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Post by sfsusan on Mar 29, 2022 11:39:35 GMT
Speaking as a masculine man, I find that quite lazy stereotyping. Feminine men and women -- in fact all of us -- are capable of violent acts. What Smith did today says nothing about men generally. Nobody sensible is saying otherwise. When people talk about toxic water, they're not saying all water is toxic but recognizing that some water is. Same with toxic masculinity. |
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Post by crowblack on Mar 29, 2022 11:41:33 GMT
This morning I saw a clip from his younger days where he's making a bald joke about the bald band member on the chat show he's on. Whatever interview he does needs to address his own relationship with dodgy jokes. There are many comedians and indeed just people in general who recognise as they mature that the things they said off the cuff in their youth are actually deeply hurtful, as they have come to learn more about the world. I mean, you literally saw it in real time: he starts by laughing at the joke as they are all expected to do as part of the ritual, then sees his wife's reaction, how it has impacted her personally, and the laughter stops. |
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Post by mkb on Mar 29, 2022 11:58:37 GMT
Speaking as a masculine man, I find that quite lazy stereotyping. Feminine men and women -- in fact all of us -- are capable of violent acts. What Smith did today says nothing about men generally. Nobody sensible is saying otherwise. When people talk about toxic water, they're not saying all water is toxic but recognizing that some water is. Same with toxic masculinity. How about "toxic ethnicity"? Would you be comfortable using that? Assuming not, why is "toxic masculinity" any different? |
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Post by sfsusan on Mar 29, 2022 12:12:42 GMT
Only one person on earth was the butt of that remark, made to humiliate her in front of millions I don't think Chris Rock put that much thought into what he considered a joke. He said it because he thought he'd get a laugh (and he did). I doubt he thought about her reaction at all. |
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Post by sfsusan on Mar 29, 2022 12:15:57 GMT
How about "toxic ethnicity"? Would you be comfortable using that? I don't understand the concept. "Toxic masculinity" is embracing male gender stereotypes to such an extreme that the behavior harms the person and others around them. What would "toxic ethnicity" look like? |
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Post by theglenbucklaird on Mar 29, 2022 12:17:53 GMT
I was fully expecting him to do a sympathetic, but appropriately (not too) probing interview with Oprah in a month or so. He'd do a proper apology and talk about his feelings, and some of the other things that have and continue to trouble him in life. Take the opportunity to talk about the challenges of alopecia, but in a way that helps people learn, not using it as an excuse. Oprah would give him a hug and everyone who previously liked Will Smith could get on with liking him again. Alas I read this morning that he's going to do an exclusive interview with his own wife on her internet tv show. If true that's a mistake and can be interpreted as a cash-in and/or a clumsy attempt to control the narrative. As much as everyone thinks Will is usually a good guy, there's going to be all sorts coming out of the woodwork. This morning I saw a clip from his younger days where he's making a bald joke about the bald band member on the chat show he's on. Whatever interview he does needs to address his own relationship with dodgy jokes. Does apologising rule out a lucrative pay per view boxing match later in the year? Missed a trick, they are worth millions |
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Post by jojo on Mar 29, 2022 12:22:58 GMT
This morning I saw a clip from his younger days where he's making a bald joke about the bald band member on the chat show he's on. Whatever interview he does needs to address his own relationship with dodgy jokes. There are many comedians and indeed just people in general who recognise as they mature that the things they said off the cuff in their youth are actually deeply hurtful, as they have come to learn more about the world. I mean, you literally saw it in real time: he starts by laughing at the joke as they are all expected to do as part of the ritual, then sees his wife's reaction, how it has impacted her personally, and the laughter stops. I agree that as people get older and live more of life they learn stuff, and I'm glad that Will was allowed to work that out without being assaulted. But then the victim of Will's joke was a less famous session musician, and not a big Hollywood star. However, my point is that it would be better for Will if he were to publicly reflect on how his own sense of humour has matured, rather than have other people make excuses for it. He's no doubt forgotten that joke, and it's best he (or rather his people) check for anything like that that should be considered before he rushes into an interview that's supposed to draw a line under everything. |
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Post by mkb on Mar 29, 2022 12:34:20 GMT
How about "toxic ethnicity"? Would you be comfortable using that? I don't understand the concept. "Toxic masculinity" is embracing male gender stereotypes to such an extreme that the behavior harms the person and others around them. What would "toxic ethnicity" look like? Substitute "ethnic" for "male gender" in your definition, and you have your answer. Both are nonsense, unless you have a prejudicial view of these stereotypes. |
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Post by sfsusan on Mar 29, 2022 13:24:17 GMT
Yes, I understood what you were trying to do.
Let me define my terms. I believe there are gender stereotypes that are not only assigned from 'society' but are believed in by members of that gender. I believe that those stereotypes, when internalized and taken to an extreme, can be harmful not only to the person involved but can cause them to act in ways that are harmful to others.
I believe that, in general, the stereotypes assigned to 'masculine' behavior tend to be more aggressive than those assigned to 'feminine' behavior. So a man who believes he should behave in that stereotyped way can take it to an extreme, resulting in 'toxic' behavior that harms others.
