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Post by justsaying113 on Sept 28, 2021 10:23:03 GMT
Totally agree danb. If this was to be done at all, it needed to be done with Patti, Elaine, Glenn or Betty (let's not get into who we each prefer!); a name to which people might have been prepared to go - and pay for - almost for old time's sake. And I mean no disrespect whatsoever to Mazz Murray. I hope this sells but it's a huge ask.
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Post by og on Sept 28, 2021 11:39:15 GMT
Legitimate points, playing devils advocate, whilst some of the prices are fairly egregious (eg the corporate boxes, which come with a dedicated member of staff) a quick compare with Phantom on the same night prices aren't that dissimilar (SB Mid/Front Stalls £135, Phantom £125 etc) the difference being that this is a one-off single performance. Every single aspect of the production needs to be paid for by ticket sales for that one performance; the performers, musicians, crew, equipement hire, venue hire, production rights, and so on. West End theatre has the opportunity to cost-average the production costs across 8 performances per week for the entire duration of the contract/run, it's a very different ball game. By all means, if you think you could produce the same concert for £20 tickets, have a go. Whilst it could be said it has the potential to set a precedent, arguably it's a Concert, not Theatre, so very different territory. Even if it were strictly theatre, at the end of the day it is what it is; Show Business. The RAH has a 5000 seat capacity. At £20 a pop that’s still £100,000 gross for a concert version and no stars. Are you really saying a one off concert performance cannot be done for less than £100,000? Quick quote via Concord, simply to licence the production for a one off performance to 5000 in London will cost you £321,600. So your already running at a loss of £221,600. How you going to recoup? Charge the singers and orchestra to perform?
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Post by danb on Sept 28, 2021 14:46:47 GMT
No, they’re selling them to cover the rent on the Albert Hall and to pay the massive orchestra and cast, the rental on the sound equipment & desk, the many unplanned expenses that ‘crop up’ from out of nowhere, people to run said desk, costume hire, to pay for the lighting rig & desk, people to run said desk…and after all that a bit left to hopefully cover some debts from the Ally Pally run. I don’t think it is being said with attitude, just disbelief. It’s the Albert Hall, not Watford Colosseum.
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Post by og on Sept 28, 2021 15:40:59 GMT
Quick quote via Concord, simply to licence the production for a one off performance to 5000 in London will cost you £321,600. So your already running at a loss of £221,600. How you going to recoup? Charge the singers and orchestra to perform? Polite question, what’s with the attitude? I don’t think there is anything wrong in believing a concert, not a production, cannot be staged for under £100,000! But I don’t think your figures are right. Even if they sold 5000 tickets at £66 that’s a gross of £330,000. There is no way they’re selling tickets at £66 (which that are) purely to cover the licensing. No attitude, just stating the facts and asking a genuine question. Feel free to do your own quick quote via concordtheatricals.com to work out licensing costs if you still prefer not to believe me. As danb says, irregardless of licensing costs (which is just one real-world example I've given) the costs of mounting a concert at the Royal Albert Hall are far from miniscule. Aside from staffing for the performance itself - Leads (8) Ensemble (+20), Musicians (41), Technical Crew (3 sound, 4 lighting, 3 stage management) - there's venue hire, equipment hire, production management staffing, promotion and marketing costs, public liability, legal fees for the contractors, production insurance (including the tiny little aspect of Covid Liability & all the other risk factors relating to that costed in) before you even consider trying to turn a profit. Genuinely, I'd love to see your breakdown of costs if you believe you can mount a concert a the Royal Albert Hall and take a profit for under £100k.
