594 posts
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Post by og on Sept 27, 2021 8:45:15 GMT
Sorry for the above rant, genuinely angry about this one. It's everything I don't want theatre to become. Legitimate points, playing devils advocate, whilst some of the prices are fairly egregious (eg the corporate boxes, which come with a dedicated member of staff) a quick compare with Phantom on the same night prices aren't that dissimilar (SB Mid/Front Stalls £135, Phantom £125 etc) the difference being that this is a one-off single performance. Every single aspect of the production needs to be paid for by ticket sales for that one performance; the performers, musicians, crew, equipement hire, venue hire, production rights, and so on. West End theatre has the opportunity to cost-average the production costs across 8 performances per week for the entire duration of the contract/run, it's a very different ball game. By all means, if you think you could produce the same concert for £20 tickets, have a go. Whilst it could be said it has the potential to set a precedent, arguably it's a Concert, not Theatre, so very different territory. Even if it were strictly theatre, at the end of the day it is what it is; Show Business. |
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Post by max on Sept 27, 2021 12:08:36 GMT
Does anyone know what the status of this production is in ReallyUseful/ALW world? Totally legit for OG (in the post above) to compare to Phantom anniversary when thinking about pricing; but in terms of artistic/authorial overview that was a major production by the original producers, and a milestone moment in its history. Playing the RAH is quite a high status milestone moment for 'Sunset', but under whose ownership of the moment? I'd hope a custodian of the show's reputation would be aware that many core loyal audience were bitterly disappointed with the sound issues for 'Chess' (which got a few more 'goes' at it, rather than a one-off performance).
It's another of ALW's apparently 'big' shows, that is actually about a very small number of core characters. In a show where Norma asserts "we didn't need words, we had faces" how many of the audience will be able to see the detail of the actors' faces, in England's village hall?
Something feels out of kilter. A few performances at the Palladium might have given more confidence to book.
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Post by steve10086 on Sept 27, 2021 12:13:57 GMT
This concert has nothing to do with RUG.
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594 posts
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Post by og on Sept 27, 2021 12:33:29 GMT
Does anyone know what the status of this production is in ReallyUseful/ALW world? Totally legit for OG (in the post above) to compare to Phantom anniversary when thinking about pricing; but in terms of artistic/authorial overview that was a major production by the original producers, and a milestone moment in its history. Playing the RAH is quite a high status milestone moment for 'Sunset', but under whose ownership of the moment? I'd hope a custodian of the show's reputation would be aware that many core loyal audience were bitterly disappointed with the sound issues for 'Chess' (which got a few more 'goes' at it, rather than a one-off performance). It's another of ALW's apparently 'big' shows, that is actually about a very small number of core characters. In a show where Norma asserts "we didn't need words, we had faces" how many of the audience will be able to see the detail of the actors' faces, in England's village hall? Something feels out of kilter. A few performances at the Palladium might have given more confidence to book. To clarify, I was comparing Sunset @ RAH with Phantom at Her Majesty's on the same evening, not the 25th Concert. |
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Post by max on Sept 27, 2021 16:02:51 GMT
Does anyone know what the status of this production is in ReallyUseful/ALW world? Totally legit for OG (in the post above) to compare to Phantom anniversary when thinking about pricing; but in terms of artistic/authorial overview that was a major production by the original producers, and a milestone moment in its history. Playing the RAH is quite a high status milestone moment for 'Sunset', but under whose ownership of the moment? I'd hope a custodian of the show's reputation would be aware that many core loyal audience were bitterly disappointed with the sound issues for 'Chess' (which got a few more 'goes' at it, rather than a one-off performance). It's another of ALW's apparently 'big' shows, that is actually about a very small number of core characters. In a show where Norma asserts "we didn't need words, we had faces" how many of the audience will be able to see the detail of the actors' faces, in England's village hall? Something feels out of kilter. A few performances at the Palladium might have given more confidence to book. To clarify, I was comparing Sunset @ RAH with Phantom at Her Majesty's on the same evening, not the 25th Concert. Ah, thanks OG. So as it compares okay with some price brackets in the West End, it could be a chance for some to venture to the RAH for the first time - I've never been. I'd want to be confident of sound and vision ("faces") before talking to my bank account. I liked what I heard of Mazz Murray in this, and at another venue would probably have booked already. |
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Post by max on Sept 27, 2021 19:16:14 GMT
Was aware this isn't a RUG production, but interested in what kind of input they have/had beyond 'no changes without consultation' - if anyone knows how these things tend to work. Perhaps once happy with musical forces and casting, they're hands off. Though I think the esteem of RAH may make it a one-off case.