I also believe that toxic femininity exists, resulting in women who emotionally manipulate others to get what they want or otherwise take advantage of society's gender expectations. And again, these are stereotypes, but stereotypes that are embraced by those individuals, resulting in negative behaviors.
I'm not saying that these beliefs or behaviors are embraced by all men or all women. And believing in the stereotypes alone is more likely harmful to the person rather than others. But taking those self-stereotypes to an extreme (whether by men or women) can result in harmful behavior.
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Post by steve10086 on Mar 29, 2022 13:30:40 GMT
Rock was asking for a slap… and he got it!
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Post by Jan on Mar 29, 2022 15:03:19 GMT
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Post by sph on Mar 29, 2022 15:11:18 GMT
Nonsense article. I like that they say that John Wayne did far worse when he tried to rush the stage once and had to be restrained by six security guards. THAT'S THE WHOLE POINT! Smith wasn't approached by ANY security guards. He was allowed to swagger back to his seat and sit there for the rest of the show and then got a standing ovation when he collected his Oscar.
We can't just call it racism every time a person of colour is criticised. He assaulted someone, on stage, at a MASSIVE GLOBAL AWARD SHOW. That has nothing to do with race. Toxic masculinity yes, but not race.
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Post by olliebean on Mar 29, 2022 15:27:40 GMT
Let's be honest, with the whole 'comedy roast' culture that's purposely offensive, someone was gonna get a slap eventually. Just a shame it wasn't Gervais Ricky is a genius and one of the funniest people I've ever worked with. There is not a malicious bone in the man's body and he does an awful lot behind the scenes that people don't see. I know you might not believe me, but I've worked on some of Ricky's shows and he is one of the classiest and most giving stars I've dealt with. A few of the most famous "nice guy" comedian celebrities (one southern, one very northern) have abhorrent views they actually believe, rather than jokes they tell on a stage for shock/laughs. It's funny how the world works. Specifically on your point, Ricky Gervais clearly loathes the rich, white, male dominated Hollywood scene and frankly he talks more sense than most. He is an outsider to it all - by choice. That's why his perfect laser incision was so lauded, he isn't "one of them". I know of at least a couple of people to whom he's offered/given money to let him bully them for a laugh, who might disagree with you about how classy he is, but OK. |
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Post by jojo on Mar 29, 2022 16:22:03 GMT
Nonsense article. I like that they say that John Wayne did far worse when he tried to rush the stage once and had to be restrained by six security guards. THAT'S THE WHOLE POINT! Smith wasn't approached by ANY security guards. He was allowed to swagger back to his seat and sit there for the rest of the show and then got a standing ovation when he collected his Oscar. We can't just call it racism every time a person of colour is criticised. He assaulted someone, on stage, at a MASSIVE GLOBAL AWARD SHOW. That has nothing to do with race. Toxic masculinity yes, but not race. I'd say in many ways John Wayne along with Clint Eastwood's behaviour was worse, and the whole of Hollywood, including the Oscars were massively racist. That the security guards intervened then is good, but not a get-out-of-jail card for the attitude of those in the room who booed the women. Though fair's fair - she also got applause and cheers, so not everyone in the room was awful. But it happened before I was born, so excuse me for not having it as a handy reference for the standard of good behaviour at a modern awards ceremony. John Wayne was clearly an awful person, and Clint Eastwood was and presumably still is a terrible human being. I don't think Will Smith is a terrible person, just someone who did something wrong in a heated moment. Worth remembering that it's not "The Guardian", but someone who was paid to write a deliberately provocative opinion piece. Plenty of black people have openly criticised Smith. Inevitably some racists are enjoying the opportunity to join in, but let's not get all "Hitler was a vegetarian" about this. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 29, 2022 16:28:32 GMT
Good points JoJo we don't know what the past history is between Chris, Will and Jada. I'd always thought stress or trauma can cause alopecia. Matt Lucas puts his down to being hit by a car. Olumpic Gold Medalist Duncan Goodhew's was down to him falling out of a tree I seem to remember. Gail Porter's was due to stress/issues in her life/her marriage breaking down. I once worked with a chap in the mid 1990's who was then in his mid 50's and still had a good head of hair. But he told me and showed me photos of when he'd suffered from it in the 1960's and was totally bald. As JoJo said also there must be more too it, Will who has always had pretty good PR and has been at the top for over 30 years on the crowning night of his career to do this. There is something deeper. Some actors are well known for having a temper and you could imagine them doing it but Will would be way down any list if you said who'd put one on somebody at an awards show. Well, there was this (where I think Will Smith was perfectly entitled to react the way he did, actually) but it was a bit of a slip of the mask. (If mod could embed I'd be grateful) You could say when the reported kissed Will that was as much assault as being slapped back. If a man did that to a woman without her consent and she slapped him back then who would be more likely to be done for assault? |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 29, 2022 16:29:25 GMT
You could do Smith vs Chris Rock with winner to take on The Rock
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Post by Jan on Mar 29, 2022 16:46:01 GMT
