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Post by anxiousoctopus on Feb 23, 2023 16:53:13 GMT
I imagine all the Roma characters will be cast with people belonging to that ethnicity to avoid any controversy (especially since I doubt many people could name a single actor belonging to the group - perhaps more than any other instance it would be especially poor to take away the opportunity from this minority group since they are pretty much non-existent in film, especially in leading roles). Roma people are Indian people mixed with caucasian/aryan people. It is a group that often chooses to live a gypsy lifestyle. What they speak is Romani, which is also an Indian-Aryan language. When it comes to casting, they will either look at Indian, mixed or aryan actors if they want to be historically accurate, or at all races when it doesn't matter (fictional character). The group or lifestyle or choices should have nothing to do with casting. Just as it shouldn't be with any other role or project. I think this has the potential to be a wonderful film, if they embrace the music and artform. There are many people who belong to traveller groups, I’m sure there’s many talented performers who can be found. Europe-wise that could cover Romani, traveller communities and self-named gypsies. The use of the word ‘gypsy’ is a complicated one because it’s widely considered a slur in the USA but in Europe and the UK it seems to depend on the group/individual (Romani, Irish travellers etc.) whether they like the word or not. Also genuinely interested by your use of the word aryan to designate white/non-POC Europeans. I assumed it was seen as a rather dated and loaded term… |
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Post by dan28 on Feb 23, 2023 17:33:45 GMT
There are many people who belong to traveller groups, I’m sure there’s many talented performers who can be found. Europe-wise that could cover Romani, traveller communities and self-named gypsies. The use of the word ‘gypsy’ is a complicated one because it’s widely considered a slur in the USA but in Europe and the UK it seems to depend on the group/individual (Romani, Irish travellers etc.) whether they like the word or not. Also genuinely interested by your use of the word aryan to designate white/non-POC Europeans. I assumed it was seen as a rather dated and loaded term… I think casting has nothing to do with being in a traveller group. That is what acting is for. The business would collapse if we went down that road. In the actual film The Hunchback of the Notre dame it is called "gypsy" and in Victor Hugo's 'The Hunchback of Notre Dame', "gypsies" are a persecuted minority group in 15th century Paris. I think the term in Europe is more common. I also believe it's time and perspective related. There are also films from the 1980's where they say "ladies and gentlemen", a term which some people consider a slur nowadays too. The official, actual world wide used name is Indian-Aryan, which is neutral and based on natural and scientific facts, I don't know about dated or not. Any substitute might raise questions. Personally I find non-poc questionable. As if there is a "default" and "POC". It's also interesting that in many European countries the word "white" doesn't even exist in terms of skin color. The default is people, and there are lighter and darker ones and every person in existence has a certain tint. |
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Post by jj9692 on Feb 23, 2023 19:12:27 GMT
As I type this i am on a hotel room in Belfast. Today I walked past the Grand Opera House and rather excitedly (frustrating if truth be told) a semi-professional production of this is being staged from Mar 7- 11 March. Was meant to say the Belfast Operatic Company were doing this. I'll be watching on 7th March. Has been on my list for years. |
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Post by anthony40 on Feb 23, 2023 20:54:23 GMT
#envy jj9692
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Post by chels on Feb 23, 2023 21:09:45 GMT
Just wanted to interject in terms of casting as someone who actually is Roma, it is an ethnicity and there are ethnic sub groups in that. Some people still travel, some are settled but obviously they're still Romani whether they travel or not. While the original novel, film and musical are questionable with how they handle our culture at best and well...racist at worst, I do enjoy the soundtrack but they definitely should cast actual Roma people to play Roma roles, that's the bare minimum but given how often those roles have been whitewashed my hopes aren't high for that.
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Post by anthony40 on Feb 23, 2023 21:17:48 GMT
I know it's been said on here many times but that case recording is simply glorious.
Even with the song A Guy Like You being cut.
