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Post by inthenose on Aug 1, 2022 14:24:39 GMT
^ In fairness, we can value different opinions based on our own judgement. Nobody should be telling another person their view is irrelevant, that’s up to the reader to decide.
I’ve really disliked many zeitgeisty shows which have done phenomenally well critically and commercially. I didn’t think “The Da Vinci Code” was very well written, but that book sold over 80 million copies.
Your argument is one step away from the classic “well, YOU do it better”.
Is everyone looking forward to my new production of Stranger Things: The Musical? It features the music of Kate Bush (I haven’t cleared it with her lawyers yet, but I’m sure it’ll be fine).
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Post by eulenspiegel on Aug 1, 2022 14:27:12 GMT
BurlyBeaR a bit more than ALW Andrew Lloyd Webber'S CINDERELLA. ... Burt Bacharach AND Steven Sater'S SOME LOVERS. ... GIRL FROM THE NORTH COUNTRY. ... LES MISÉRABLES: THE STAGED CONCERT (THE SENSATIONAL 2020 LIVE RECORDING) ... Stephen Schwartz'S SNAPSHOTS. ... THE UNOFFICIAL BRIDGERTON MUSICAL. and I am pretty sure it was a landslide victory
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Post by inthenose on Aug 1, 2022 14:28:34 GMT
BurlyBeaR a bit more than ALW Andrew Lloyd Webber'S CINDERELLA. ... Burt Bacharach AND Steven Sater'S SOME LOVERS. ... GIRL FROM THE NORTH COUNTRY. ... LES MISÉRABLES: THE STAGED CONCERT (THE SENSATIONAL 2020 LIVE RECORDING) ... Stephen Schwartz'S SNAPSHOTS. ... THE UNOFFICIAL BRIDGERTON MUSICAL. and I am pretty sure it was a landslide victory Your “spiel” is making me root for Andrew Lloyd Webber. Something I never thought I’d say again in his lifetime, at least. |
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Post by eulenspiegel on Aug 1, 2022 14:42:35 GMT
^ In fairness, we can value different opinions based on our own judgement. Nobody should be telling another person their view is irrelevant, that’s up to the reader to decide. I’ve really disliked many zeitgeisty shows which have done phenomenally well critically and commercially. I didn’t think “The Da Vinci Code” was very well written, but that book sold over 80 million copies. Your argument is one step away from the classic “well, YOU do it better”. Is everyone looking forward to my new production of Stranger Things: The Musical? It features the music of Kate Bush (I haven’t cleared it with her lawyers yet, but I’m sure it’ll be fine). You are correct - I could have said „Do it better“ Because your and BurlyBeaR approach is the attidude often seen in musical forums - especially in piano forums Untalented or mediocre members are rating professional musicians - Although never having own success - often depressed by own failure - they post as if they were Mozart/ Beethoven - every piano forum has its Lang Lang Thread all our comments are irelevant - there are no real talented people in any of these forums |
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Post by Being Alive on Aug 1, 2022 15:02:31 GMT
Whilst I disagree with a lot of what both @burlybear and inthenose have said on this (let's be real the Bear and I will agree on something when Hell freezes over!) but "all our comments are irelevant - there are no real talented people in any of these forums" is really unnecessary and actually not true... We know for a fact that people in the industry who are talented and influential watch this board (and even post!) so that sweeping generalisation is just inaccurate. |
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Post by WireHangers on Aug 1, 2022 15:08:18 GMT
Reading all this makes me wonder how the producers of this little number are feeling currently  as long as they don't wholesale steal lines from the tv series i'm sure they'll be fine. Real events covered in a documentary can't be classed as intellectual property. Interested to see the details of licensing agreement Netflix offered and the musical creators rejected. Feel like that's a missing puzzle piece here. That’s quite literally what the lawsuit is about and what the creators of the Netflix show are taking issue with, they have used entire chunks of dialogue from the show verbatim. |
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Post by cezbear on Aug 1, 2022 15:13:36 GMT
Not only are comments from members here relevant, I'd argue they're MORE relevant than awards judges or whoever it was - we are the ones buying the tickets, it's our bums on seats. Grammy judge #3 or whoever is not going to be the one paying to see this.
