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Post by Jan on Aug 25, 2021 10:50:18 GMT
He has shown no real affection or talent for musicals - let alone crowd-pleasing ones and yet the resouces of the Olivier are at his disposal for this enterprise. I don't go to musicals much but "Anything Goes" at the Barbican is an absolute joy - the theatre totally full for every performance, a crowd-pleasing familiar piece with absolutely no "message" at all, big stars, minimal Covid protocols (which I know may not be to everyone's taste). It's the sort of thing NT could be doing to boost revenue, in amongst their usual gloomy programming. I think under every single AD prior to Norris they would be.
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Post by cavocado on Aug 25, 2021 11:18:34 GMT
I'm writing this as someone with no insider knowledge of how theatres are run, but I'm just wondering how things can be derailed by one person - the artistic director? I can see how the artistic vision might just not be right, but ultimately there are trustees who are employing the AD and he is answerable to them if his vision is out of kilter with the organisation's objectives, what they expected of the appointment, or their responses to public/industry criticism. So are the trustees failing to take enough responsibility?
Apart from the trustees, aren't there dozens of people whose opinions should be heard by the AD, whether formally or just because it's part of their job to keep their ears to the ground? I mean senior employees, major figures in other parts of the industry, neighbouring organisations (Hayward, RFH, etc), the Arts Council, Stratford Council and business representatives, etc. Maybe even audiences?
On the most basic level there must be many actors and directors going to the NT and the Garden Theatre and gossiping about what's wrong e.g. wondering when the RSC theatres will reopen, and gossip and unrest must surely filter back to those in charge, unless everyone working in theatre thinks all's hunky dory with the RSC and NT?
I'm probably not understanding what an AD's role is, but if they're the artistic directors, aren't there other employees responsible for non-artistic/business stuff, e.g. who would be saying to GD, we've got to get these theatres open asap because we're killing the town's economy and our own reputation? And if not, why not? Why would we expect someone whose expertise is in putting on plays, to be able to do things like managing finances, buildings and employees, economic responsibilities? Or maybe it's the finance directors who are overriding artistic decisions and saying they can't afford to reopen yet (unless it's underwritten by the Gorvy family)?
It seems like the response to the pandemic has highlighted (existing?) issues around how big arts organisations are managed. There's the artistic vision - and there are legitimate criticisms of the way both RN and GD have been doing their jobs as creatives and seemingly not been held to account. And there's also the balance between creativity and business/financial management, as well as wider responsibility to audiences and local communities, which seems to be the issue which is killing Stratford and keeping the NT from fully reopening as a public space.
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Post by tmesis on Aug 25, 2021 12:19:35 GMT
I was losing interest before lockdown - I hated The Visit and The Welkin. Norris has the unique ability of all the previous ADs to suck all the life out of the place. That was true pre Covid but even more so now that it is being run like a police state.
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Post by dlevi on Aug 25, 2021 13:07:18 GMT
I'm probably not understanding what an AD's role is, but if they're the artistic directors, aren't there other employees responsible for non-artistic/business stuff, e.g. who would be saying to GD, we've got to get these theatres open asap because we're killing the town's economy and our own reputation? My extremely limited knowledge of the situation at the NT is that Rufus is a consensus builder and listens to everybody. And that's not a bad thing in general, but when running a multi-theatre institution there needs to be someone at the top with a clear vision to make tough artistic and business decisions and that as talented and as personable as he may be, he's in over his head. Let's remember he was an NT Associate before he was given the job, so the thinking may have been: He knows the building, he knows how its run, there won't be a learning curve. Similarly Greg Doran got the job for which he had been campaigning for many many years. Both organizations are facing unprecedented social and artistic challenges in these unsettled times. There are no easy answers. My question is are these organizations asking the hard questions or simply sleepwalking in the hopes that it will all be over soon?
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Post by zahidf on Aug 25, 2021 13:27:09 GMT
The national firing their staff during the pandemic left a bad taste in the mouth
In terms of the shows, i found the highs ( Small Island, After Life, The Welkin) to be high, and the lows to be low. I do agree that they need to take a look at their programming and put something a bit more inspiring in. Saying that, am looking forward to Normal Heart
And the RSC really need to sort themselves out in terms of getting more shows out there
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Post by meister on Aug 25, 2021 14:44:11 GMT
On balance, looking back since Norris joined there have been some highs: The Deep Blue Sea, The Red Barn, Follies, Network, Home I’m Darling, Small Island, Anna, Hansard, Death of England and some lows: I’m Not Running, The Threepenny Opera but I think Hytner probably had a higher ‘win’ rate.
Hoping their programme for 2022 will be more uplifting!