On concerts: The Petula Clark/Michael Ball concert version at Cork Opera House years ago (broadcast on BBC Radio 2) was strong - Clark's finale easily findable on Youtube is very well sung, and her acting some of the best I've heard of that section. There's a good moment when Norma's voice becomes girlish at the end of her speech to 'Mr DeMille/people in the dark', and then goes back into Norma's deeper adult voice. So she was even acting a role during part of her sincere speech. Nice choice I thought.
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Post by theatreian on Sept 27, 2021 21:44:39 GMT
An interesting compilation of finales with lots of Normas!
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Post by danb on Sept 28, 2021 4:55:05 GMT
Not a chance, no.
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Post by alece10 on Sept 28, 2021 7:32:55 GMT
Also the boxes are privately owned so you can't count them unless the box owners release their seats back to the RAH to sell on.
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Post by danb on Sept 28, 2021 8:51:23 GMT
I think that the whole enterprise has been misguided from the start. Sunset was just done in the W/E and on tour so nobody was clamouring for a new production. There are no stars or big names, just reliable highly professional artists. Crazy trying to turn a profit from that starting point.
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Post by justsaying113 on Sept 28, 2021 10:23:03 GMT
Totally agree danb. If this was to be done at all, it needed to be done with Patti, Elaine, Glenn or Betty (let's not get into who we each prefer!); a name to which people might have been prepared to go - and pay for - almost for old time's sake. And I mean no disrespect whatsoever to Mazz Murray. I hope this sells but it's a huge ask.
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Post by og on Sept 28, 2021 11:39:15 GMT
Legitimate points, playing devils advocate, whilst some of the prices are fairly egregious (eg the corporate boxes, which come with a dedicated member of staff) a quick compare with Phantom on the same night prices aren't that dissimilar (SB Mid/Front Stalls £135, Phantom £125 etc) the difference being that this is a one-off single performance. Every single aspect of the production needs to be paid for by ticket sales for that one performance; the performers, musicians, crew, equipement hire, venue hire, production rights, and so on. West End theatre has the opportunity to cost-average the production costs across 8 performances per week for the entire duration of the contract/run, it's a very different ball game. By all means, if you think you could produce the same concert for £20 tickets, have a go. Whilst it could be said it has the potential to set a precedent, arguably it's a Concert, not Theatre, so very different territory. Even if it were strictly theatre, at the end of the day it is what it is; Show Business. The RAH has a 5000 seat capacity. At £20 a pop that’s still £100,000 gross for a concert version and no stars. Are you really saying a one off concert performance cannot be done for less than £100,000? Quick quote via Concord, simply to licence the production for a one off performance to 5000 in London will cost you £321,600. So your already running at a loss of £221,600. How you going to recoup? Charge the singers and orchestra to perform? |
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Post by danb on Sept 28, 2021 14:46:47 GMT
No, they’re selling them to cover the rent on the Albert Hall and to pay the massive orchestra and cast, the rental on the sound equipment & desk, the many unplanned expenses that ‘crop up’ from out of nowhere, people to run said desk, costume hire, to pay for the lighting rig & desk, people to run said desk…and after all that a bit left to hopefully cover some debts from the Ally Pally run. I don’t think it is being said with attitude, just disbelief. It’s the Albert Hall, not Watford Colosseum.
