6 pm curfew for men

So it starts. Cressida Dick does not intend to resign. Genuinely, what does it take for a shamed person in power to resign these days?

It has to start way before University. More like pre school.

Is it really an issue of education, we all know what is right or wrong including the perpetrators.

A lads night out, which most if not all adolescent men have partaken, the alpha male is the one considered a Jack the lad, the one lauded by the group and is the one likely to continue this behaviour into adulthood as it comes to define that person.

If ever fellow took delight in swigging, gigging, kissing, drinking, fighting
Damme, I’ll be bold to say that Jack’s the lad.

This is from the first recorded use of Jack the lad in the 1840’s and the behaviour continues to be a male trait that is considered manly and underlines why it is so difficult to eradicate as the behaviour is ingrained in our psyche.


Until we (men) make this behaviour passé in a similar way as smoking it will continue, the next time your mate behaves inappropriately it must not be lauded but challenged and at the moment that is something most men will not do as the shy and introverted are appreciative as these men provide opportunities to meet and talk to women.

Yes, I would very much like to see this "lad" behaviour stamped out and socially looked down on the way we do other toxic behaviours such as smoking. And it probably would lower the cases of sexual assault in bars/inappropriate behaviour/catcalls etc.

It wouldn't necessarily have helped in a case such as Sarah Everard's though, as this was not a drunk guy in a bar behaving badly who needed to do better. This was a cold, calculating rapist and murderer. How do you deter crime on that scale?

I think the analogy to smoking is very pertinent. Used to be “cool” but is now seen by the majority as antisocial behaviour.

I think changing laddish behaviour is much tougher but needs the same type of attrition over time. And education is the key. My son’s generation is light years ahead of mine because of how he was taught by university courses or enlightened friends or many other ways. But the journey continues. We must push things further.

Like smoking there will be a tipping point. My wife is asthmatic and for much of her life she has to modify her behaviour to allow smokers to smoke (eg never going in a pub). This is where we are with women - they have to modify their behaviour because of some men’s actions. We need to turn this on it’s head so women can act normally and it’s men who have been guided to modify their behaviour. It’s not easy and it won’t be perfect but it’ll be a damn sight fairer than it is now.

While women are still scared to walk out at night we need to find more ways to change men’s behaviour. That’s done by a steady drip of education - conversation, training, statistics, debate, protest, fatherly chats, shaming and calling out bad behaviour etc etc

I agree with this. From what I remember reading, most rapes are not the stranger dragging a woman into the bushes, but are done by dates, partners, acquaintances, etc. That's where education and societal shaming can help. In the US, a movement called "incel" gained some publicity a few years ago... these were "involuntary celibates", many of whom convinced themselves that women "owe" them sex.

This is exactly right. In some ways, women modifying their behavior to avoid violence is like all of us modifying our behavior to avoid COVID-19. We can't know if the person next to us on the Tube is a carrier or not, so we wear a mask and keep our distance. Our survival could depend on treating that (probably perfectly healthy) person as a threat.

Seconded ^

At the end of the day. If you're not a woman (including trans) - you have no idea what we go through. No idea. Men need to listen, challenge others and be allies. The 'not all men' is a redundant statement. Don't pretend to relate to what we have to go through. You will never know.

I don't think the issue is whether you have personally been sexually harassed as a woman, but that the fear of being a victim (of harassment, or violence, or robbery) permeates the lives and influences the behavior of most women I know. Granted, the concern about general violence against women might be a greater concern in the US, but it's not unknown in the UK.

>>I can only assume this is because I am plain & men aren't interested in me.<<
I'm sorry to see you think that. While some harassment is triggered by a woman's looks or dress, elderly nuns have been raped, so sometimes the perpetrators just want to pick on someone they feel they can victimize.

Yes, I agree.  It's sad, but in a way it's very liberating to get older as a woman, because a lot of that 'background' harassment just falls away.  I've heard some women describe it as becoming invisible, but it is one less thing to have to put up with.

@prof. MM Yeah I think Naga gets a lot of crap for being not just a woman, but a black woman. You get a similar ridiculous reaction to anything Diane Abbot does, only the media joins in on slagging her off.

Ben Thompson tends to laugh at stuff a lot when he’s presenting too, but that never seems to cause any fuss. I can’t help wondering would that still be the case if it was more obvious that he’s gay.

Given the levels of aggression toward women (in this case), we're not talking about 'original' guilt, we're talking about current guilt. And no, not all men are tainted with it, but is it enough to not be guilty of such behavior oneself? Perhaps guys not going along with "locker room talk" or casual sexism/misogynism would help send a message that this is unacceptable.