted attempt to feign sympathy for the incident pulling attention from all of the deserving winners, as they proceed to light up with glee as they talk just about it.
It's not for me to say how Jada should react to the joke, but although it was in poor taste and made me cringe, it wasn't half as bad I was expecting it to be given the reaction. I am confident to say that Will completely over-reacted. I accept there would be a lot of nerves and he was presumably already wound up, but did he think he had some manly obligation to defend Jada's honour?
It will be interesting to see how this plays out. Jane Campion got a lot of abuse for making an ill-thought out joke about sexism in Hollywood when she accepted her Best Director gong at the SAG awards recently. She was addressing Venus and Serena Williams who were in the audience and said something about them being lucky they didn't have to compete against the men. Many thought, not unreasonably, that it diminished the racism they'd faced during their careers, or the general sexism that still exists in sport. But her fundamental point about sexism in the film industry was a very fair one, and she was well within her rights to raise the issue.
I expect Smith will have to do a bit more apologising, but he'll be fine. Everyone loves him. He's a great chat show guest, and has been good to all of the people who shape opinions in showbiz. I'd like to think there will be a proper conversation about assault, and what I'd consider to be a very public example of toxic masculinity. But I bet in reality most of it will just be showbiz reporters loving the drama, in full expectation of a redemption story giving them even more to talk about.
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Post by mkb on Mar 28, 2022 8:10:53 GMT
'Love will make you do crazy things' That is not justification for assault Smith displayed what looked to me like classic toxic masculinity Speaking as a masculine man, I find that quite lazy stereotyping. Feminine men and women -- in fact all of us -- are capable of violent acts. What Smith did today says nothing about men generally.
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Post by crowblack on Mar 28, 2022 9:13:11 GMT
I think it's the opposite of toxic masculinity: I feel it's quite 'gentlemanly', in the old fashioned sense. It's what I would do and actually have done myself, as a woman, several times to young men who insulted me or sexually assaulted me when I was younger and stronger, in the pre-knife-carrying age. It's also what I would expect a male relative would do on my behalf if there was a similar incident directed at me, mocking me, my appearance or disability to a global audience or even just a pub!
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Post by samuelwhiskers on Mar 28, 2022 9:17:37 GMT
Some poor podcaster who happens to also be named Will Smith and owns the Twitter handle @willsmith is having a very fun day on Twitter today.
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Post by dan28 on Mar 28, 2022 9:37:27 GMT
Julie Andrews has never hit someone at the Oscars. What a wonderful time that was.
The joke had no class. The violence even less. The worst part of this is that a big part of the population (including posters here) find this kind of behaviour normal. The world is turning into a Zoo, where violence is the only way to express yourself and where hosts of this kind of events descended to dumb roast jokes. The time of real humour, elegance and respect is long gone.
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Post by talkingheads on Mar 28, 2022 9:52:20 GMT
I think it's the opposite of toxic masculinity: I feel it's quite 'gentlemanly', in the old fashioned sense. It's what I would do and actually have done myself, as a woman, several times to young men who insulted me or sexually assaulted me when I was younger and stronger, in the pre-knife-carrying age. It's also what I would expect a male relative would do on my behalf if there was a similar incident directed at me, mocking me, my appearance or disability to a global audience or even just a pub! Gentlemanly? To embarass your wife in front of the world then play the crying victim when you apologise? Is this the future, that it's free game for anybody mentioned in a joke to assault the comic? Jada will be answering questions about her husband's behaviour forever. It's toxic in the worst way. The gentlemanly thing to do would have been for Will and his wife to quietly and calmly leave the ceremony. Same statement, no violence.
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Post by jojo on Mar 28, 2022 9:57:57 GMT
I think it's the opposite of toxic masculinity: I feel it's quite 'gentlemanly', in the old fashioned sense. IMO it's thinking it's gentlemanly to 'defend' a female relation when she's more than capable of standing up for herself, is why people are describing it as toxic masculinity. Sometimes calling something gentlemanly behaviour is just an excuse to justify sexism and toxic masculinity. Will's behaviour is the opposite of a women (or any victim) fighting back. It was a man assaulting another man, supposedly on behalf of his wife, when she is more than capable of sticking up for herself. The idea that a joke (even if ill judged) about Jada's hair loss (a subject she's apparently talked about publicly) meaning she can be the new GI Jane is at all equivalent to physical or sexual assault is bonkers.
