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Post by partytentdown on May 20, 2021 7:45:53 GMT
I recently re-listened to this cast recording and it struck me how uncomfortable some of the lyrics are, even 15-20 years on from its debut. Would it be possible to stage this now, with cast members chanting things like "chick with a dick with a heart" and "kill all gays!"? Granted the show is a satire mocking the very people who would chant such things on a TV show, but it struck me that the very people who might have campaigned to make sure this show WASN'T cancelled back in the day might now be campaigning against some of its content and characterisations. Sure, the people who are 'mocked' in the show (the trans character, the large lady who wants to be a pole dancer etc) are the ones who ultimately show they are the most loving and genuine, but would the shock value of their treatment be just too much in today's world?
Discuss!
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Post by ceebee on May 20, 2021 7:58:43 GMT
I doubt it could. It was pretty shocking when it came out but evolution has moved so quickly that what might once have been badged as satirical might now risk deeply offending. I don't like today's cancel culture, but if it gives minorities a fairer share of voice and the right to live their lives the way they choose or are biologically built, then it can't be a bad thing. The fact that BOM is having rewrites says a lot about producers and writers having a social conscience and a moral compass.
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Post by robertb213 on May 20, 2021 8:07:50 GMT
Manchester Hope Mill did a production a couple of years ago. I didn't find it shocking or offensive, I just didn't think it was very good!
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Post by Being Alive on May 20, 2021 8:20:15 GMT
Have heard there's plans for another production of it soon...can't remember where but I still think it's fine to do?
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Post by max on May 20, 2021 8:20:47 GMT
Dating back to the Alf Garnett argument - there's a legitimate concern that the people who are the target of the comic swipe don't 'get it' and take the satire on them as lauding and encouraging their views instead. Brilliant as Jonny Speight could be, I definitely feel 'Til Death....' kidded itself that it wasn't fuelling hatred, and was being mindful enough of how it dealt with the gelignite of satire. When Jerry Springer The Opera' played in a theatre, the British equivalent of characters Dwight and Tremont weren't that likely to be in the audience (though that's not a good thing), so this was less likely to be an issue. I think what's changed in 15-20 years is the rise of social media. So even if the satire is likely to be viewed only by people who do 'get it', some will grab the moment to demonstrate ultra sensitivity and protectiveness that frankly isn't needed. Then we end up having a debate about the response, rather than the artistic work itself.
Caveats to the above: Back in the day JSTO was broadcast on mainstream TV. Plus, apparently lovely middle class liberal theatre goers can be prejudiced too obvs, just more suave about it....!
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Post by Someone in a tree on May 20, 2021 8:24:55 GMT
Manchester Hope Mill did a production a couple of years ago. I didn't find it shocking or offensive, I just didn't think it was very good! I agree. I didnt see in Manchester but years ago at the NT. I liked the score, I wasn't offended just bored as the book really went on. Regarding the "offensive" bits - doesn't it mock lots of different groups and so therefore it's "fine"? |
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Post by max on May 20, 2021 8:30:50 GMT
Manchester Hope Mill did a production a couple of years ago. I didn't find it shocking or offensive, I just didn't think it was very good! I agree. I didnt see in Manchester but years ago at the NT. I liked the score, I wasn't offended just bored as the book really went on. Regarding the "offensive" bits - doesn't it mock lots of different groups and so therefore it's "fine"? It was brilliant at Battersea Arts Centre - I saw it when they had Act 1 and some fragment towards Act 2. When it went to the National Theatre it grew a bit bloated I agree with an over-involved Act 2. I also felt the satire dissipated because on a huge stage, with a big cast, and mega production values, it actually felt grander than the thing it was satirising. BAC felt like it was punching up cheekily; NT edged towards punching down loftily. |
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Post by BurlyBeaR on May 20, 2021 8:47:48 GMT
Manchester Hope Mill did a production a couple of years ago. I didn't find it shocking or offensive, I just didn't think it was very good! Dreadful. Interval walk out for me! They tried to introduce some social media elements to the staging if I remember correctly. Singing (badly) through (badly made) human sized mobile phone screens. It was a mess. |
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Post by robertb213 on May 20, 2021 8:55:20 GMT
If I'd lived closer I probably would've left at the interval too, but I'd travelled from Northants so I felt I had to stick it out!
