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Post by theglenbucklaird on Jun 8, 2020 20:45:38 GMT
Sleep well my friend, these kind of reactions between you and me are going nowhere. Our points are clear. Red Wall, voted Tory?
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Post by Latecomer on Jun 8, 2020 21:39:19 GMT
Interestingly George the Poet was on the radio a while back. He said he thought much the same as Dave25 ...he ended up doing a degree at Cambridge having managed to break away from rough estate in London....until he actually studied how people behave (anthropology) at university. Then he thought back and realised that nearly all his friends had, for example, no father present in their life, and that he was the exception, or outlier, being able to break free from probably ending up as a criminal. He was really interesting to listen to. He explained in some detail why people ended up how they did and said he was basically naive and simplistic before he had properly thought it though.
The point I make is that it is easy and lazy to think how Dave25 does. To really question takes courage and hard work and is not easy. That’s why so many people don’t bother.
And I will just say... in any walk of life you get people who will cheat a system....it’s just that somehow not paying your fair share in society and shielding your money from the tax man is admired rather than despised. Not very supportive of all those NHS nurses is it?
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Post by xanady on Jun 8, 2020 21:56:39 GMT
Been working away today and just opened up this thread and...omg!!
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Post by theatremadness on Jun 9, 2020 0:02:54 GMT
I knew it was a bad idea to look through this thread late at night....my blood pressure is through the roof!
Thanks to all the posters and mods who have been having to try and debate why racism is bad today. As if that's a sentence I actually have to write.
Can we just take a second to remember one very important thing: Dave25 is a racist. That might seem extreme but I’m sick of not calling it out enough. We have a racist on our forum, I think it's pretty clear to see. Just take a look at what he has written on this thread. The detail he has gone into to make sure he is absolutely certain that a black life will not be treated as equal as his is? It's the absolute lowest of the low.
Why do we still have this racist on our forum? They do not want to to listen. They do not want to learn or grow.
When do we finally say: enough is enough?
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Post by Phantom of London on Jun 9, 2020 0:19:59 GMT
Candace Owen is the American equivalent of Katie Hopkins.
They both make arguments with vile hyperbole than facts.
Well Dave25 you certainly have nailed your colours to the flag and quoting Candace Owen and other posts in other threads, just validates who you rally are.
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Post by sallybowles on Jun 9, 2020 0:26:54 GMT
I knew it was a bad idea to look through this thread late at night....my blood pressure is through the roof! Thanks to all the posters and mods who have been having to try and debate why racism is bad today. As if that's a sentence I actually have to write. Can we just take a second to remember one very important thing: Dave25 is a racist. That might seem extreme but I’m sick of not calling it out enough. We have a racist on our forum, I think it's pretty clear to see. Just take a look at what he has written on this thread. The detail he has gone into to make sure he is absolutely certain that a black life will not be treated as equal as his is? It's the absolute lowest of the low. Why do we still have this racist on our forum? They do not want to to listen. They do not want to learn or grow. When do we finally say: enough is enough? I have been saying that for years. But for some reason my replies always get deleted by the mods here. Calling someone a race troll is apparently too offensive. I have been dealing with Dave on the BWW boards (I’m a mod there since 2008) in numerous threads and all of his 999 different accounts. Dave19 Davs28282 Are two of his accounts on the BWW forum.