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Post by jj9692 on Feb 23, 2023 21:46:30 GMT
I'll let you know how it is when the time comes |
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Post by dan28 on Feb 23, 2023 22:27:18 GMT
Just wanted to interject in terms of casting as someone who actually is Roma, it is an ethnicity and there are ethnic sub groups in that. Some people still travel, some are settled but obviously they're still Romani whether they travel or not. While the original novel, film and musical are questionable with how they handle our culture at best and well...racist at worst, I do enjoy the soundtrack but they definitely should cast actual Roma people to play Roma roles, that's the bare minimum but given how often those roles have been whitewashed my hopes aren't high for that. Romani is the meaning of Indo-Aryan. Which is a collective noun for mixed people from North India, Pakistan, Nepal, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka, Maldives, Bhutan, and many more, mixed with European people from France, Germany, The Netherlands, Russia, Greece, Spain, Portugal and many more. Mixed for generations and generations over time. So indeed, many, many, many ethnic subgroups. Basically, a bouquet of flowers that consists of all ethnicities of the world. Many of them are completely white. Black Roma is less common but they too exist, for example the children of a Sri Lanka and a black french person. It seems that you want to exclude that? Calling this natural process that has been going on for hundreds of years "washing" is quite disturbing. So, basically, casting Roma means anyone. Anyone who ever had ancestors from these countries, even if it was 900 years ago. Or anyone who can pass for that, which is everyone. |
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Post by bobbievanhusen on Feb 24, 2023 1:42:36 GMT
When it comes to casting, they will either look at Indian, mixed or aryan actors if they want to be historically accurate, or at all races when it doesn't matter (fictional character). If fictional characters are specified as being from a certain background or heritage, you don't think they should be played as such? |
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Post by dan28 on Feb 24, 2023 11:45:45 GMT
When it comes to casting, they will either look at Indian, mixed or aryan actors if they want to be historically accurate, or at all races when it doesn't matter (fictional character). If fictional characters are specified as being from a certain background or heritage, you don't think they should be played as such? No, I think that there is room for freedom and inclusivity in those cases. Such as in the Danish story "The little mermaid", where her background is described as European, blue eyed, etc. Or in "Aladdin", where the fictional character of Jasmine is described as Arabic, played by an English actress with (partial) Indian roots. "played as such" is what happened in the live action Aladdin and it worked. That is something different than "played by such". That is not necessary when it can be played as such in my opinion, in a fictional story. Especially nowadays, many generations further where everything is so mixed. Especially with something like Roma, which consists of white, mixed, black and any color in the world, with ancestors of every heritage, country and color. The conditions of forced separation don't exist anymore. I get it when people want to keep practicing their traditions, but that has nothing to do with nature, race and casting. For voice acting it doesn't matter at all, the Asian Lea Salonga was wonderful as the singing voice of Jasmine and Linda Larkin was great as the speaking voice. |
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Post by chels on Feb 25, 2023 18:55:07 GMT
Just wanted to interject in terms of casting as someone who actually is Roma, it is an ethnicity and there are ethnic sub groups in that. Some people still travel, some are settled but obviously they're still Romani whether they travel or not. While the original novel, film and musical are questionable with how they handle our culture at best and well...racist at worst, I do enjoy the soundtrack but they definitely should cast actual Roma people to play Roma roles, that's the bare minimum but given how often those roles have been whitewashed my hopes aren't high for that. Romani is the meaning of Indo-Aryan. Which is a collective noun for mixed people from North India, Pakistan, Nepal, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka, Maldives, Bhutan, and many more, mixed with European people from France, Germany, The Netherlands, Russia, Greece, Spain, Portugal and many more. Mixed for generations and generations over time. So indeed, many, many, many ethnic subgroups. Basically, a bouquet of flowers that consists of all ethnicities of the world. Many of them are completely white. Black Roma is less common but they too exist, for example the children of a Sri Lanka and a black french person. It seems that you want to exclude