I don't know if it's intentional rudeness or something else at play, but maybe don't dismiss forum members as irrelevant, mediocre, talentless, etc. when a. you have no idea whether or not that's true, and b. you make little effort to engage anywhere other than pimping this show thread for all it's worth.
I mean, agree, disagree, whatever, but if you don't have any respect for the people's opinions on the forum you're posting to, maybe post somewhere more to your liking?
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Post by fiyerorocher on Aug 1, 2022 15:33:29 GMT
You are correct - I could have said „Do it better“ Except the core of the discussion here is not 'I could do it better', it's 'no one should have done it at all without licensing agreements with Netflix'. It doesn't matter if what they wrote is pure gold or utter trash - either way, they're being sued because what they did was most likely illegal. |
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Post by ceebee on Aug 1, 2022 17:13:58 GMT
^ In fairness, we can value different opinions based on our own judgement. Nobody should be telling another person their view is irrelevant, that’s up to the reader to decide. I’ve really disliked many zeitgeisty shows which have done phenomenally well critically and commercially. I didn’t think “The Da Vinci Code” was very well written, but that book sold over 80 million copies. Your argument is one step away from the classic “well, YOU do it better”. Is everyone looking forward to my new production of Stranger Things: The Musical? It features the music of Kate Bush (I haven’t cleared it with her lawyers yet, but I’m sure it’ll be fine). You are correct - I could have said „Do it better“ Because your and BurlyBeaR approach is the attidude often seen in musical forums - especially in piano forums Untalented or mediocre members are rating professional musicians - Although never having own success - often depressed by own failure - they post as if they were Mozart/ Beethoven - every piano forum has its Lang Lang Thread all our comments are irelevant - there are no real talented people in any of these forums You really have NO idea what you are talking about. Speak for yourself when it comes to talent - you'd be surprised who reads and contributes on this board. But then you've ramped up this show for a while now, despite the obvious IP theft. |
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Post by BurlyBeaR on Aug 1, 2022 18:02:08 GMT
Before this escalates, let’s just agree to disagree with humour and civility please. I really don’t care that someone on the internet calls my opinion irrelevant or badges me as untalented or mediocre. People’s tastes and opinions on this forum speak for themselves. All are valid and diminishing that is pretty small minded.
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Post by Jon on Aug 1, 2022 19:07:51 GMT
I do find it odd that someone would create an account on here but only use it to promote Barlow and Bear and their project.
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Post by Being Alive on Aug 1, 2022 21:46:21 GMT
I do find it odd that someone would create an account on here but only use it to promote Barlow and Bear and their project. ...HIGHLY suspect 🧐 |
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Post by eulenspiegel on Aug 2, 2022 1:49:27 GMT
Statement by an US IP Prof...see also text btw. I did not want to promote anything...I just had a feeling in January 2021 that the musical should be interesting for a UK musical forum...and as it turned out it would be world class as I thought... btw. I only posted here about it when already Oscar/Tony Award winning composers were fans of the project. .. also watched the streams ...e.g. Justin Paul Oh and I just learned that most of the haters seem to be former Cinderella employees... „If ALW /Cinderella had won the Grammy...he would not have stopped it“ lol http://instagr.am/p/Cgs6FJ0l_aF |
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Post by inthenose on Aug 2, 2022 2:25:31 GMT
How about we just completely ignore this thread? I know I’m personally never going to open it again after this post. Reading back from page one to here… it just feels very strange.
Very commercially strange. What I will say is I could’ve done the job ten times better. Of course I’d want actual paying.
If the aim of this is to make everyone hate Barlow and Bear through association it’s starting to work.
Bye!