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Post by og on Sept 28, 2021 15:43:10 GMT
No, they’re selling them to cover the rent on the Albert Hall and to pay the massive orchestra and cast, the rental on the sound equipment & desk, the many unplanned expenses that ‘crop up’ from out of nowhere, people to run said desk, costume hire, to pay for the lighting rig & desk, people to run said desk… and after all that a bit left to hopefully cover some debts from the Ally Pally run. I don’t think it is being said with attitude, just disbelief. Of course it’s to cover these things - I’m not claiming otherwise. Nor was I claiming tickets should be £20, but simply using that as illustrative of the fact they can gross £100,000 easily enough. If it costs more than than to stage a concert version of a musical no wonder prices keep going up. However the bit in bold - comes back to my original point. It is not fair to exploit anyone for excessive profit margins and the west end continues to feel justified in doing so. Where does it end? What happens when the customers stop coming because tickets are too high? Do shows continue to just make a loss or does the industry take a hard look at itself and evaluate the costs involved in staging something? The idea that a concert version costs in excess of £100,000 is madness. Please, if you insist on repeating this, demonstrate it with facts. Break it down, show us your costings and calculations. I've already stated in hard facts an estimate at licensing the production, alone exceeds 100k.
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594 posts
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Post by og on Sept 28, 2021 15:46:23 GMT
For the hard of hearing
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Post by TallPaul on Sept 28, 2021 15:53:08 GMT
I've been sitting on my hands all afternoon, I really have, but as we're focussing on facts, I feel obliged to point out that Concord does not handle the licensing of ALW in the UK.
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Post by interval99 on Sept 28, 2021 16:09:39 GMT
Based on the lack of ticket sales they do seem to have over priced and misjudged demand for another concert version of sunset. While surprised and disappointed that the rocketing seat prices have returned so quickly we did see this just before covid where the hot ticket or more often event which must go to so they can post on social media were getting into the three figures bracket for even standard seating. If it's a demand show then even if the organisation price low resellers will buy and charge a fortune on resale sites which is what started the premium pricing. Both new shows Cinderella and bttf which would hope to be in the period of demand where they can hike prices but have most seats under £90 and are still not selling out. Frozen and Hamilton back up to £165 seats and a sellout. It's down to what people will pay and in the case of the play cock I am sure it's more people wanting to see the star name , the show is secondary; good chance that some board members may get some good discounts on seats for sunset if sales do not pick up so may have some positive posts about it come late November if it's not pulled.
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Post by og on Sept 28, 2021 16:26:18 GMT
I've been sitting on my hands all afternoon, I really have, but as we're focussing on facts, I feel obliged to point out that Concord does not handle the licensing of ALW in the UK. Granted I could have stated that but I'm really trying not to detract from the case in point of the sheer cost anticipated in mounting this. It can't be ignored that any production of SB (theatrical or concert) requires the permission from Paramount Pictures. This isn't a 20p venture.
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Post by steve10086 on Sept 28, 2021 17:25:26 GMT
Nor was I claiming tickets should be £20, but simply using that as illustrative of the fact they can gross £100,000 easily enough. If it costs more than than to stage a concert version of a musical no wonder prices keep going up. The idea that a concert version costs in excess of £100,000 is madness. I really don’t mean to sound rude, but are you being serious?
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Post by steve10086 on Sept 28, 2021 17:33:40 GMT
Was aware this isn't a RUG production, but interested in what kind of input they have/had beyond 'no changes without consultation' - if anyone knows how these things tend to work. Perhaps once happy with musical forces and casting, they're hands off. Though I think the esteem of RAH may make it a one-off case. Unless someone knows otherwise I imagine RUG aren’t interested. This concert is really nothing to do with them, and this isn’t some kind of landmark occasion for “Sunset Boulevard” as Phantom’s 25th anniversary concerts at the RAH were for that show. It’s just a standard concert performance by an independent producer.
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Post by shady23 on Sept 28, 2021 18:05:42 GMT
I think that the whole enterprise has been misguided from the start. Sunset was just done in the W/E and on tour so nobody was clamouring for a new production. There are no stars or big names, just reliable highly professional artists. Crazy trying to turn a profit from that starting point. I imagine many people just go the RAH to be seen and to tell people they are going; whatever is on. Add in all the "fine dining" add ons that seem to accompany it all these days and it suddenly becomes very unaffordable for your average person but, then, they clearly don't want the average person there at those prices. I'm out.