that? Calling this natural process that has been going on for hundreds of years "washing" is quite disturbing. So, basically, casting Roma means anyone. Anyone who ever had ancestors from these countries, even if it was 900 years ago. Or anyone who can pass for that, which is everyone. While I appreciate what you might be trying to say, I'm Roma and I would prefer that you don't try to explain my own ethnicity and culture to me? Calling my concern for Roma roles primarily going to not Roma people 'disturbing' is not a term I like and I'll put it this way, characters who are Roma are very frequently played by actors who are not Roma. Scarlet Witch, Dr Doom, Estella Havisham, Heathcliff from Wuthering Heights etc etc. I can think of one Roma actress playing a Roma character on screen in mainstream media (Gratiela Brancusi in 1883) recently but for the most part it's been white actors. Usually playing out some racist stereotype (coin belts on the head, thieves and criminals, overuse of 'gypsy', oversexualisation especially of women), I know for Roma people we have larger irl concerns at the moment but I know as a child I would have appreciated seeing someone like me on screen who wasn't a person who can simply take that off at the end of the day. Here's an article about the whitewashing in WandaVision written by Jessica Reidy for example. There are many Roma actors out there, I'd hazard an educated guess that there are more than a few great singers among them who could do excellently with the score. We haven't heard about them in mainstream because they haven't been given opportunities to get those roles and they should. In terms of Disney live action movies, Ariel doesn't have a specific ethnicity given to her that has an important part in the story while the original story is Danish, she's a fictional mermaid. Whereas Esmeralda does have an ethnicity given to her, she's Roma (if we're talking about subgroups she's not given one so she could be Sinti, she could be Kalderash, Polska Roma etc) but the story is about the oppression she faces because of the ethnicity she is.8 |
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Post by FairyGodmother on Feb 27, 2023 0:11:23 GMT
To make it more complicated, Esmeralda isn't actually ethnically Roma, but Quasimodo is! She's French, but swapped as a baby with Quasimodo.
She'd be culturally Roma though, while Quasimodo is ethnically Roma but not raised as one.
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Post by dan28 on Feb 28, 2023 23:57:03 GMT
characters who are Roma are very frequently played by actors who are not Roma. I can think of one Roma actress playing a Roma character on screen in mainstream media (Gratiela Brancusi in 1883) recently but for the most part it's been white actors. Esmeralda does have an ethnicity given to her, she's Roma (if we're talking about subgroups she's not given one so she could be Sinti, she could be Kalderash, Polska Roma etc) Thanks for your reply! My point is that Roma is not a race. Many Roma people are white, black and everything in between. Esmeralda can be played by a Polish woman indeed, or by the child of a white Polish couple. The fact is that Roma consists of all ethnicities. Casting is about that, not about traditions or culture. Like you say yourself, she could be anything. So really, it would be impossible to choose 1 ethnicity/race. You can't exclude certain skin colors as Roma because you don't like the idea of it existing. |
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Post by dan28 on Mar 1, 2023 0:01:04 GMT
To make it more complicated, Esmeralda isn't actually ethnically Roma, but Quasimodo is! She's French, but swapped as a baby with Quasimodo. She'd be culturally Roma though, while Quasimodo is ethnically Roma but not raised as one. Thank you, that is my whole point. She was only raised Roma. And casting is not about cultural traditions. Quasimodo was raised differently. The color of the skin is the last thing that matters in this casting. |
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Post by anxiousoctopus on Mar 1, 2023 12:16:48 GMT
To make it more complicated, Esmeralda isn't actually ethnically Roma, but Quasimodo is! She's French, but swapped as a baby with Quasimodo. She'd be culturally Roma though, while Quasimodo is ethnically Roma but not raised as one. If it’s an adaptation of the book that is true! But if it’s one of the Disney live-action remake then she is Roma both ethnically and culturally (Disney obviously cut A LOT of book subplots for simplicity - including the character of Pierre Gringoire, Quasi and Esmerelda’s parentage, Frollo’s church business and brother, as well as like 95% of the death count!). It’s an interesting point though, I’d forgotten that! Also in the opening scene we see Quasimodo’s mother was also Roma, so that complicates the conversation even more! |
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Post by anthony40 on Mar 1, 2023 12:45:58 GMT
In the stage adaptation I saw, Frollo's brother Djan (I think his name was) is seen.