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Post by og on Sept 28, 2021 15:40:59 GMT
Quick quote via Concord, simply to licence the production for a one off performance to 5000 in London will cost you £321,600. So your already running at a loss of £221,600. How you going to recoup? Charge the singers and orchestra to perform? Polite question, what’s with the attitude? I don’t think there is anything wrong in believing a concert, not a production, cannot be staged for under £100,000! But I don’t think your figures are right. Even if they sold 5000 tickets at £66 that’s a gross of £330,000. There is no way they’re selling tickets at £66 (which that are) purely to cover the licensing. No attitude, just stating the facts and asking a genuine question. Feel free to do your own quick quote via concordtheatricals.com to work out licensing costs if you still prefer not to believe me. As danb says, irregardless of licensing costs (which is just one real-world example I've given) the costs of mounting a concert at the Royal Albert Hall are far from miniscule. Aside from staffing for the performance itself - Leads (8) Ensemble (+20), Musicians (41), Technical Crew (3 sound, 4 lighting, 3 stage management) - there's venue hire, equipment hire, production management staffing, promotion and marketing costs, public liability, legal fees for the contractors, production insurance (including the tiny little aspect of Covid Liability & all the other risk factors relating to that costed in) before you even consider trying to turn a profit. Genuinely, I'd love to see your breakdown of costs if you believe you can mount a concert a the Royal Albert Hall and take a profit for under £100k. |
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Post by og on Sept 28, 2021 15:43:10 GMT
No, they’re selling them to cover the rent on the Albert Hall and to pay the massive orchestra and cast, the rental on the sound equipment & desk, the many unplanned expenses that ‘crop up’ from out of nowhere, people to run said desk, costume hire, to pay for the lighting rig & desk, people to run said desk… and after all that a bit left to hopefully cover some debts from the Ally Pally run. I don’t think it is being said with attitude, just disbelief. Of course it’s to cover these things - I’m not claiming otherwise. Nor was I claiming tickets should be £20, but simply using that as illustrative of the fact they can gross £100,000 easily enough. If it costs more than than to stage a concert version of a musical no wonder prices keep going up. However the bit in bold - comes back to my original point. It is not fair to exploit anyone for excessive profit margins and the west end continues to feel justified in doing so. Where does it end? What happens when the customers stop coming because tickets are too high? Do shows continue to just make a loss or does the industry take a hard look at itself and evaluate the costs involved in staging something? The idea that a concert version costs in excess of £100,000 is madness. Please, if you insist on repeating this, demonstrate it with facts. Break it down, show us your costings and calculations. I've already stated in hard facts an estimate at licensing the production, alone exceeds 100k. |
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Post by og on Sept 28, 2021 15:46:23 GMT
For the hard of hearing  |
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Post by TallPaul on Sept 28, 2021 15:53:08 GMT
I've been sitting on my hands all afternoon, I really have, but as we're focussing on facts, I feel obliged to point out that Concord does not handle the licensing of ALW in the UK.
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Post by interval99 on Sept 28, 2021 16:09:39 GMT
Based on the lack of ticket sales they do seem to have over priced and misjudged demand for another concert version of sunset.
While surprised and disappointed that the rocketing seat prices have returned so quickly we did see this just before covid where the hot ticket or more often event which must go to so they can post on social media were getting into the three figures bracket for even standard seating.
If it's a demand show then even if the organisation price low resellers will buy and charge a fortune on resale sites which is what started the premium pricing.
Both new shows Cinderella and bttf which would hope to be in the period of demand where they can hike prices but have most seats under £90 and are still not selling out. Frozen and Hamilton back up to £165 seats and a sellout. It's down to what people will pay and in the case of the play cock I am sure it's more people wanting to see the star name , the show is secondary; good chance that some board members may get some good discounts on seats for sunset if sales do not pick up so may have some positive posts about it come late November if it's not pulled.
