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Post by londonpostie on Nov 1, 2021 11:21:09 GMT
Al Smith writes and Royal Court Associate Director Hamish Pirie directs. Has had decent funding support and it's a co-commission with an outfit in LA.
RC getting behind this one; big cast, impressive cast - inc. Genevieve O'Reilly who some may recall from The Ferryman's original production (and transfers).
Looking forward to it, esp. with my shiny new membership card wot gives me early access to the glorious £12 Mondays  |
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Post by Dave B on Nov 1, 2021 11:35:04 GMT
Al Smith writes and Royal Court Associate Director Hamish Pirie directs. Has had decent funding support and it's a co-commission with an outfit in LA.
RC getting behind this one; big cast, impressive cast - inc. Genevieve O'Reilly who some may recall from The Ferryman's original production (and transfers).
Looking forward to it, esp. with my shiny new membership card wot gives me early access to the glorious £12 Mondays!
Also looking forward to this, we had tickets for it before Covid so was extra pleased it has made a comeback. |
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Post by cavocado on Nov 1, 2021 11:58:26 GMT
I'm seeing this in a couple of weeks. londonpostie I think RC membership is one of the few that is worth paying for at the moment with access to the best seats on Mondays. I'd like to see NT, Hampstead, etc rethinking their membership inducements. Early booking isn't worth paying for when shows are selling so slowly. |
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Post by londonpostie on Nov 1, 2021 12:08:12 GMT
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Post by partytentdown on Nov 6, 2021 9:53:13 GMT
Bit of a hoo-hah going on on Twitter about this. One of the main characters, a rich Elon Musk type, was called 'Hershel Fink', a very stereotypically Jewish name. The author has apparently changed the name after the outcry.
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Post by samuelwhiskers on Nov 6, 2021 10:56:32 GMT
The Royal Court being hypocritical racists. Must be a day ending in Y.
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Post by londonpostie on Nov 6, 2021 13:56:06 GMT
Bit of a hoo-hah going on on Twitter about this. One of the main characters, a rich Elon Musk type, was called 'Hershel Fink', a very stereotypically Jewish name. The author has apparently changed the name after the outcry.
Interesting. I only know Hershel as a hipster brand, though Wiki has a famous Astronomer who discovered Uranus (make your own jokes up).
"Fink (n): an unpleasant or contemptible person".
Anyway>>
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Post by crowblack on Nov 6, 2021 19:16:03 GMT
I find it amazing that (presumably) no-one flagged this up during the production process as problematic, especially given the Royal Court's previous controversies in this area.
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Post by londonpostie on Nov 6, 2021 19:42:35 GMT
fwiw, the only Fink I've ever heard of is Barton Fink (title of a film by the Coen Brothers, which is a jewish name i am familiar with). So as I understand it atm, it's okay to use Fink if you're a US Jewish filmmaker but not if you're a British non-Jewish playright.
Unless the idea is that Elon Musk is "problematic", in which case I'm sure the amazed internet can help me with nuance. |
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Post by lynette on Nov 6, 2021 20:18:37 GMT
fwiw, the only Fink I've ever heard of is Barton Fink (title of a film by the Coen Brothers, which is a jewish name i am familiar with). So as I understand it atm, it's okay to use Fink if you're a US Jewish filmmaker but not if you're a British non-Jewish playright.
Unless the idea is that Elon Musk is "problematic", in which case I'm sure the amazed internet can help me with nuance. Jewish names all over Hollywood, both sides of the screen. This was about a stereotypical portrayal of a Jewish character so clearly identified by the name and portrayed as money grabbing and so on. I haven't seen the play. Have you, londonpostie? But we all know what the complaints are about and you are being somewhat disingenuous. |
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Post by wiggymess on Nov 6, 2021 20:22:02 GMT
fwiw, the only Fink I've ever heard of is Barton Fink (title of a film by the Coen Brothers, which is a jewish name i am familiar with). So as I understand it atm, it's okay to use Fink if you're a US Jewish filmmaker but not if you're a British non-Jewish playright.
