643 posts
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Post by christya on Oct 31, 2020 21:17:27 GMT
I'm not sure how they can expect people to take it seriously when they leave schools and universities open. So I'm not supposed to visit a friend for coffee, though nobody in either of our homes works outside the home and we shop at the same place - but a child can go to school and sit in a classroom of 30 other kids, whose families do a mix of jobs and have varying levels of exposure.
Really makes me feel like an idiot for complying, to be honest. I appreciate that I'm lucky to be able to still work, but slogging away on 12 hour days because of how busy we are, and being expected to give up the small bit of socialising I was doing because of increased numbers that I didn't cause in the first place, while they don't even bother closing schools, just makes me angry.
Not to mention there'll be a panic on come December when people try to get their Christmas shopping done all at once. I can't see people being willing to give up their Christmas after this sh*tshow of a year.
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Post by Samwise on Oct 31, 2020 21:18:32 GMT
The lack of support for the self employed and workers in the arts in the first lockdown was unbelievable. But now in Lockdown 2 it's unforgivable! Not to mention those who had no support first time round. Universal Basic Income will need to become part of the conversation very soon. I agree, but it won't be this Toryshambles government that brings it up. |
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Post by talkingheads on Oct 31, 2020 21:20:41 GMT
The lack of support for the self employed and workers in the arts in the first lockdown was unbelievable. But now in Lockdown 2 it's unforgivable! Not to mention those who had no support first time round. Universal Basic Income will need to become part of the conversation very soon. I agree, but it won't be this Toryshambles government that brings it up. I honestly don't see that they'll have much choice. Lots of people made redundant already due to furlough ending, second lockdown will cripple a lot of businesses. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 31, 2020 21:58:51 GMT
I'm not sure how they can expect people to take it seriously when they leave schools and universities open. So I'm not supposed to visit a friend for coffee, though nobody in either of our homes works outside the home and we shop at the same place - but a child can go to school and sit in a classroom of 30 other kids, whose families do a mix of jobs and have varying levels of exposure. Really makes me feel like an idiot for complying, to be honest. I appreciate that I'm lucky to be able to still work, but slogging away on 12 hour days because of how busy we are, and being expected to give up the small bit of socialising I was doing because of increased numbers that I didn't cause in the first place, while they don't even bother closing schools, just makes me angry. Not to mention there'll be a panic on come December when people try to get their Christmas shopping done all at once. I can't see people being willing to give up their Christmas after this sh*tshow of a year. Sums it up in a nutshell for me - I can't see this lockdown making the level of difference it needs to for the NHS because the key problems are being allowed to continue, and the major sources of cases outside hospitals aren't being further restricted at all. Instead, all it will do is drive many more people into an even more precarious economic and/or psychological state which will come with its own huge set of problems, the repercussions of which will long outlast this pandemic. It's just a joke - either lock down in the only way that will make a substantial difference (full lockdown) or don't. This misdirected mess doesn't help anyone. |
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Post by Mark on Oct 31, 2020 22:51:33 GMT
LOAD OF CRAP.
I'm STILL allowed to work on an aircraft full of people, but not allowed to meet a friend for a cuppa. Well screw it. My own mental health is more important than this crap. I'll be seeing friends indoors without a single ounce of guilt.
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5,077 posts
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Post by Phantom of London on Oct 31, 2020 23:55:33 GMT
Professor Neil Ferguson (Lockdown Neil) the epidemiologist who ADVISED the government that we should go into a lockdown. Then the week he slowly go pushed under a bus by the establishment when they wanted to listen to economists instead of the science, well that man that got pushed under a bus was right all along. Unfortunately on his Wiki pages he is wearing glasses, he can’t use that as an excuse.
Although whether you are for a lockdown or against, we can all rally together on one point and that it has been a crap year.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 1, 2020 1:00:22 GMT
Honestly, what is the point in any of this if thousands of kids are mixing in schools? My thoughts exactly - though include universities as well. The whole point is to try to reduce the number of hospital admissions at any one time, yet the major sources of infection and spread are not being closed and those who are, on the whole, taking adequate precautions are losing their livelihoods again. You couldn't make it up. Thank goodness my hairdresser had last minute availability today...! Also, the work from home is not affecting the major sources of transmission among businesses as well. Manual workers in cramped and noisy conditions aren’t going to be sitting at home on furlough, those in food processing factories will still be the same. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 1, 2020 6:03:46 GMT
Sir Iain "Please Remember Me" Duncan Smith is saying something to the effect of "How dare the PM listen to scientific advice". He accuses SAGE of "publicly lecturing" the government, in what appears to be a public lecture aimed at the government.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 1, 2020 9:28:13 GMT
Here we go again.
I feel like I ‘wasted’ last lockdown, so have opted to set myself some challenges this time around. The art supplies are ordered so I’m going to try my hand at doing a painting every day, get myself through a book a week and listen to a different musical cast album every day of this lockdown.
So screw you Covid - I’m going to enjoy myself.
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Post by zahidf on Nov 1, 2020 9:56:51 GMT
Whitty and Valence in a grinch costume snatching presents from kids.
