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Post by sf on Jul 31, 2020 22:26:52 GMT
I think they fell into the trap of believing that blackface wasn't that big a deal any more, and what they were doing didn't count as blackface because it wasn't done in the style of the Black and White Minstrel Show, and that because they didn't think of themselves as racist, then it couldn't possibly be racist and so on. But even if they assumed it was all fine, then someone in the production team should have questioned it. That's not to relinquish them of the blame, and I'd hope that responsible comedians who enjoy edgy jokes also have the sense to employ someone who will give everything a once over to check for stuff that might cross the line. The same goes for Tracey Ullman in her HBO shows - although there wasn't the air of condescension when Ullman did it that I got from Lucas and Walliams, whose work I've usually found unpleasant. |
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Post by basdfg on Aug 1, 2020 10:40:27 GMT
Fundamentally a lot of the UK still enjoy entertainment that is non PC - and a lot of the group see banning it as an attack o their views and lifestyle. Things have to be done delicately or the culture war will grow bigger and bigger.
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Post by sf on Aug 1, 2020 11:24:59 GMT
Fundamentally a lot of the UK still enjoy entertainment that is non PC - and a lot of the group see banning it as an attack o their views and lifestyle. Things have to be done delicately or the culture war will grow bigger and bigger.
A lot of people would probably enjoy watching a hanging. Doesn't mean we should bring back the death penalty.
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Post by Someone in a tree on Aug 1, 2020 11:36:34 GMT
And to ensure hanging doesn't come back we get Meghan to publicly endorse bringing back hanging
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Post by Deleted on Aug 1, 2020 12:55:43 GMT
I think they fell into the trap of believing that blackface wasn't that big a deal any more, and what they were doing didn't count as blackface because it wasn't done in the style of the Black and White Minstrel Show, and that because they didn't think of themselves as racist, then it couldn't possibly be racist and so on. But even if they assumed it was all fine, then someone in the production team should have questioned it. That's not to relinquish them of the blame, and I'd hope that responsible comedians who enjoy edgy jokes also have the sense to employ someone who will give everything a once over to check for stuff that might cross the line. Minstrel blackface as in The Black and White Minstrel Show which finished on TV circa 1978 after several years of people campaigning against it and even one year it be re-branded and having the male performers appearing as themselves and the similar make up used in the Spike Lee film Bamboozled. I would say is different to a white actor blacking up to play Othello. The BWMS carried on as a touring show until the late 1980's I think. One of the principal singers John Boulter is married to Anna Dawson who I'm sure many older board members will recall from her many TV appearances over the years. I think they retired to New Zealand. Matt and David when they did Come Fly With Me probably had fairly free creative reign but I agree a senior Executive or Programme Controller might have questioned it but if it had been filmed when they see it you have the question of cost and what the performers may see as censorship but I would have felt it was justified. If it had been signed off before filming then I'd question the wisdom of it even more. |
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Post by ellisael on Aug 4, 2020 9:30:49 GMT
I enjoyed reading this thread because once again i am reminded of the need of nuance and introspection to make the state of the world better
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Post by Deleted on Aug 6, 2020 10:58:11 GMT
I see now that Zoe Saldana has appologized for playing Nina Simone with darkened skin and a false nose. Zoe is Dominican and Puerto Rican heritage so can clearly be classed as black or maybe slightly mixed race. The skin darkening might be considered an issue but lots of people have worn false noses, teeth etc to play roles.
Art Malik who is a Pakistani muslim has been famed for playing a lot of "Indian" roles and I've seen him play a Sikh in full turban. I wouldn't call this offensive as it would be the same as a catholic playing a christian IMO.
Also Ryan Thomas on Corrie had a father played by Terence Maynard who is black but in real life Ryan's father is from India as seen on the recent TV series but there is some Caribbean heritage further back.
Does the cast colour of BAME actors now have to be perfect too?
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Post by poster J on Aug 6, 2020 13:44:08 GMT
Does the cast colour of BAME actors now have to be perfect too? I think the question you should be asking is why should it not be? Unless the piece of theatre/film in question specifically calls for a person to be played by a different ethnicity (e.g. Hamilton) then any attempt not to cast the correct ethnicity for the character, or one that fits the context of the programme/show, is just lazy. |
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Post by The Matthew on Aug 6, 2020 15:00:57 GMT
I find it quite disturbing how readily people are willing to attack performers for purportedly being insensitive in the past. There's a whole load of finger-pointing and "Look how sensitive I am, standing up for what's right". But what I'd like to know is: if it was so obvious that the performers should have known better, why weren't their attackers now saying something about it then?
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Post by sf on Aug 6, 2020 15:09:44 GMT
I find it quite disturbing how readily people are willing to attack performers for purportedly being insensitive in the past. There's a whole load of finger-pointing and "Look how sensitive I am, standing up for what's right". But what I'd like to know is: if it was so obvious that the performers should have known better, why weren't their attackers now saying something about it then?
Well, in some cases, they were. The casting of Jonathan Pryce and Keith Burns in Miss Saigon (shamefully) passed more or less without comment in London, at least in the show's press coverage - I was 16 at the time, I don't think I was an unusually 'woke' teenager, and I thought the make-up and prosthetics were wince-inducing - but when Pryce was cast in the Broadway production (where they wouldn't have dared cast a white actor as Thuy, as they did in London) it (justifiably) provoked a huge row.