There just weren't any good songs in it. The Book Of Mormon is at least hummable pretty much all the way through!
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Post by partytentdown on May 20, 2021 9:46:52 GMT
Regarding the "offensive" bits - doesn't it mock lots of different groups and so therefore it's "fine"? This is an argument that used to get bandied about a lot for shows like this and 'The Producers' i.e. it's an "equally opportunity offender" - the problem, I think, is that declaration is made by its cis white male creators (I assume - I don't know much about them) - same for The Producers, The Book of Mormon, etc. So is it still appropriate for the majority group to be mocking minorities? Can a cis white man be allowed to write a song taking the piss out of (not just taking the piss out of, but an actual baying mob chanting abuse at them, for laughs) a trans or gay character, or a woman? I'm not sure where I stand on this, but it's food for thought. |
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Post by max on May 20, 2021 9:49:42 GMT
I seem to recall the main controversy - and in some cases even protests outside theatres - was the depiction of Jesus wearing a nappy.In this jaded world would this raise an eyebrow today bearing in mind there were riots outside Jesus Christ Superstar when first staged.The "problem" with JERRY SPRINGER THE OPERA is being relevant at a particular time and sometimes satire doesn't age well.Since the "sacking" of Jeremy Kyle I don't think there's that sort of programme on TV nowadays.Perhaps NAKED ATTRACTION - THE OPERA as an suitable alternative? The argument 'Would you depict the Prophet Muhammud the way you have Jesus?' was a bit of slam dunk that defenders of satire and free speech couldn't really answer. Well they could, but the answer 'No' didn't really get them where they wanted to be with the free speech argument. |
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Post by max on May 20, 2021 9:54:01 GMT
If I'd lived closer I probably would've left at the interval too, but I'd travelled from Northants so I felt I had to stick it out! There just weren't any good songs in it. The Book Of Mormon is at least hummable pretty much all the way through! Not many standalone songs, true, but Alison Jiear singing 'I Just Wanna F**kking Dance' was a good one wasn't it? One good song? ; ) |
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Post by partytentdown on May 20, 2021 10:28:32 GMT
If I'd lived closer I probably would've left at the interval too, but I'd travelled from Northants so I felt I had to stick it out! There just weren't any good songs in it. The Book Of Mormon is at least hummable pretty much all the way through! Not many standalone songs, true, but Alison Jiear singing 'I Just Wanna F**kking Dance' was a good one wasn't it? One good song? ; ) And it gave birth to this remix/video which I have seen played in many a dodgy gay bar over the years |
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Post by ThereWillBeSun on May 20, 2021 13:31:25 GMT
Not many standalone songs, true, but Alison Jiear singing 'I Just Wanna F**kking Dance' was a good one wasn't it? One good song? ; ) And it gave birth to this remix/video which I have seen played in many a dodgy gay bar over the years such a bopppppp! |
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Post by marob on May 20, 2021 14:03:19 GMT
I seem to recall the main controversy - and in some cases even protests outside theatres - was the depiction of Jesus wearing a nappy.In this jaded world would this raise an eyebrow today bearing in mind there were riots outside Jesus Christ Superstar when first staged.The "problem" with JERRY SPRINGER THE OPERA is being relevant at a particular time and sometimes satire doesn't age well.Since the "sacking" of Jeremy Kyle I don't think there's that sort of programme on TV nowadays.Perhaps NAKED ATTRACTION - THE OPERA as an suitable alternative? I remember there was also a lot of fuss made about the swearing before it was shown on BBC2, particularly when Satan appears with a chorus singing something like “What a c**t, what a c**t, what a c**ting c**ting c**ting c**ting c**t.” It reminds me of that bit from Father Ted where they protest outside a cinema and end up selling more tickets, because I doubt I’d have even heard of it if not for Christian Voice or whoever trying to ban it from the BBC. I very much doubt they would show it nowadays. |