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Post by djp on Jun 9, 2020 1:24:11 GMT
I am torn on these protests, we are definitely at a dangerous phase which will determine whether we get the virus under control and similarly we need to find the opportunity to shine a light on the racism that still exists in society which continues to manifest itself during this crisis. BAME people are 15% of the UK population but received 22% of the coronavirus lockdown fines and in London this rose to 41% and have twice the death rate from coronavirus. I'm torn on it too. As with so many things in life, if there was an easy answer we'd have taken it. I think the initial protests were absolutely necessary. I've heard many stories of the brutality and racism endemic in the US police, and also the corruption and the look-the-other-way culture that makes it so rare for perpetrators to be brought to justice. That does seem to have been changing for a while but the expectation is still that the police will "get away with it" and people need to be able to trust that there will be proper investigations. These protests have certainly brought much greater attention to how easily the police can just say "self defence" and bury the issue. But there comes a point where further protests achieve nothing and are just stirring up problems that can actually obstruct necessary change. Throwing bottles at the UK police isn't going to do anything to fix racism anywhere. Far too many people think that if they make a lot of noise then somehow magic will happen and the noise will be transmuted into the change they want to see but it obviously doesn't work like that. Right now I don't think the protests are achieving anything new. Twice as much protest doesn't result in twice as much change, and at this time when distancing is imperative the overall effect of continuing the protests may end up doing more harm than good. Essentially true. Some people seem to have just discovered whats been obvious for decades - some US police tend to be trigger happy, and many are inclined to use unnecessary force. But this would be the same with or without racist overtones, or causes. The essential problem is the Second Amendment. If you are trying to police a country where there's many more guns than people, endemic gang warfare, and any lunatic can go around with their own arsenal of military grade weapons , you get a nervous, frightened police force that prefers not to risk getting shot, sees the world in terms of us and them, and acts aggressively . And that spills over into recruitment and attitude - who would want to take the risks of being shot anyday dictates who gets the job- so you get some people who ignore all rules of restraint, and kill people for no conceivable reason, and people who bulldoze pensioners in their way , group think, and commanders who order their men not to pick up said, white, pensioner because that not in the orders of the day.
Beyond better selection vetting, wider recruitment, retraining and better disciplinary procedures ,which might help on the margins, the US is stuck with that problem . It doesn't matter whoever marches, and whoever they elect- because the Second Amendment can't be changed - as most of the small states won't vote for it so you can't get the necessary Constitutional majority. And given no one knows who has how many guns ,even if you could pass gun control legislation , there's no way to enforce it.
There's also a lack of, and selective , knowledge of the real world at work here. People are justifiably angry watching George effectively being tortured to death for no reason . But they might also have been angry about a hell of a lot of other current issues they ignore - like the Sunni being carpet bombed by Russia in Syria, the iranian 14 year old girl who was just lawfully beheaded by her father in a honour killing for misbehaviour , or the Chinese throwing much of their Moslem population in concentration camps, and bulldozing their graveyards and turning them into car parks. Minneapolis police and Trump are awful, but they are far from the only awful leader and police force out there, people should have been marching against before, if they had a consistent, view.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2020 5:54:56 GMT
Dave Yeah, I think I'm done for the day. Made my point. An important point. The racism, faith in untrustworthy sources, and misunderstanding datasets was made in one of your first posts on this topic. Everything since then has simply been more of the same. I've worked in this field for more than a decade, and you have no idea what you are talking about. And at this point, making any further effort to engage with you on the topic is energy better spent on protesting and persuading policymakers of the necessary change to make. Adieu.
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Post by The Matthew on Jun 9, 2020 6:02:51 GMT
So... Would people like us to clean up this thread, or leave it as an example of the denialism that extremist misrepresentation of the facts can cause?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2020 6:27:38 GMT
Minneapolis police and Trump are awful, but they are far from the only awful leader and police force out there, people should have been marching against before, if they had a consistent, view. Well, if full-time protesting was my vocation, I'd march daily on a variety of atrocities around the world. But because I'm not and I don't, it does not mean I don't hold a consistent view. It means I have to choose how, when, and where to act on that view given the resources I have available and the likelihood that I can affect change. The world has more than 7.5 billion people, so more than enough for individuals to select those issues for which they are most passionate and to respond accordingly. We don't all have to care about the same things in order for meaningful change to be enacted. So it has always been, and so it shall likely always be.
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Post by poster J on Jun 9, 2020 7:19:40 GMT
So... Would people like us to clean up this thread, or leave it as an example of the denialism that extremist misrepresentation of the facts can cause? I think you should leave it as it is. One poster's abhorrent views should not lead to the deletion of everyone else's rebuttals and support for what is right here. It's a reminder of (sadly) how far there is to go with some people, but also that we can all do better and that we can and should keep calling out those who perpetuate racism in any of its forms.
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Post by Someone in a tree on Jun 9, 2020 10:07:45 GMT
Proud to be a Yorkshire man
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Post by theatremadness on Jun 9, 2020 10:13:29 GMT
So... Would people like us to clean up this thread, or leave it as an example of the denialism that extremist misrepresentation of the facts can cause? Yeah I think the latter and PosterJ is right. Cleaning up the thread would possibly look like we're trying to say these kind of views don't exist, and I think the more people see what some people are really like, the better. I do stand by my view though, that how long can we allow someone who holds such proud racist views to be allowed an account? Is there no clear violation of rules because he's careful with the words he chooses and therefore it's essentially at the mods discretion?