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Post by austink on Aug 2, 2022 5:42:52 GMT
Avoiding the questions on the quality of the work, as a lawyer who studied IP and has worked in the music licensing space in the past, it’s going to be challenging to claim this is fair use. The professor on his other post takes a more academic approach, which is fine and good for a brush up on basics but they would be stretching the limits of what is good understanding and acceptable use of the concept as this is not a narrow usage of underlying copyrighted work. Noting they they were involved in a licensing agreement that would be very clear in specifying limits of their license, no decently drafted agreement would have left this unclear to allow an implied license. Wish they well but their best hope will be a settlement but I think Netflix is not going to care about some unhappy musical theatre people compared to the larger investment they have made in the series
Also remember we still cannot have the Lippa Wild Party in the U.K. for the same reason. 😬
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Post by FairyGodmother on Aug 2, 2022 7:33:43 GMT
I do find it odd that someone would create an account on here but only use it to promote Barlow and Bear and their project. Do you think? There are some very "single issue" Wicked and SiX fans out there... |
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Post by eulenspiegel on Aug 2, 2022 9:38:51 GMT
Avoiding the questions on the quality of the work, as a lawyer who studied IP and has worked in the music licensing space in the past, it’s going to be challenging to claim this is fair use. The professor on his other post takes a more academic approach, which is fine and good for a brush up on basics but they would be stretching the limits of what is good understanding and acceptable use of the concept as this is not a narrow usage of underlying copyrighted work. Noting they they were involved in a licensing agreement that would be very clear in specifying limits of their license, no decently drafted agreement would have left this unclear to allow an implied license. Wish they well but their best hope will be a settlement but I think Netflix is not going to care about some unhappy musical theatre people compared to the larger investment they have made in the series Also remember we still cannot have the Lippa Wild Party in the U.K. for the same reason. 😬 Longer statement I think a New York Law School Professor knows what he is talking about www.instagram.com/reel/Cgva9nslVre/?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y= |
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Post by fiyerorocher on Aug 2, 2022 9:45:11 GMT
Is it really likely that this fan made musical encouraged more people to watch Bridgerton? I find it hard to believe that's the case in any substantial numbers. Also pretty difficult to prove - even if they surveyed people who watch the show, the scope for people lying in an attempt to support the musical would render the results meaningless. Most people I know are familiar with the Netflix show, but far, far fewer (even in the world of musical theatre) are familiar with the unofficial musical.
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Post by stuartmcd on Aug 2, 2022 9:55:58 GMT
Avoiding the questions on the quality of the work, as a lawyer who studied IP and has worked in the music licensing space in the past, it’s going to be challenging to claim this is fair use. The professor on his other post takes a more academic approach, which is fine and good for a brush up on basics but they would be stretching the limits of what is good understanding and acceptable use of the concept as this is not a narrow usage of underlying copyrighted work. Noting they they were involved in a licensing agreement that would be very clear in specifying limits of their license, no decently drafted agreement would have left this unclear to allow an implied license. Wish they well but their best hope will be a settlement but I think Netflix is not going to care about some unhappy musical theatre people compared to the larger investment they have made in the series Also remember we still cannot have the Lippa Wild Party in the U.K. for the same reason. 😬 Longer statement I think a New York Law School Professor knows what he is talking about www.instagram.com/reel/Cgva9nslVre/?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y=He is just pointing out a defence option that the composers could try to use but no where does he state that they are in the right or that they would win. It’s an interesting video and a solid explanation but he is just simply saying what path the composers could go down to try and get out of this. |
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Post by austink on Aug 2, 2022 9:59:56 GMT
Exactly. I am not saying that his video is not right but it is just going to the basics of copyright fair use without a detailed assessment of the case itself. Everyone tries to claim “fair use” and “parody” when they don’t have a license to use the work. Few are successful particularly when you lift a material amount of underlying source material. Also, he is an adjunct professor at NYU not a full time professor. He is just pointing out a defence option that the composers could try to use but no where does he state that they are in the right or that they would win. It’s an interesting video and a solid explanation but he is just simply saying what path the composers could go down to try and get out of this. |