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Post by Someone in a tree on Aug 25, 2021 20:10:07 GMT
I was losing interest before lockdown - I hated The Visit and The Welkin. Norris has the unique ability of all the previous ADs to suck all the life out of the place. That was true pre Covid but even more so now that it is being run like a police state. Today a friend and I went for a drink on the southbank. The NT foyer is closed off but the outside bar at Street level is open, you have to be seated by the staff at VERY socially distanced tables and then order from the app - is it July 2020? The place had no atmosphere so we went to the RFH and it was far superior in everyway.
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Post by Jan on Aug 25, 2021 20:15:18 GMT
My assumption is there is a lack of diversity of opinion around Norris and his senior staff and the board who appointed him. Same with Doran. There’s probably no one there to really challenge them - not like all the shouting matches Peter Hall had with the full-time team of associates he built.
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Post by cavocado on Aug 26, 2021 13:55:51 GMT
So, it sounds like there are too many yes men (and women) at the NT and RSC and not enough arguments! But I suppose times have changed since Peter Hall - would an AD get away with having regular stand up rows with other employees now? Maybe consensus building means not enough risk taking and controversy, and less diversity in the sense of contrasting and intransigent personalities bouncing off one another?
I was just thinking that we've also lost the platform talks that the NT normally does with writers, actors, etc. Surely those would be pretty easy to re-start, and another way of revitalising the building.
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Post by zahidf on Aug 26, 2021 15:31:37 GMT
So, it sounds like there are too many yes men (and women) at the NT and RSC and not enough arguments! But I suppose times have changed since Peter Hall - would an AD get away with having regular stand up rows with other employees now? Maybe consensus building means not enough risk taking and controversy, and less diversity in the sense of contrasting and intransigent personalities bouncing off one another? I was just thinking that we've also lost the platform talks that the NT normally does with writers, actors, etc. Surely those would be pretty easy to re-start, and another way of revitalising the building. At the least they can do it on the stage and stream it online. Very lazy from the NT IMO
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Post by Jan on Aug 26, 2021 15:39:30 GMT
One thing Norris and especially Doran have done is just bring in directors on a freelance basis for one or two productions. They’re hardly likely to challenge the ADs on overall artistic policy not least because they want to be invited back. In the past each organisation had a semi-permanent core team of directors (up to 5 or 6) who did multiple productions over multiple seasons and so were invested in the overall policy and were in a position to challenge the AD. The way the RSC let Simon Godwin go to the NT to do Shakespeare productions rather than put him on the staff at the RSC after he’d done a couple of good productions there was quite telling.
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Post by Jan on Aug 27, 2021 10:32:40 GMT
Another similarity of Norris and Doran is that they are both open to the charge of nepotism. Norris to a lesser extent over this Hex production. But if you were AD of the RSC how could you ever come up with Death of a Salesman as a play you would programme as one of the few major non-Shakespeares you do, and having programmed it then come up with Antony Sher as the obvious leading actor for it.
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Post by Phantom of London on Aug 27, 2021 14:03:14 GMT
I thought that Death of a Salesman was very good and got 5 stars from Michael Billington and did transfer to the West End.
However with the National and Rufus and his nepotism, the Arts Council should remove every penny of funding.
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Post by oxfordsimon on Aug 27, 2021 14:10:11 GMT
The issue with Death of a Salesman wasn't that it was a poor production, but that it was a vanity project for Doran and Sher that used public money rather than being a commercial project. Plus it diverted the RSC from Doran's then strategy of doing Main House productions of the full set of plays in 5 years. We now know that he wasn't actually that bothered about sticking to his own strategy and has now completely dropped it.
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Post by Stephen on Aug 27, 2021 14:20:30 GMT
I can usually find something in the NT's programme to get excited about. In the past it has been Downstate, Follies, Small Island, Angels in America. The problem is that although I would normally be thrilled to book and see The Normal Heart. Given the last year and how I'm feeling now it's really unlikely that I will see it. I'm sure it'll sell well enough but it's just not the right time for me I think. I won't be back for a while (at least until the shop is open and the Understudy are stocking my favourite beer Munchen Helles beer again)
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Post by Jan on Aug 27, 2021 15:26:09 GMT
I thought that Death of a Salesman was very good and got 5 stars from Michael Billington and did transfer to the West End. However with the National and Rufus and his nepotism, the Arts Council should remove every penny of funding. Yes I’m not disputing that. I’m suggesting (I don’t know) that the decision making process was the reverse of what it should have been with Doran first asking Sher if there was any part he wanted to play.
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Post by Jon on Aug 27, 2021 15:58:54 GMT
It's a bit extreme to suggest the National should lose their funding over nepotism as it wouldn't be able to survive in its current form if it did and it's very unlikely to happen either way.
I do think the pandemic has shown up weaknesses in the bigger organisations like the RSC and the National that need to addressed going forward.