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Post by Peter on May 20, 2021 18:37:05 GMT
I seem to recall the main controversy - and in some cases even protests outside theatres - was the depiction of Jesus wearing a nappy.In this jaded world would this raise an eyebrow today bearing in mind there were riots outside Jesus Christ Superstar when first staged.The "problem" with JERRY SPRINGER THE OPERA is being relevant at a particular time and sometimes satire doesn't age well.Since the "sacking" of Jeremy Kyle I don't think there's that sort of programme on TV nowadays.Perhaps NAKED ATTRACTION - THE OPERA as an suitable alternative? I remember there was also a lot of fuss made about the swearing before it was shown on BBC2, particularly when Satan appears with a chorus singing something like “What a c**t, what a c**t, what a c**ting c**ting c**ting c**ting c**t.” It reminds me of that bit from Father Ted where they protest outside a cinema and end up selling more tickets, because I doubt I’d have even heard of it if not for Christian Voice or whoever trying to ban it from the BBC. I very much doubt they would show it nowadays. It (predictably) got the Daily Mail lathered up - despite only getting bothered when it was to be on the BBC - and, in typical fashion, their article counted up all the swear words in the show - but counted a single “c**t” sung by the chorus as thirty as there were thirty people singing it! |
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Post by alece10 on May 20, 2021 20:42:41 GMT
Fond memories of bopping along to this in Centre Stage Jumbo Centre Gran Canaria.Actually this is the first time I've watched it sober! Well I have never heard the remix or seen the video before and that has made my night. How good is that! And Eurovision on the TV. Not camp at all.... |
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Post by danb on May 20, 2021 20:51:11 GMT
There would be no point in mounting something like JSTO these days as real life & current tv has transcended it and is significantly worse. I mean, ‘Naked Attraction’? ‘Dance Moms’? ‘TOWIE’? ‘Jeremy Kyle’? Really really awful.
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Post by richey on May 20, 2021 20:56:00 GMT
Fond memories of bopping along to this in Centre Stage Jumbo Centre Gran Canaria.Actually this is the first time I've watched it sober! There was a brilliant lip syncing video to this filmed at Manchester Pride a few years back. I *may* feature rather prominently with bad dad dancing |
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Post by properjob on May 22, 2021 20:30:11 GMT
I've always loved the show. The orginal production is available on BroadwayHD if anyone wants to actually see it rather than just listen to the sound track.
I think it still asks important questions about reality TV contestants. Are they being exploited or are they being patronised by the people that claim they are being exploited?
I think Dara O'Brien had a great response against the "you wouldn't make jokes about Islam" which was "I don't know anything about Islam, and more importantly neither do you". In the case of Jerry Springer the Opera's orginal staging the 1st act opened with a reproduction of the real Jerry Springer show scrolling warning message about content. The 2nd act opened with a similar message warning that those "without a strong knowledge of Judeo-Christian mythology wouldn't understand it".
The bigger argument is do we want to encourage religons to be less tolerant and scare people into not criticising them or point out when they belive ridiculous things. The thing I found concerning at the time and still do, was that a religious group were allowed to control what other people could watch or the art they could create.
They whipped up an angry mob based on lies. Jesus does not wear a nappy in the show. One of the actors who wears a nappy when he plays one part, also plays Jesus wearing a different costume. Having whipped up an angry mob they then leaked the home addresses of BBC executives.