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Post by poster J on Jun 9, 2020 10:37:05 GMT
Proud to be a Yorkshire man PG Tips' response and #solidaritea hashtag are equally excellent.
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Post by sf on Jun 9, 2020 11:21:13 GMT
So... Would people like us to clean up this thread, or leave it as an example of the denialism that extremist misrepresentation of the facts can cause?
I would vote to leave it as it is. Only one individual has posted anything they should be ashamed of, and I think it's never helpful to sweep that kind of appalling ignorance under the carpet. It's all around us, it's much closer to the mainstream than we'd like to think, and pretending it doesn't exist doesn't make it go away. These protests are happening precisely because too many people have looked the other way for too long.
And I think it's also helpful for people who encounter that individual in future to be able to see exactly what they're dealing with.
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Post by The Matthew on Jun 9, 2020 11:27:10 GMT
I do stand by my view though, that how long can we allow someone who holds such proud racist views to be allowed an account? Is there no clear violation of rules because he's careful with the words he chooses and therefore it's essentially at the mods discretion? We don't ban people lightly. It's a last resort: we first try to talk them round and get them to behave. If they won't change their ways then we discuss what to do about it, and if enough of us agree then we ban them. It takes time, especially as we're not all online at the same time. It's easy for people to complain that we haven't acted quickly enough when dealing with other posters but I'm sure nobody would want us to rush into a decision if we were dealing with complaints about them. I think this is the first time I've intervened without discussion and agreement among all of us. But then, it's not often somebody quotes as a supporting source a person who believes that the problem with Hitler was that he was too ambitious.
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Post by theglenbucklaird on Jun 9, 2020 11:34:01 GMT
I don't see a lost cause National Front case that were fronted from the 1970's. We can help him. My first thought yesterday was ridicule but I wish I had approached this differently. Should have been more sympathetic how someone had found Candace Owens and was posting her views as mainstream.
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Post by theatremadness on Jun 9, 2020 11:52:57 GMT
I do stand by my view though, that how long can we allow someone who holds such proud racist views to be allowed an account? Is there no clear violation of rules because he's careful with the words he chooses and therefore it's essentially at the mods discretion? We don't ban people lightly. It's a last resort: we first try to talk them round and get them to behave. If they won't change their ways then we discuss what to do about it, and if enough of us agree then we ban them. It takes time, especially as we're not all online at the same time. It's easy for people to complain that we haven't acted quickly enough when dealing with other posters but I'm sure nobody would want us to rush into a decision if we were dealing with complaints about them. I think this is the first time I've intervened without discussion and agreement among all of us. But then, it's not often somebody quotes as a supporting source a person who believes that the problem with Hitler was that he was too ambitious. That makes total sense, I completely understand. Also very easy to forget (myself included) that this is not your job. So thanks to all mods for your work. I read her views on Globalism and Nationalism a few days ago (as a result of calling a Facebook friend out for sharing Candace Owens' video which led to *them* removing *me* as a friend) and it's truly staggering!
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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2020 12:50:11 GMT
I came in to see what was being said in this thread, and i saw Dave reference a video... i started to scroll back to find said video, thinking to myself, please don't let it be THAT video... DOH!
Candace Owens has found a way to make a name for herself and make money. She said that Amy Cooper (Central Park dog walker) was not racist at all. Even aftyer she saw the video of her fake crying into her phone about an 'african american man is threatening my life'
These protests are not about George Floyd, but a much larger picture, and i believe they do make a big impact. I hope that, finally, we see actual change happen in our society.
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Post by theatreian on Jun 9, 2020 12:53:32 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2020 14:21:50 GMT
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Post by theglenbucklaird on Jun 9, 2020 14:37:09 GMT
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Post by theatremadness on Jun 9, 2020 15:06:11 GMT
There's a lengthy post on Facebook by Patrick Wayne Benjamin-Lange which you can read in full on his page but I thought this section on statistics is prettt interesting given some posts on previous pages.