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Post by Jan on Aug 27, 2021 16:57:46 GMT
I do think the pandemic has shown up weaknesses in the bigger organisations like the RSC and the National that need to addressed going forward. The point has been mentioned here before, but I think it is striking that the effort theatres have put in to try to recover from the pandemic has been in inverse proportion to the amount of financial help they got. So some of the commercial sector and theatres who got nothing are up an running at full capacity, fringe venues who got a small amount of help are back now, medium sized venues like the Almeida and Donmar were more delayed but have full programmes planned, and the RSC and NT are still limping along at much reduced capacity with several of their theatres closed. Why ? In the RSC's case I think it's simply because they can, for a number of years actually staging productions has seemed to be a low priority activity for them.
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Post by Jon on Aug 27, 2021 17:48:55 GMT
The point has been mentioned here before, but I think it is striking that the effort theatres have put in to try to recover from the pandemic has been in inverse proportion to the amount of financial help they got. So some of the commercial sector and theatres who got nothing are up an running at full capacity, fringe venues who got a small amount of help are back now, medium sized venues like the Almeida and Donmar were more delayed but have full programmes planned, and the RSC and NT are still limping along at much reduced capacity with several of their theatres closed. Why ? In the RSC's case I think it's simply because they can, for a number of years actually staging productions has seemed to be a low priority activity for them. I do understand the frustrations of some of the commercial sector that they didn't get money but at the same time, I'm not sure if it would have a good look if ACE had given grants and loans to the likes of Trafalgar, Andrew Lloyd Webber, Cameron etc but little to no money to the RSC and National.
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Post by oxfordsimon on Aug 27, 2021 19:13:36 GMT
ACE are a huge part of the problem.
Too many ACE decision makers come from the subsidised arts sector and like to support their friends in the industry.
It is nepotism writ large far too often.
If we could strip the arts of nepotism, it would be a better place for everyone.
A world where talent is at the heart of casting. Where shows are funded because their quality and not to meet a tick box agenda that has nothing to do with creating memorable theatre.
If you want to do shows with your mates/family members, do it without public money.
ACE are actively harming the long term viability of our theatre sector by being driven by dogma and nepotism rather that looking after talented creators and performers and audiences who crave great shows.
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Post by cavocado on Aug 27, 2021 19:31:06 GMT
I suppose nepotism has long been tolerated (encouraged?) in the theatre? So although I think Doran and Norris should be well aware of the responsibilities they have in spending public money, and the wider issues about corruption and nepotism/cronyism in public life, maybe the boundaries are blurred because there's a long history of eg Olivier, Hall, Nunn, Caird and others directing their wives/girlfriends in subsidised RSC/NT shows? I think it needs to be the boards and the Arts Council who make it very clear that this is unacceptable.
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Post by cavocado on Aug 27, 2021 19:35:29 GMT
Just read Simon's post about ACE after posting my last comment. Very interesting to read, but how does that change? The Arts Council is presumably controlled by the government, currently not very interested in stamping out cronyism, which is depressing. But I agree - nepotism and cronyism should have no place in the arts (or anywhere really).
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Post by Jon on Aug 27, 2021 19:49:48 GMT
Isn't the point of getting ACE funding is to enable work that simply cannot be done in the commercial sector? It's a tricky balance for organisations at the best of times and I think if the National and/or RSC solely did more crowd pleasers, they'd be strung up by the media. The current criticism is justified but I'd hate to see theatre companies becoming safe and homogeneous rather than take risks.
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Post by oxfordsimon on Aug 27, 2021 20:01:38 GMT
Isn't the point of getting ACE funding is to enable work that simply cannot be done in the commercial sector? It's a tricky balance for organisations at the best of times and I think if the National and/or RSC solely did more crowd pleasers, they'd be strung up by the media. The current criticism is justified but I'd hate to see theatre companies becoming safe and homogeneous rather than take risks. In theory yes. But if we take the Death of a Salesman project, that didn't need public subsidy. That cast would have attracted enough investment to work in the commercial sector. It took public money away from other work that the RSC should have been doing. It was never going to be a long term money spinner for the company. It was a vanity project that should never have been allowed to happen. I would urge people to look at funding decisions made by ACE. There is a huge amount on indulgence going on. That has to stop. ACE can't or won't change. If needs to go.
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Post by Jan on Aug 27, 2021 20:10:15 GMT
Isn't the point of getting ACE funding is to enable work that simply cannot be done in the commercial sector? It's a tricky balance for organisations at the best of times and I think if the National and/or RSC solely did more crowd pleasers, they'd be strung up by the media. The current criticism is justified but I'd hate to see theatre companies becoming safe and homogeneous rather than take risks. The NT already is safe and homogeneous, there’s nothing in its programming that is remotely challenging to its target audience, it takes no artistic risks at all.
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