It's all explained in the prologue of the cast recording. Quasimodo is Djan's son after a reckless affair, left to Follo's care on his deathbed and it's because of his deformities that Frollo locks Quasimodo up in the bell tower, out of sight.
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Post by couldileaveyou on Mar 1, 2023 12:59:22 GMT
In the stage adaptation I saw, Frollo's brother Djan (I think his name was) is seen. It's all explained in the prologue of the cast recording. Quasimodo is Djan's son after a reckless affair, left to Follo's care on his deathbed and it's because of his deformities that Frollo locks Quasimodo up in the bell tower, out of sight. Jehan |
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Post by anthony40 on Mar 1, 2023 13:02:51 GMT
In the stage adaptation I saw, Frollo's brother Djan (I think his name was) is seen. It's all explained in the prologue of the cast recording. Quasimodo is Djan's son after a reckless affair, left to Follo's care on his deathbed and it's because of his deformities that Frollo locks Quasimodo up in the bell tower, out of sight. Jehan That's it! Jehan. |
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Post by dan28 on Mar 1, 2023 14:44:31 GMT
To make it more complicated, Esmeralda isn't actually ethnically Roma, but Quasimodo is! She's French, but swapped as a baby with Quasimodo. She'd be culturally Roma though, while Quasimodo is ethnically Roma but not raised as one. If it’s an adaptation of the book that is true! But if it’s one of the Disney live-action remake.... Also in the opening scene we see Quasimodo’s mother was also Roma, so that complicates the conversation even more! So it looks like there is a hint to it in the Disney classic too. Also, the live-action remakes usually have more background stories (the prince having a weekly ball in beauty and the Beast, the prince's mother and background, Jasmine's best friend in Aladdin, etc). |
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Post by FairyGodmother on Mar 3, 2023 16:04:15 GMT
To make it more complicated, Esmeralda isn't actually ethnically Roma, but Quasimodo is! She's French, but swapped as a baby with Quasimodo. She'd be culturally Roma though, while Quasimodo is ethnically Roma but not raised as one. If it’s an adaptation of the book that is true! But if it’s one of the Disney live-action remake then she is Roma both ethnically and culturally (Disney obviously cut A LOT of book subplots for simplicity - including the character of Pierre Gringoire, Quasi and Esmerelda’s parentage, Frollo’s church business and brother, as well as like 95% of the death count!). It’s an interesting point though, I’d forgotten that! Also in the opening scene we see Quasimodo’s mother was also Roma, so that complicates the conversation even more! I've definitely read the book more than seen the film, so I'm mixing elements up not quite knowing where they've come from! |
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Post by jj9692 on Mar 7, 2023 22:54:57 GMT
Just home from the opening night Belfast Operatic Company's production. If this is the closest I will ever get to seeing a full professional production of this show I will be pleased.
Played similarly to what can be seen in the American La Jolla and Playhouse versions. Right down to an almost aimilar set with a choir sitting within it.
The cast did a great job, plagued with a few mic issues throughout the night, but I wouldn't take any marks off for that considering it was their first night in front of an audience.
One odd bit of direction during God Help The Outcasts when the music stopped
just before climax of the song. Thought we were about to get a show stop until I realised the ensemble were doing sign language towards Quasimodo, and then after about 6 seconds of pure silence it was BAM "I ask for nothing I can get by..."
A very enjoyable performance, and I would happily go an see anything featuring the guy playing Quasi. His acting and singing were both superb.
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Post by anthony40 on Mar 8, 2023 11:31:29 GMT
#envy
Jeez I wish i was there to witness this and also sit in this venue.
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Post by anthony40 on Mar 20, 2023 17:10:14 GMT
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Post by theatrelover123 on Mar 20, 2023 20:21:02 GMT
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Post by theatrelover123 on Mar 20, 2023 20:22:45 GMT
Gal Gadot is playing the Evil Queen in the live action musical version of Snow White though |
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