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Post by WireHangers on Aug 2, 2022 12:22:26 GMT
^ In fairness, we can value different opinions based on our own judgement. Nobody should be telling another person their view is irrelevant, that’s up to the reader to decide. I’ve really disliked many zeitgeisty shows which have done phenomenally well critically and commercially. I didn’t think “The Da Vinci Code” was very well written, but that book sold over 80 million copies. Your argument is one step away from the classic “well, YOU do it better”. Is everyone looking forward to my new production of Stranger Things: The Musical? It features the music of Kate Bush (I haven’t cleared it with her lawyers yet, but I’m sure it’ll be fine). You are correct - I could have said „Do it better“ Because your and BurlyBeaR approach is the attidude often seen in musical forums - especially in piano forums Untalented or mediocre members are rating professional musicians - Although never having own success - often depressed by own failure - they post as if they were Mozart/ Beethoven - every piano forum has its Lang Lang Thread all our comments are irelevant - there are no real talented people in any of these forums Isaac Hesketh, is that you? |
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Post by kathryn on Aug 2, 2022 12:55:29 GMT
Is it really likely that this fan made musical encouraged more people to watch Bridgerton? I find it hard to believe that's the case in any substantial numbers. Also pretty difficult to prove - even if they surveyed people who watch the show, the scope for people lying in an attempt to support the musical would render the results meaningless. Most people I know are familiar with the Netflix show, but far, far fewer (even in the world of musical theatre) are familiar with the unofficial musical. It’s incredibly unlikely that anyone who was interested in Bridgerton the musical was unaware of the show to start with. |
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Post by kathryn on Aug 2, 2022 13:07:13 GMT
Exactly. I am not saying that his video is not right but it is just going to the basics of copyright fair use without a detailed assessment of the case itself. Everyone tries to claim “fair use” and “parody” when they don’t have a license to use the work. Few are successful particularly when you lift a material amount of underlying source material. Also, he is an adjunct professor at NYU not a full time professor. He is just pointing out a defence option that the composers could try to use but no where does he state that they are in the right or that they would win. It’s an interesting video and a solid explanation but he is just simply saying what path the composers could go down to try and get out of this. Indeed, just because you can argue a case doesn’t mean that the argument would convince a court. The point of copyright law is to protect IP owners so that they can make money from their work. The principle behind ‘Fair use’ is fairness - and it’s very much in the eye of the beholder. Particularly when it comes to transformative work. Usually you want to avoid a case going to court, simply because it’s then out of your control, which is why people normally settle. |
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Post by Steve on Aug 2, 2022 13:37:17 GMT
If I was plotting a defence, I wouldn't bother with "fair use," cos it almost certainly isn't, given that it isn't a parody, and they've cribbed massive chunks of the IP.
I'd argue that Netflix gave me permission to create the work and that I relied on that permission. I'd highlight any written communications to that effect, including any praise, or any purchases of the album or tickets by the creatives or Netflix executives. And I'd argue that in consideration for the permission, I provided them the positive publicity they were after.
I'd point out that by implication they concede in their complaint that they gave me informal permission, by arguing that I didn't have "formal" permission, and I'd argue that informal permission is still permission.
Even then, I wouldn't back myself, and I'd be begging for a deal.
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Post by kathryn on Aug 2, 2022 15:48:32 GMT
You’d almost certainly run into the problem that the ‘implied permission’ was for the original TikTok version, not a live show.
That’s why formal permission documents exist, so you can specify format, territories, and time limits.
(As someone who works in publishing you would not believe what a pain it is to make sure someone actually has secured permission for all forms of commercial publication and worldwide distribution. Authors have a habit of thinking because their work is academic it’s not commercial, and because the journal is small it’s got a limited distribution. But everything publishes on our online platform, which is accessible literally everywhere worldwide, and we sell subscriptions to it.)
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