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Post by BurlyBeaR on Sept 28, 2021 18:21:12 GMT
I think any theatre or concert production that includes “dining” (fine or otherwise) is to be avoided at all costs. I’m not going to the theatre or a concert to have my tea, I’m having that before I go and if I can’t do that it’s the chippy or 🍔 after.
I’d be embarrassed eating a meal in a theatre. It’s naff.
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Post by interval99 on Sept 28, 2021 18:27:10 GMT
I think any theatre or concert production that includes “dining” (fine or otherwise) is to be avoided at all costs. I’m not going to the theatre or a concert to have my tea, I’m having that before I go and if I can’t do that it’s the chippy or 🍔 after. I’d be embarrassed eating a meal in a theatre. It’s naff. Oh dear that's told all those couples who have booked the tables for cabaret! At least I presume they cook to time rather than that dread of eating before hand and the meal seemly not arriving until you have to gulp it down to get to the theatre
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Post by steve10086 on Sept 28, 2021 19:03:03 GMT
I really don’t mean to sound rude, but are you being serious? Very serious. Maybe it’s naive, maybe I’m delusional, maybe I’m channeling Norma. But it’s a vast amount of money and if it’s seriously going to cost that just to put on a concert version with no set, no need for detailed lighting, possibly nothing other than black clothing and a turban from wardrobe, possibly a cast not even off book... £100,000+ is a lot of money. I don’t really care how much it costs to stage something, that’s not my issue. It’s tickets that aren’t value for money that I have a problem with and £66 to sit in the RAH up top? It’s madness. I’m not expecting bargains like £20 for everyone, but fair prices that reflect the experience of the seat. If producers struggle to keep ticket prices fair then something within the industry is wrong. Yes, you could argue that what I deem a fair price to be wrong - and I’m open to having that discuss (but maybe not in this thread) yet for this I don’t think so. Plus I’m 100% not against producers making money, I’m against them trying to make too much money out of me. All I know is that £100,000 is a serious amount of money and I’m being told it costs significantly more to stage this concert. The amount of money involved is just crazy and as someone who doesn’t work in the industry looking inwards, I’m shocked. £100k is peanuts!
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Post by danb on Sept 28, 2021 19:48:11 GMT
Saying the same thing over and over won’t transfer it into the realms of fact. Doing anything like this takes serious bucks. They either need to run it for longer or have radio/tv rights sold already to ensure any sort of financial health.
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Post by sph on Sept 28, 2021 22:07:43 GMT
I think the costs of mounting a concert at the RAH are probably so enormous I'm genuinely surprised they chose that venue without a major star for Norma.
Why not go with a smaller venue in the West End?
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Post by chernjam on Sept 29, 2021 2:28:44 GMT
Sunset is my favorite (tied with Aspects of Love) of all musicals - ALW or otherwise. the idea of a 40 piece orchestra again, with people really being able to sing (Ramin especially) had me thinking of flying over to see this. But I realize I'm in the vast minority on this
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Post by max on Sept 29, 2021 7:59:46 GMT
Sunset is my favorite (tied with Aspects of Love) of all musicals - ALW or otherwise. the idea of a 40 piece orchestra again, with people really being able to sing (Ramin especially) had me thinking of flying over to see this. But I realize I'm in the vast minority on this I don't think the concerns are about whether it will be any good - the previous iteration at Alexandra Palace seems to have had a lot going for it, but falling short on sound balancing, costume, learned lines. As it's an exciting prospect, and one of scale, I was hoping the producers' brave chutzpah (in setting out their stall) would be followed by a more controllable version from them in a venue that was guaranteed to buoy it up. They seem to have chosen further risk - which I can marvel at, but doesn't make me confident to book for. Despite many years of improvements at the Royal Albert Hall (on acoustics) it's often reported as volatile for sound balance - something that a one-off show is more prey to.