Unless the idea is that Elon Musk is "problematic", in which case I'm sure the amazed internet can help me with nuance. There certainly is an issue with who is portraying who, who is writing who, and most importantly who is being consulted and involved in the process. But no one is saying non-Jewish writers shouldn't write Jewish characters, and to go down the "oh, so it's OK for Jewish people to do it" route is either purposefully disingenuous or completely naive to what is actually happening here. The issue is that the character in this play is reinforcing very dangerous and ill-informed stereotypes about the Jewish community. Barton Fink isn't. And I say this with a heavy heart - the royal court is a very important place to me but they've misjudged this one badly. |
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Post by londonpostie on Nov 6, 2021 20:27:02 GMT
lynette you are mistaken. It's not a Jewish character. He's like Elon Musk, apparently. The name Fink references the dictionary definition, which is pretty much how many see Musk. I'm sure people can be offended if they really need to me offended, it also looks like a characterisation of Elon Musk as much of the world see's him, using a dictionary definition.
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Post by wiggymess on Nov 6, 2021 20:59:42 GMT
lynette you are mistaken. It's not a Jewish character. He's like Elon Musk, apparently. The name Fink references the dictionary definition, which is pretty much how many see Musk. I'm sure people can be offended if they really need to me offended, it also looks like a characterisation of Elon Musk as much of the world see's him, using a dictionary definition. So to be clear, you've pivoted from complaining that non-jewish people aren't allowed to use Jewish names, to now claiming it isn't a Jewish name? What a mess these culture wars are. People so entrenched in their opinions on both sides they can't hear themselves. |
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Post by Dawnstar on Nov 6, 2021 21:44:34 GMT
Since all names have some sort of ethnic or religious origin/link, what happens if the playwright changes the name & then there are complaints from people from whichever ethnic group the character has been changed to? Is it going to get to the stage where villains will all have to be named Mr/Ms X, to avoid any possible offence?
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Post by max on Nov 6, 2021 21:52:09 GMT
The character isn't Jewish, but the derivation of the word 'Fink' is probably the German word for 'finch' which is used as a derogatory term for someone who is undesirable or untidy. (I've no idea why in German culture a bird would be linked with that, but apparently it is). So going to the dictionary definition does fit with the dramatic tradition of names referring to a character's qualities, but the specifics on this occasion don't help. And there are lots of prominent Finkelmans (surname) past and present who've contributed generally to public life, and specifically in the Jewish cultural sphere, so the problem is compounded.
On this occasion (unlike the 'Falsettos' controversy in the Selladoor production) there wouldn't have been any call to be particularly careful there's Jewish input to the production process, as the character wasn't thought of as Jewish, and the writer didn't think they were writing them as such. Unfortunately it seems it had to go public for it to be noticed.
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Post by max on Nov 6, 2021 21:57:20 GMT
Since all names have some sort of ethnic or religious origin/link, what happens if the playwright changes the name & then there are complaints from people from whichever ethnic group the character has been changed to? Is it going to get to the stage where villains will all have to be named Mr/Ms X, to avoid any possible offence? I don't think so. Jack Reacher is a name I don't think caused controversy, and the surname could be said to be a comment on the character's qualities. (I haven't seen the film though). Things go wrong sometimes, but writers will mostly be fine. This is unfortunate but no malevolence involved. |
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Post by wiggymess on Nov 6, 2021 22:27:30 GMT
Since all names have some sort of ethnic or religious origin/link, what happens if the playwright changes the name & then there are complaints from people from whichever ethnic group the character has been changed to? Is it going to get to the stage where villains will all have to be named Mr/Ms X, to avoid any possible offence? A complete non-point. Can you provide any examples of when this has happened? Since there have been plenty of unpleasant characters/villains named all sorts and with different ethnic connotations across all artforms, and there haven't been the complaints you describe. It's a character with a name that is heavily implied to be Jewish who is portrayed as an immoral money grabber. What aren't you getting about this? This isn't cancel culture, "you can't say anything anymore can ya", and I don't think anyone is going to have any long term repercussions, but it's bizarre to me how badly people are missing the point. Surely you must understand why this is upsetting for the Jewish community. |
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Post by londonpostie on Nov 6, 2021 22:32:07 GMT
The character isn't Jewish, but the derivation of the word 'Fink' is probably the German word for 'finch' which is used as a derogatory term for someone who is undesirable or untidy. (I've no idea why in German culture a bird would be linked with that, but apparently it is). So going to the dictionary definition does fit with the dramatic tradition of names referring to a character's qualities, but the specifics on this occasion don't help. And there are lots of prominent Finkelmans (surname) past and present who've contributed generally to public life, and specifically in the Jewish cultural sphere, so the problem is compounded. Lets image a future production that uses a media character - lots of Jewish people in the media - in the style of say Piers Morgan. Is it now unacceptable for that character to be called Peter Fink?