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Post by og on Sept 28, 2021 16:26:18 GMT
I've been sitting on my hands all afternoon, I really have, but as we're focussing on facts, I feel obliged to point out that Concord does not handle the licensing of ALW in the UK. Granted I could have stated that but I'm really trying not to detract from the case in point of the sheer cost anticipated in mounting this. It can't be ignored that any production of SB (theatrical or concert) requires the permission from Paramount Pictures. This isn't a 20p venture. |
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Post by steve10086 on Sept 28, 2021 17:25:26 GMT
Nor was I claiming tickets should be £20, but simply using that as illustrative of the fact they can gross £100,000 easily enough. If it costs more than than to stage a concert version of a musical no wonder prices keep going up. The idea that a concert version costs in excess of £100,000 is madness. I really don’t mean to sound rude, but are you being serious? |
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Post by steve10086 on Sept 28, 2021 17:33:40 GMT
Was aware this isn't a RUG production, but interested in what kind of input they have/had beyond 'no changes without consultation' - if anyone knows how these things tend to work. Perhaps once happy with musical forces and casting, they're hands off. Though I think the esteem of RAH may make it a one-off case. Unless someone knows otherwise I imagine RUG aren’t interested. This concert is really nothing to do with them, and this isn’t some kind of landmark occasion for “Sunset Boulevard” as Phantom’s 25th anniversary concerts at the RAH were for that show. It’s just a standard concert performance by an independent producer. |
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Post by shady23 on Sept 28, 2021 18:05:42 GMT
I think that the whole enterprise has been misguided from the start. Sunset was just done in the W/E and on tour so nobody was clamouring for a new production. There are no stars or big names, just reliable highly professional artists. Crazy trying to turn a profit from that starting point. I imagine many people just go the RAH to be seen and to tell people they are going; whatever is on. Add in all the "fine dining" add ons that seem to accompany it all these days and it suddenly becomes very unaffordable for your average person but, then, they clearly don't want the average person there at those prices. I'm out. |
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Post by BurlyBeaR on Sept 28, 2021 18:21:12 GMT
I think any theatre or concert production that includes “dining” (fine or otherwise) is to be avoided at all costs. I’m not going to the theatre or a concert to have my tea, I’m having that before I go and if I can’t do that it’s the chippy or 🍔 after.
I’d be embarrassed eating a meal in a theatre. It’s naff.
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Post by interval99 on Sept 28, 2021 18:27:10 GMT
I think any theatre or concert production that includes “dining” (fine or otherwise) is to be avoided at all costs. I’m not going to the theatre or a concert to have my tea, I’m having that before I go and if I can’t do that it’s the chippy or 🍔 after. I’d be embarrassed eating a meal in a theatre. It’s naff. Oh dear that's told all those couples who have booked the tables for cabaret! At least I presume they cook to time rather than that dread of eating before hand and the meal seemly not arriving until you have to gulp it down to get to the theatre |
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Post by steve10086 on Sept 28, 2021 19:03:03 GMT
I really don’t mean to sound rude, but are you being serious? Very serious. Maybe it’s naive, maybe I’m delusional, maybe I’m channeling Norma. But it’s a vast amount of money and if it’s seriously going to cost that just to put on a concert version with no set, no need for detailed lighting, possibly nothing other than black clothing and a turban from wardrobe, possibly a cast not even off book... £100,000+ is a lot of money. I don’t really care how much it costs to stage something, that’s not my issue. It’s tickets that aren’t value for money that I have a problem with and £66 to sit in the RAH up top? It’s madness. I’m not expecting bargains like £20 for everyone, but fair prices that reflect the experience of the seat. If producers struggle to keep ticket prices fair then something within the industry is wrong. Yes, you could argue that what I deem a fair price to be wrong - and I’m open to having that discuss (but maybe not in this thread) yet for this I don’t think so. Plus I’m 100% not against producers making money, I’m against them trying to make too much money out of me. All I know is that £100,000 is a serious amount of money and I’m being told it costs significantly more to stage this concert. The amount of money involved is just crazy and as someone who doesn’t work in the industry looking inwards, I’m shocked. £100k is peanuts! |
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