Because of the above and because I really enjoy it I'm always keen to see it restaged. I very much liked the Hope Mill version espically the way they cleverly repurposed the original line from the opening number "me too" as #metoo
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Post by originalconceptlive on May 22, 2021 23:48:15 GMT
The bigger argument is do we want to encourage religons to be less tolerant and scare people into not criticising them or point out when they belive ridiculous things. The thing I found concerning at the time and still do, was that a religious group were allowed to control what other people could watch or the art they could create. One can debate all kinds of things relating to The Book of Mormon, but I do think the real Mormon church had a wonderfully tolerant response to that show. Matt Stone mentions it here - actually this quote focuses largely on the church's response to a South Park episode, but the point still stands: "They have a pretty good track record when it comes to criticism. We went through it before with our Mormon "South Park" episode. They made a public statement -- mentioning us by name -- that basically said the Bill of Rights that protects our minority religion is the very same one that lets these guys criticize us. I read that and got almost teary. A North American church stood up for freedom." www.chicagotribune.com/entertainment/theater/chi-book-mormon-matt-stone-interview-chicago-tribune-column.htmlAs for Jerry Springer: The Opera, personally I'm not a fan, though I'd be happy for it to be "allowed" to be put on again. But I think that its kind of edgelord humour is, at the very least, extremely out of fashion at the moment. And as I recall - my memory is vague - a lot of the edgy moments seemed to be there for the shock value in and of itself, rather than to make a point; if the show had points to make, they were to be found elsewhere. So I'm not sure if arguments could convincingly be mounted that "In context, such-and-such offensive moment is actually contributing to the show's central thesis" etc. If I were a theatre producer, I wouldn't see this show as a particularly sound business proposition the current climate. |
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2021 7:05:35 GMT
And as I recall - my memory is vague - a lot of the edgy moments seemed to be there for the shock value in and of itself, rather than to make a point; if the show had points to make, they were to be found elsewhere. That was my impression. The show seemed to be trying to shock people just because it could. It put me in mind of TV comedians who fill their stage shows with swearing for no other reason than they don't have to not swear: I don't have a problem with swearing, but when you force it to show you can then the novelty lasts about a minute and then it's just boring. |
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Post by talkingheads on May 23, 2021 7:19:33 GMT
So much of the outrage was orchestrated by people who hadn't even seen the show. If you read Stewart Lee's book, and it's a brilliant insight into the comedy industry, it basically destroyed Lee's career for a long time. He lost a lot of money.
As for the show, I think you could do it now. Extra warnings maybe, but if you go to a show called Jerry Springer: The Opera and are offended I don't know what you were expecting!
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Post by partytentdown on May 23, 2021 8:26:48 GMT
I've always loved the show. The orginal production is available on BroadwayHD if anyone wants to actually see it rather than just listen to the sound track. I think it still asks important questions about reality TV contestants. Are they being exploited or are they being patronised by the people that claim they are being exploited? I think Dara O'Brien had a great response against the "you wouldn't make jokes about Islam" which was "I don't know anything about Islam, and more importantly neither do you". In the case of Jerry Springer the Opera's orginal staging the 1st act opened with a reproduction of the real Jerry Springer show scrolling warning message about content. The 2nd act opened with a similar message warning that those "without a strong knowledge of Judeo-Christian mythology wouldn't understand it". The bigger argument is do we want to encourage religons to be less tolerant and scare people into not criticising them or point out when they belive ridiculous things. The thing I found concerning at the time and still do, was that a religious group were allowed to control what other people could watch or the art they could create. They whipped up an angry mob based on lies. Jesus does not wear a nappy in the show. One of the actors who wears a nappy when he plays one part, also plays Jesus wearing a different costume. Having whipped up an angry mob they then leaked the home addresses of BBC executives. Because of the above and because I really enjoy it I'm always keen to see it restaged. I very much liked the Hope Mill version espically the way they cleverly repurposed the original line from the opening number "me too" as #metoo Regarding Jesus, I'm sure I remember reading an interview that on the night they filmed the show for the BBC, the actress playing the pole dancer (Alison Jiear) added in a gesture which made it look like she was slipping her hand under Jesus's loin cloth (the costume oft-mistaken for a nappy). This had further riled up the protestors and disappointed the writers because she never usually did that in the show but added it for some reason at the filming. Funny what you remember! |
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Post by partytentdown on Aug 22, 2023 7:47:26 GMT
Just listened to an episode of 'The Reunion' on BBC Sounds about this, reuniting the writers and some of the original cast. Really interesting to hear their perspectives 20 years on!
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