“15. “More white people are killed by cops than black people. Here are the statistics...” - I love when people do research! Thank you for that! But those stats that you’re proudly flashing around aren’t an accurate reflection of the issue. According to data, there are aprox. 234,370,202 white people In the United States. Comparatively, that same data states that there are 40,610,815 “Black” Americans. So, when your stats show 1,398 white people have been killed by officers since 2017 and only 543 Black people, what those statistics really show is .0005% of white people were killed by police in those 3.5 years, while .0011% of black people were killed by police. That means, black people were killed 220% more often by police, even though they make up only 12% of the population compared to white peoples 73%. Math has no racial bias. Those aren’t good stats. Stop using them to defend your position.
16. “Black people commit more crime...” - Do they really though? According to data released in 2017, there were 475,900 black prisoners in state and federal prisons and 436,500 white prisoners. That’s a difference of about 9%. So for arguments sake, let’s say those numbers are an accurate reflection of the amount of crime committed. If people of colour commit only 9% more crime, why are they killed by police 220% more often?
17. “Well, the same stats you mentioned shows that even though they’re only 12% of the population, they commit 54% of the crime.” - Good Catch! But those numbers don’t actually reflect the amount of crime committed. That’s why I said to assume they’re correct. Those numbers only reveal how many people are incarcerated. The reality is, while those numbers are all we have to go on, they don’t tell the complete story either. In the United States specifically, socioeconomic racism, which was designed to keep POC in poverty through district red-lining, a lower quality of education and other systemic obstacles, is a huge component. Thanks to redlining (look it up) and other zoning and banking practices, quality of education in “black” neighbourhoods is significantly lower, which means the average income for POC in those neighbours is lower and the unemployment much higher. Also thanks to redlining, the unemployment rate, and lower income rates, crime in those neighborhoods tends to be higher. That means those neighborhoods are patrolled by police more often. Thanks to racial bias, POC are followed, stopped, harassed and arrested more frequently than the white people who live in those same neighbourhoods. What all of this means is that, when POC are arrested more frequently, they often can’t afford fancy lawyers to help them. They usually end up with Public Defenders, who are often overworked, and they often encourage POC to plead guilty in exchange for less time. Then there’s the fact that, because white people make up 73% of the population, they also tend to make up a bigger percentage of Jurors. There’s lots of factors to consider. So don’t assume that just because they make up 54% of the people in jail, that they make up 54% of the crime. The entire system is broken. That’s part of the problem.“
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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2020 19:03:11 GMT
Major new initiative launched in the States: "We See You, White American Theater" weseeyouwat.com#weseeyou
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Post by londonpostie on Jun 9, 2020 19:49:53 GMT
Another slave trader statue removed :
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Post by londonpostie on Jun 9, 2020 19:58:06 GMT
Because I've had an early drink, there's this as well from back in my day
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Post by sf on Jun 9, 2020 21:35:25 GMT
This seems overdue, and shouldn't be limited to just two cities:
It's also long past time we took a critical look at the contents of the ironically-named British Museum.
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Post by ali973 on Jun 10, 2020 20:20:31 GMT
So I'm posting on the forum again, because pandemic. I just noticed that there is a thread about BLM / Protests / George Floyd. Can someone be kind enough to give me an executive summary of what's happening here because I don't feel like reading 8 pages worth of racism and/or performative empathy (some of you that I know are alright though and speak the truth). Also, a list of racists would be greatly appreciated.
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Post by intoanewlife on Jun 10, 2020 20:27:37 GMT
So I'm posting on the forum again, because pandemic. I just noticed that there is a thread about BLM / Protests / George Floyd. Can someone be kind enough to give me an executive summary of what's happening here because I don't feel like reading 8 pages worth of racism and/or performative empathy (some of you that I know are alright though and speak the truth). Also, a list of racists would be greatly appreciated.
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Post by theglenbucklaird on Jun 10, 2020 20:34:43 GMT
So I'm posting on the forum again, because pandemic. I just noticed that there is a thread about BLM / Protests / George Floyd. Can someone be kind enough to give me an executive summary of what's happening here because I don't feel like reading 8 pages worth of racism and/or performative empathy (some of you that I know are alright though and speak the truth). Also, a list of racists would be greatly appreciated. He he
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