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Post by vickyg on Sept 29, 2021 10:27:52 GMT
In my experience one off concerts/ semi staged productions always seem to have this issue. Not enough rehearsal time to be (confidently) off book or have seamless sound and lighting but expensive tickets to cover the costs of a one off. Yes it's special because there won't necessarily be another opportunity to see something but it won't be flawless by any means.
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Post by inthenose on Sept 29, 2021 15:25:03 GMT
In my experience one off concerts/ semi staged productions always seem to have this issue. Not enough rehearsal time to be (confidently) off book or have seamless sound and lighting but expensive tickets to cover the costs of a one off. Yes it's special because there won't necessarily be another opportunity to see something but it won't be flawless by any means. To me it just represents horrible value. Setting aside producers interests, in terms of what the consumer gets for their money these events are really only for die-hards or the wealthy. As you point out, not enough rehearsal time or time given to the noise boys to figure out the venue, how to balance the orchestra/ensemble, dark spots in the house, learn the speaker layout, know the piece inside out, tech mic pick up cues. All of this stuff contributes to these shows usually sounding awful. 40 piece orchestra is so commendable and sounds great as a sales pitch, the reality is they are usually so under rehearsed it can actually end up being more disappointing. And they chose a shocking venue. Lots of prestige, no practicality You can see where the money has gone, but these occasions depend on FOMO and it's not like Bonnie & Clyde where it is a one time chance to see it. Or even the recent Glenn Close production where you get to see a legend. It's Sunset Boulevard - "another one". I just don't get it.
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Post by steve10086 on Sept 29, 2021 18:06:38 GMT
This concert is presented by ALPHA Club. Judging by their website it doesn’t look like they’ll be too worried about takings or ticket sales www.alpha-club.co.uk/
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Post by og on Sept 29, 2021 18:20:29 GMT
I think any theatre or concert production that includes “dining” (fine or otherwise) is to be avoided at all costs. I’m not going to the theatre or a concert to have my tea, I’m having that before I go and if I can’t do that it’s the chippy or 🍔 after. I’d be embarrassed eating a meal in a theatre. It’s naff. Drifting from the main subject, but for a huge chunk of theatre & concert-goers, the whole evening is the event. It's not just about going to see xxx as yyy in zzz for whatever reason, but it's a social affair that starts with food and ends with a show. That's why so much of Central London offers pre-theatre dining menus. If a venue has the facility to offer twinned dining and show tickets, good for them. It certainly makes it even easier for the patrons who don't need to worry about moving down the street in the rain, trying to find the theatre, after a bottle of wine. Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't ATG offer it for some of their theatres? I know Palace Manchester had ticket offers with the restaurant next door at one point. Are you saying you refused to go to any shows at Manchester Palace whilst they were offering Dining & Ticket deals? Same question re: The Lowry, with their pre-theatre dining deals at Pier Eight? As for being embarrassed about eating a meal in a theatre, tell that to the Lord Lloyd Webber and his multi-million pound investment in Theatre Royal Drury Lane.
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Post by shady23 on Sept 29, 2021 18:25:50 GMT
It seems like a lot of work for just one show. Would make much more sense if there was a matinee as well.
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Post by distantcousin on Sept 29, 2021 18:28:50 GMT
One of the biggest red flags as far as I can see is the exorbitant price of the licence - and where does the profit from that go to? ALW's private fortune?
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Post by danb on Sept 29, 2021 18:34:45 GMT
Would it be the same amount for an amateur production? It was popular a few years ago with the larger am dram groups. Surely they didn’t have to stump up that much?