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Post by dan28 on Mar 28, 2022 10:07:32 GMT
Crowblack, expressing this kind of physical violence at the Oscars is bonkers. The fact that you consider this as normal in such a setting is worrying. This has nothing to do with defending a female relation. If anything he has ruined the relation. But that is not the point here.
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Post by sph on Mar 28, 2022 10:25:15 GMT
What he did was NOT "gentlemanly" by any means.
The last thing we need is some dick-swinging male ego throwing punches to "defend his woman". What year is this? And doing it on live TV in front of the entire planet. Nope.
And then not only is he allowed to stay in the room, but he wins the Oscar and everyone stands and applauds? Gross. His award will forever be tarnished by the memory of his behaviour and rightly so.
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Post by talkingheads on Mar 28, 2022 10:28:59 GMT
Also, not the main point, but was anybody else really uncomfortable at Regina Hall's joke when she chose the sexiest men to come onstage then groped them? Just imagine the outcry if a male comedian had tried the same stunt with a group of women.
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Post by mkb on Mar 28, 2022 10:30:26 GMT
Good playwrights shine a light on human behaviour. Many a play can teach us how good people can behave badly when put in positions of extreme stress. And we nod along, because we know it's true from our own experiences.
So it's sad that this website apes the worst of social media, by seeing this event in black and white terms, rushes to judgement, and doesn't seek to understand why what happened happened. I have no idea whether Will Smith is a "good guy" or not, but I wouldn't judge him based on this one incident.
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Post by sph on Mar 28, 2022 10:36:08 GMT
This isn't really about Smith being good or bad as a person though. No one here knows him personally. We are responding to his behaviour at that moment, which was wrong and classed as assault and would be no matter who did it. A good person can commit a crime and it's still a crime.
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Post by inthenose on Mar 28, 2022 10:39:33 GMT
Good playwrights shine a light on human behaviour. Many a play can teach us how good people can behave badly when put in positions of extreme stress. And we nod along, because we know it's true from our own experiences. So it's sad that this website apes the worst of social media, by seeing this event in black and white terms, rushes to judgement, and doesn't seek to understand why what happened happened. I have no idea whether Will Smith is a "good guy" or not, but I wouldn't judge him based on this one incident. People are reacting to the incident, which was completely wrong no matter who did it. You can't go around hitting people.
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Post by talkingheads on Mar 28, 2022 10:52:23 GMT
Good playwrights shine a light on human behaviour. Many a play can teach us how good people can behave badly when put in positions of extreme stress. And we nod along, because we know it's true from our own experiences. So it's sad that this website apes the worst of social media, by seeing this event in black and white terms, rushes to judgement, and doesn't seek to understand why what happened happened. I have no idea whether Will Smith is a "good guy" or not, but I wouldn't judge him based on this one incident. This isn't about him being a good guy. This is about him committing assault on live television then, far from receiving any kind of sanction or charges, actually gets an Academy Award (and longer than any other winner on the stage to cry and grovel, making himself the centre of attention).
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Post by crabtree on Mar 28, 2022 10:56:26 GMT
I would of course be the first to rush up on stage to collect an Oscar should i get nominated, but one can't help feeling that today the whole circus is somewhat misplaced.
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Post by jojo on Mar 28, 2022 10:56:56 GMT
It's fine to think that people are more than one incident in their life, and it's definitely true to say that good people sometimes do bad things, and bad people sometimes do good things.
However, this was a bad thing, and attempts to pretend otherwise is wishful thinking. Most people here are judging this one incident. Most people here just happen to think that assault is wrong.
Talkingheads - I've not seen the incident you mention, but I'm not a fan of women ogling men as a form of empowerment. It was first something I noticed in the late eighties (hello Bananarama), and back then it did seem to be making a statement about sexism, or at least challenging pre-conceptions, and there was the opportunity for humour from turning a trope on its head. I'm sure some people still think it's funny, and sometimes it can still be funny, but for me (as a woman) it's become a tired joke that I could do without.
However, a bit like racism, the power dynamics are key. Women groping men without consent is wrong, but it's unlikely that the man is in fear for his life at any point. Women were legally the property of men until fairly recently, and men still hold most power in society. That context matters.