Nonsense article. I like that they say that John Wayne did far worse when he tried to rush the stage once and had to be restrained by six security guards. THAT'S THE WHOLE POINT! Smith wasn't approached by ANY security guards. He was allowed to swagger back to his seat and sit there for the rest of the show and then got a standing ovation when he collected his Oscar. We can't just call it racism every time a person of colour is criticised. He assaulted someone, on stage, at a MASSIVE GLOBAL AWARD SHOW. That has nothing to do with race. Toxic masculinity yes, but not race. The Guardian is just the left-wing version of The Daily Mail - bigoted click-bait pandering to their own echo chambers - I’m surprised people bother to read either of them. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 29, 2022 16:49:43 GMT
Nonsense article. I like that they say that John Wayne did far worse when he tried to rush the stage once and had to be restrained by six security guards. THAT'S THE WHOLE POINT! Smith wasn't approached by ANY security guards. He was allowed to swagger back to his seat and sit there for the rest of the show and then got a standing ovation when he collected his Oscar. We can't just call it racism every time a person of colour is criticised. He assaulted someone, on stage, at a MASSIVE GLOBAL AWARD SHOW. That has nothing to do with race. Toxic masculinity yes, but not race. The Guardian is just the left-wing version of The Daily Mail - bigoted click-bait pandering to their own echo chambers - I’m surprised people bother to read either of them. Well said. |
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Post by Jan on Mar 29, 2022 16:58:42 GMT
The Guardian is just the left-wing version of The Daily Mail - bigoted click-bait pandering to their own echo chambers - I’m surprised people bother to read either of them. Well said. And while we’re at it, I see a lot of criticism of the Russian oligarch Lebedev who owns the Standard which apparently is a bad thing as it is an outlet for Russian propaganda, but no mention at all of the fact he also owns (largest shareholder) The Independent. Isn’t that a bad thing too ? Can we therefore discount anything that paper says too ? |
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Post by jojo on Mar 29, 2022 17:01:53 GMT
The Guardian is generally fine, and has some excellent journalism. But it allows free reign for, shall we say, a range of views, in their opinion pieces. That was OK in the days when people bought a physical paper, so opinion pieces could be seen as provocative conversation starters, often with a companion piece arguing the other way. But these days when people share individual articles, extreme and ridiculous views are rewarded with extra clicks, and then people claim they represent the editorial position on a subject.
Presumably they think the clicks are worth it.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 29, 2022 17:16:27 GMT
I only read the Daily Mail's online showbiz page as that is good. That and the Guardian are both as bad as each other IMO.
Also no-one can say it was racism as it was one black guy bitch slapping another. Again thank goodness it wasn't a white and black person.
John Wayne was apparently off stage and had to be held back by Security. We don't know what John was shouting or threatening but he was 6ft 4ins about 240lbs so him confronting a small woman and especially knowing his politics might not have been pretty.
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Post by sfsusan on Mar 29, 2022 17:29:08 GMT
That was OK in the days when people bought a physical paper, so opinion pieces could be seen as provocative conversation starters, often with a companion piece arguing the other way. But these days when people share individual articles, extreme and ridiculous views are rewarded with extra clicks, and then people claim they represent the editorial position on a subject. Also these days when most people read the news from their online feeds, there is little to differentiate an opinion piece/editorial from straight news. My hometown paper, the San Francisco Chronicle, ran a satirical opinion piece about the Oscar incident that many, many commenters took as serious reporting and responded with outrage. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 29, 2022 18:06:51 GMT
And while we’re at it, I see a lot of criticism of the Russian oligarch Lebedev who owns the Standard which apparently is a bad thing as it is an outlet for Russian propaganda, but no mention at all of the fact he also owns (largest shareholder) The Independent. Isn’t that a bad thing too ? Can we therefore discount anything that paper says too ? Happy to criticise all Newspapers across the political spectrum. They may not sell as many units as they used to but their online influence is completely underrated and, as you say, they help create echo Chambers which find their way into the offline World causing schisms and closed minds in the process. If Social Media is one of the worst things that has happened to us, the ability to block and mute is, in my opinion, not far behind. |
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Post by vdcni on Mar 29, 2022 22:35:49 GMT
The Guardian's comment is free section is designed to have a range of different opinions and viewpoints. It is not the Guardian's editorial line and pretending it is, is just deceitful.
There's also another piece on the Guardian site which specifically points to there not being a racial aspect to this. So there's two different takes right there but I'm sure the people who claim to not want to live in echo chamber will go back to criticising one of the few papers that makes an effort, imperfectly, to publish other points of view.
If you can point to anything the Guardian has ever done in its editorial line equivalent to calling judges traitors for doing their job perhaps the comparison to the Mail could be taken seriously.
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Post by stuartmcd on Mar 29, 2022 22:40:25 GMT
So some interesting updates on this whole incident.
So of course Will Smith is being investigated by the Academy which could lead to a suspension. It would mean that during that suspension he would not be able to vote for future awards, appear at the Oscars or even be nominated.
The Screen Actors Guild have also announced that they will be investigating which is more interesting because if he is suspended by SAG then it could mean that he wouldn’t be able to work during that suspension.
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