How about a comedian like say Jim Davidson featuring in a tv series, he also can't be called Jeremy Fink?
The dictionary term fink is now as unacceptable as the n word?
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Post by wiggymess on Nov 6, 2021 22:44:32 GMT
The character isn't Jewish, but the derivation of the word 'Fink' is probably the German word for 'finch' which is used as a derogatory term for someone who is undesirable or untidy. (I've no idea why in German culture a bird would be linked with that, but apparently it is). So going to the dictionary definition does fit with the dramatic tradition of names referring to a character's qualities, but the specifics on this occasion don't help. And there are lots of prominent Finkelmans (surname) past and present who've contributed generally to public life, and specifically in the Jewish cultural sphere, so the problem is compounded. Lets image a future production that uses a media character - lots of Jewish people in the media - in the style of say Piers Morgan. Is it now unacceptable for that character to be called Peter Fink?
How about a comedian like say Jim Davidson featuring in a tv series, he also can't be called Jeremy Fink?
The dictionary term fink is now as unacceptable as the n word?
Hope no one responds to this. Just trolling now. |
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Post by samuelwhiskers on Nov 6, 2021 22:51:45 GMT
The character wasn’t called Peter. Ludicrous false comparison. He was named the most stereotypically Jewish, absolutely 100% Jewish-coded name there is, for a character (“the evil hook-nosed money grubber who secretly controls the world”) that’s basically a great big walking Antisemitic Stereotype 101.
That’s like saying a character who spends every scene getting drunk and randomly blowing up things with petrol bombs who happens to be named Seamus O’Leprechaun absolutely isn’t an Irish character and how could any Irish person possibly be offended because clearly it’s nothing to do with Ireland or Irish people.
FYI multiple people including actual Jewish people raised concerns and complaints about this during the play’s long journey to the stage, and were overruled and shut down. They knew. They were absolutely aware it was a name that screams “THIS CHARACTER IS JEWISH” and refused to listen to Jewish people’s complaints for months until it turned into a social media scandal.
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Post by londonpostie on Nov 6, 2021 23:04:09 GMT
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Post by max on Nov 6, 2021 23:52:43 GMT
We're not in a uniquely critiquing time for culture or writers. I'm thinking of a play in which the writer rewrote an Irish character that audiences found to be conceived as crudely thick, and the writer (Irish himself) apologised and said of himself and the audience view: "he may rely upon the justness of the comment"
Richard Brinsley Sheridan, 'The Rivals'. The character was Sir Lucius O'Trigger - 'loose trigger' being signification of hothead in the name. The name stayed, but the character was modified.
1775.
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Post by orchidman on Nov 7, 2021 1:24:57 GMT
Always impressive to issue an apology that makes things worse
"For clarification, the character is not Jewish"
Just one of the many gentiles called Hershel Fink then
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Post by purple12 on Nov 7, 2021 3:01:05 GMT
I don’t comment on this site much but I’m Jewish and I have been upset by this all day. It’s not the name itself that’s a problem, it’s the name which is, whatever googling people want to do, very very clearly Jewish, being attached to every antisemitic trope in the planet about Jewish people being avaricious, money-grabbing, ‘stealing indigenous land’, I can go on but the trailer from the play in the context of a clearly intended Jewish character (and no, I don’t for a split second believe their ‘but the character isn’t Jewish, thing - Herschel Fink isn’t a dog whistle, it’s a dog foghorn) is very uncomfortable viewing and to me, screams racism .
What hurts more is the Royal Court fluffing on about what great work they are doing on anti-racism while clearly showing contempt and ignorance of the Jewish community at a time of rising antisemitism. It’s not cancel culture. They can change the name - and could have at any point in the process - without changing the play and it wouldn’t have been an issue. The same play with a name that didn’t scream ‘this is a Jewish man’, wouldn’t have the same connotations because they wouldn’t link to centuries old tropes.
I’m sad it has to be spelt out like this. I’m off again to lurking for a few more years
And just to add - thank you so much to those who have spoken out. It has been a bit grim being Jewish over the last few years in particular and I have stopped expecting people to ‘get it’ so I am really really grateful to those who do and have spoken up
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Post by cavocado on Nov 7, 2021 9:55:09 GMT
I find it hard to believe nobody noticed this sooner. I wonder if they're pulping the playtexts and reprinting?
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