And re: the London production - if I, at 16, could see that some of the casting choices, and the makeup that went with them, were in questionable taste, somebody on the production team might have figured it out as well.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 6, 2020 19:12:08 GMT
Does the cast colour of BAME actors now have to be perfect too? I think the question you should be asking is why should it not be? Unless the piece of theatre/film in question specifically calls for a person to be played by a different ethnicity (e.g. Hamilton) then any attempt not to cast the correct ethnicity for the character, or one that fits the context of the programme/show, is just lazy. My point would be lets say people of Caribbean are of various different casts it may not be possible to get everyone of the perfect cast if you want the best available actor/actress as long as it is as near to possible as right or if a minor character isn't quite right I can accept that. |
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Post by Jan on Aug 13, 2020 12:09:06 GMT
I would have thought Hamilton should be problematic - celebrating someone who actually at one time worked for a slave -trading company and bought and sold slaves - all airbrushed out of the play which also artificially boosts his abolitionist credentials.
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Post by crabtree on Aug 13, 2020 21:03:11 GMT
How about Titus and the character of Aaron, the moor. certainly the last few productions I have seen have featured an appropriate actor, but I'm sure it was not always thus. Wasn't anthony Quayle in blackface for the Olivier/Leigh production? And how's the language these days?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 14, 2020 12:25:08 GMT
How about Titus and the character of Aaron, the moor. certainly the last few productions I have seen have featured an appropriate actor, but I'm sure it was not always thus. Wasn't anthony Quayle in blackface for the Olivier/Leigh production? And how's the language these days? Olivier was in black make up for the Othello fim in about 1965 so the production you mention was before that I'd figure. |
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Post by lynette on Aug 14, 2020 12:28:40 GMT
How about Titus and the character of Aaron, the moor. certainly the last few productions I have seen have featured an appropriate actor, but I'm sure it was not always thus. Wasn't anthony Quayle in blackface for the Olivier/Leigh production? And how's the language these days? Olivier was in black make up for the Othello fim in about 1965 so the production you mention was before that I'd figure. Olivier was on stage before it was a film. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2020 12:27:39 GMT
Olivier was in black make up for the Othello fim in about 1965 so the production you mention was before that I'd figure. Olivier was on stage before it was a film. The 1964/65 film was effectively a filmed version of the stage production I recall. |
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Post by frappuccino on Oct 4, 2020 6:12:24 GMT
America is just...
Noam Chomsky said ANTIFA is a gift to the far right because they justify the use of force. When a revolution turns violent, the more vicious often win (more vicious=right wing). He said you cannot blame black people from being angry, but the supporters have to be super disciplined about not using violence and being PEACEFUL.
This video is Not F****** Around Coalition. A black militia group.
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Post by Someone in a tree on Feb 21, 2021 9:46:41 GMT
Yesterday i was listening to Dames at sea for the first time and the song Singapore Sue really stood out. Is it normally performed ? I did see at the Union Theatre yonks ago but i dont remember Sue
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Post by Deleted on Feb 22, 2021 19:05:14 GMT
I’m against the idea of censoring.
Characters can behave and say things that are homophobic, racist etc
The issue maybe where a character is written as a stereotype. However, where does that stop? Look at the work of Marina Carr and the way she writes in an accent attributed to the traveller community in By the Bog of Cats but while not specified in the text but the audience would recognise the signifiers. Especially Irish audiences and perhaps UK audiences but that would be lost on American audiences.
Or look at how the revival of Carousel tanked because they were trying to impose 21st Century morals on a 19th century musical without changing or framing it.
The theme of domestic violence and the way people are in denial is not glamourising it, it’s a harsh reality of life. The director can block the scene and change the meaning of the ending for Julie without ever changing a word. Directors can move away from realism and allow actors pass judgement on the characters with an alienation affect.
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Post by joem on Feb 24, 2021 12:46:22 GMT
Stop all productions of everything, then no one can be offended about anything.
Oops! Looks like you got your wish!
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Post by Deleted on Mar 15, 2021 18:22:42 GMT
Well if 3 per cent of the UK population is black that is NOT represented in UK adverts! It’s more like 50 per cent or more. I agree times have changed and with BLM and social justice here there and everywhere BOM is past its sell by date. Funny to some is now offensive to others. I get that. Do we adapt? Change? Or is this all a passing trend? This kind of attitude is exactly the problem. Bringing this over from the Book of Mormon thread, for some non-argumentative discussion. musicalmarge - You say that "more than 50%" of the actors in adverts are black, whilst implying a grievance that this is over-representative of the UK population. When you say 'Black' are you taking Asian, mixed and other heritage into this statement? If so, I think this is quite a savage, offensive and hurtful statement. Also, Im interested in why you think a strong mixed representation is a bad thing in media as your comments suggest? For a lot of cultures currently represented, their inclusion in recent years has been the beginning of new opportunities for these actors and also the communities they represent, which previously had been ignored or not spoken for. |
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Post by sph on Mar 15, 2021 21:08:11 GMT
I don't know anything about adverts and I thing strong representation is a good thing. It brings up an interesting point though regarding proportionate representation.
For example, let's say a minority group makes up 5% of the population. You go to see a play with a cast of ten. One cast member is of that minority group. That makes ten percent of the cast. Some would say this looks like "tokenism" and that it isn't enough representation, when proportionately, it is double the percentage of the population.
All minority groups should be represented (I'm a member of a minority group myself), but at the same time I understand that my minority group will not be represented as plentifully as white or straight people for example, because... it's a minority, and I can't expect to see equal numbers of my minority everywhere because that's not statistically possible.
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Post by inthenose on Apr 2, 2021 16:16:46 GMT
The Phantom of the Opera - the implication that all "physically different" people are psychotic serial killers, all Italians are fat egotists, all French people surrender easily (they buy a new chandelier after all, and do nothing to actually be certain the Phantom is gone, even after several murders, that is until a pretty white girl is kidnapped). Not very woke is it!
Also, The Mikado, Flower Drum Song
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