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Post by crowblack on Mar 28, 2022 11:00:17 GMT
Crowblack, expressing this kind of physical violence at the Oscars is bonkers. The fact that you consider this as normal in such a setting is worrying. This has nothing to do with defending a female relation. If anything he has ruined the relation. But that is not the point here. Having this kind of 'joke' at the Oscars in unacceptable. How did we, as a society, get to a place where a man stands on a stage and to millions and millions of people in a global audience makes a joke about a woman with hair loss, a condition many - probably all - women who experience it find distressing, especially given the massive weight of social expectations put on us around our physical appearance? Is that what we consider entertainment nowadays? What passes for wit? This was an Oscar ceremony where a film about people with disabilities was the surprise best picture winner. Brilliant. I am disabled myself and in a group that helps promote people with disabilities in the arts and media. One effect of my disability is hair loss. I'm a woman, it's not something expected in women as it is in men, and it makes me very self conscious. Chris Rock, a privileged man on a platform at a glitzy ceremony, used that platform to punch down. A verbal response would be water off a duck's back: as soon as she sat down again Rock would have made some smartass remark at her expense. I'd have preferred it if she had got up and slapped him, but her husband doing it on his behalf, when he turned and saw the dismay in her face at Rock's words, feels like an appropriate response in the heat of the moment.
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Post by talkingheads on Mar 28, 2022 11:01:35 GMT
It's fine to think that people are more than one incident in their life, and it's definitely true to say that good people sometimes do bad things, and bad people sometimes do good things. However, this was a bad thing, and attempts to pretend otherwise is wishful thinking. Most people here are judging this one incident. Most people here just happen to think that assault is wrong. Talkingheads - I've not seen the incident you mention, but I'm not a fan of women ogling men as a form of empowerment. It was first something I noticed in the late eighties (hello Bananarama), and back then it did seem to be making a statement about sexism, or at least challenging pre-conceptions, and there was the opportunity for humour from turning a trope on its head. I'm sure some people still think it's funny, and sometimes it can still be funny, but for me (as a woman) it's become a tired joke that I could do without. However, a bit like racism, the power dynamics are key. Women groping men without consent is wrong, but it's unlikely that the man is in fear for his life at any point. Women were legally the property of men until fairly recently, and men still hold most power in society. That context matters.
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Post by inthenose on Mar 28, 2022 11:03:31 GMT
Crowblack, expressing this kind of physical violence at the Oscars is bonkers. The fact that you consider this as normal in such a setting is worrying. This has nothing to do with defending a female relation. If anything he has ruined the relation. But that is not the point here. Having this kind of 'joke' at the Oscars in unacceptable. How did we, as a society, get to a place where a man stands on a stage and to millions and millions of people in a global audience makes a joke about a woman with hair loss, a condition many - probably all - women who experience it find distressing, especially given the massive weight of social expectations put on us around our physical appearance? Is that what we consider entertainment nowadays? What passes for wit? This was an Oscar ceremony where a film about people with disabilities was the surprise best picture winner. Brilliant. I am disabled myself and in a group that helps promote people with disabilities in the arts and media. One effect of my disability is hair loss. I'm a woman, it's not something expected in women as it is in men, and it makes me very self conscious. Chris Rock, a privileged man on a platform at a glitzy ceremony, used that platform to punch down. A verbal response would be water off a duck's back. I'd have preferred it if she had got up and slapped him, but her husband doing it on his behalf, when he turned and saw the dismay in her face at Rock's words, feels like an appropriate response in the heat of the moment. So if you or someone you know made a joke I (or my partner) found offensive, I would be in the right to give you a smack across the face?
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Post by mkb on Mar 28, 2022 11:07:16 GMT
People are reacting to the incident, which was completely wrong no matter who did it. You can't go around hitting people. You certainly shouldn't, but the fact is that even people who agree with that sentiment sometimes hit another person. Human empathy demands an understanding of why humans revert to base animal instincts in some situations. (A social media pile-on from the moral high ground is another example of base animal behaviour in my opinion.) Perhaps it's me, but when I see an incident like today's, I don't just feel for the target of the aggression, I also pity the aggressor, because they are likely being subjected to some intolerable pressures to cause them to react like that. They might just be a bad'un, as my grandma would say, but it's more likely they're no more flawed than the rest of us.
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