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Post by BurlyBeaR on Sept 29, 2021 19:08:25 GMT
I think any theatre or concert production that includes “dining” (fine or otherwise) is to be avoided at all costs. I’m not going to the theatre or a concert to have my tea, I’m having that before I go and if I can’t do that it’s the chippy or 🍔 after. I’d be embarrassed eating a meal in a theatre. It’s naff. Drifting from the main subject, but for a huge chunk of theatre & concert-goers, the whole evening is the event. It's not just about going to see xxx as yyy in zzz for whatever reason, but it's a social affair that starts with food and ends with a show. That's why so much of Central London offers pre-theatre dining menus. If a venue has the facility to offer twinned dining and show tickets, good for them. It certainly makes it even easier for the patrons who don't need to worry about moving down the street in the rain, trying to find the theatre, after a bottle of wine. Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't ATG offer it for some of their theatres? I know Palace Manchester had ticket offers with the restaurant next door at one point. Are you saying you refused to go to any shows at Manchester Palace whilst they were offering Dining & Ticket deals? Same question re: The Lowry, with their pre-theatre dining deals at Pier Eight?As for being embarrassed about eating a meal in a theatre, tell that to the Lord Lloyd Webber and his multi-million pound investment in Theatre Royal Drury Lane. I mean having a meal in the auditorium as is the case with Cabaret. If people want to go to a restaurant before the show that’s different, but paying a fortune to be served food down the front of the stalls… show offy and naff.
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Post by distantcousin on Sept 29, 2021 19:11:27 GMT
Would it be the same amount for an amateur production? It was popular a few years ago with the larger am dram groups. Surely they didn’t have to stump up that much? I was in a production of Sunset. It was nowhere near. I can't remember what the flat fee was, but it was in addition to a percentage of the box office too....
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Post by distantcousin on Sept 29, 2021 19:12:01 GMT
Drifting from the main subject, but for a huge chunk of theatre & concert-goers, the whole evening is the event. It's not just about going to see xxx as yyy in zzz for whatever reason, but it's a social affair that starts with food and ends with a show. That's why so much of Central London offers pre-theatre dining menus. If a venue has the facility to offer twinned dining and show tickets, good for them. It certainly makes it even easier for the patrons who don't need to worry about moving down the street in the rain, trying to find the theatre, after a bottle of wine. Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't ATG offer it for some of their theatres? I know Palace Manchester had ticket offers with the restaurant next door at one point. Are you saying you refused to go to any shows at Manchester Palace whilst they were offering Dining & Ticket deals? Same question re: The Lowry, with their pre-theatre dining deals at Pier Eight?As for being embarrassed about eating a meal in a theatre, tell that to the Lord Lloyd Webber and his multi-million pound investment in Theatre Royal Drury Lane. I mean having a meal in the auditorium as is the case with Cabaret and SB. If people want to go to a restaurant before the show that’s different, but paying a fortune to be served food down the front of the stalls… show offy and naff.
Very nouveau riche, dear!
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Post by steve10086 on Sept 29, 2021 19:12:38 GMT
Drifting from the main subject, but for a huge chunk of theatre & concert-goers, the whole evening is the event. It's not just about going to see xxx as yyy in zzz for whatever reason, but it's a social affair that starts with food and ends with a show. That's why so much of Central London offers pre-theatre dining menus. If a venue has the facility to offer twinned dining and show tickets, good for them. It certainly makes it even easier for the patrons who don't need to worry about moving down the street in the rain, trying to find the theatre, after a bottle of wine. Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't ATG offer it for some of their theatres? I know Palace Manchester had ticket offers with the restaurant next door at one point. Are you saying you refused to go to any shows at Manchester Palace whilst they were offering Dining & Ticket deals? Same question re: The Lowry, with their pre-theatre dining deals at Pier Eight?As for being embarrassed about eating a meal in a theatre, tell that to the Lord Lloyd Webber and his multi-million pound investment in Theatre Royal Drury Lane. I mean having a meal in the auditorium as is the case with Cabaret. If people want to go to a restaurant before the show that’s different, but paying a fortune to be served food down the front of the stalls… show offy and naff. I don’t think the Sunset “fine dining” is served in the auditorium!
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