Stasi grabbing nan and putting her in a van if she tries to visit her newly born grandkids.
Brave freedom fighters muzzled with fascist cloth
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Post by Deleted on Nov 1, 2020 10:14:04 GMT
Sir Iain "Please Remember Me" Duncan Smith is saying something to the effect of "How dare the PM listen to scientific advice". He accuses SAGE of "publicly lecturing" the government, in what appears to be a public lecture aimed at the government. Surely the point is that the scientific advice is entirely inconsistent and many scientists are contradicting each other. There are numerous pieces of research from eminent institutions that all come up with vastly different mortality rates, for example. They might all be wrong, but they all deserve the same level of consideration and scrutiny. We shouldn't just blindly listen to SAGE as if they are omnipotent and never wrong, because that's just not true. They have to be subjected to criticism and compared to other views. If that is what Duncan Smith is effectively saying, then he isn't wrong. |
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Post by olliebean on Nov 1, 2020 11:43:43 GMT
I feel like I ‘wasted’ last lockdown You and the government both. |
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Post by Rozzi Rainbow on Nov 1, 2020 21:11:47 GMT
It's all well and good having a lockdown to get the situation back under control, but then a few weeks after it's lifted we'll just be back where we are now. And there will have been a huge impact on people's businesses, jobs, livelihoods, mental health etc. In my opinion a lockdown wouldn't solve the problem, just push it along a bit.
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Post by NeilVHughes on Nov 1, 2020 21:21:19 GMT
All we havee at the moment is ‘push it along’ to make sure the NHS can balance both COVID and ‘regular’ life threatening illnesses.
If we had reacted sooner we could have got away with an 12 week cycle of 10 week ‘open’ 2 week closed instead of what we have now which is likely to be months of restrictions.
This is likely the path that Wales will traverse until the Summer with another 2 week lockdown early January whilst England is likely to be still under tight restrictions throughout the whole Winter.
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Post by christya on Nov 1, 2020 22:20:11 GMT
I'm actually convinced they're just kicking the can down the road, wanting to open back up in December to avoid accusations of cancelling Christmas, then 'oops, cases up again' and back into lockdown in January.
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Post by djp on Nov 1, 2020 23:40:25 GMT
Sir Iain "Please Remember Me" Duncan Smith is saying something to the effect of "How dare the PM listen to scientific advice". He accuses SAGE of "publicly lecturing" the government, in what appears to be a public lecture aimed at the government. Surely the point is that the scientific advice is entirely inconsistent and many scientists are contradicting each other. There are numerous pieces of research from eminent institutions that all come up with vastly different mortality rates, for example. They might all be wrong, but they all deserve the same level of consideration and scrutiny. We shouldn't just blindly listen to SAGE as if they are omnipotent and never wrong, because that's just not true. They have to be subjected to criticism and compared to other views. If that is what Duncan Smith is effectively saying, then he isn't wrong. The truth is that maths and science tends often to produce people who are good at one thing and hopeless at another . They also have mindsets that would throw up their hands in horror if given arts or social science or historical questions which don't resolve into an equation. You find science students who can get firsts in one paper and fail others miserably - whereas in most arts or social sciences your students will more often have marks that lie around one level. There's also the schools and tribes who appoint each other to post, s and some people as elsewhere that are just not very good, past over, or worse bear grudges. With Corona, the evidence is overwhelmingly that anyone who wants to rely on herd immunity, or a futile effort to protect the vulnerable, can safely be ignored .Herd immunity takes forever, and immunity is not long lasting, and the vulnerable and their families come to half the population, and rely on contact with the other half.
SAGE has a range of views and produces a range of estimates. The independent SAGE group tends to be even more cautious . The problem is that all projections point to NHS overload and people dying at home, or on trolleys, who can't be treated. And that is where areas of Spain, Belgium, italy , America have already been or are nearing now. There's also an element of not assuming that the current R rate of 1.2 will keep on falling . If it goes up, by the same as its come down with the tier restrictions, we end up where those graphs put us, and if R is nearer 1.2 we still end up there later.
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Post by djp on Nov 1, 2020 23:55:57 GMT
All we havee at the moment is ‘push it along’ to make sure the NHS can balance both COVID and ‘regular’ life threatening illnesses. If we had reacted sooner we could have got away with an 12 week cycle of 10 week ‘open’ 2 week closed instead of what we have now which is likely to be months of restrictions. This is likely the path that Wales will traverse until the Summer with another 2 week lockdown early January whilst England is likely to be still under tight restrictions throughout the whole Winter. Its not clear that lockdown will work - the minimum estimated impact is only a 10% reduction- the maximum is a 80% reduction. Its essentially an effort to shut down anything that may help transmission rates fall . But it includes hospitality which has produced few known cases of infection, and retail which SAGE previously stated causes minimal infections since distancing and masks came in . But it leaves universities on campus adding more to the R number - because having moved students there, you risk sending them home now with infections. And there's now conflicting evidence on schools - even within the government presentation.
Starmer's proposed circuit breaker was proposed by SAGE a month earlier and regarded as inappropriate when proposed again by the Chief Scientist , as the country was then much more divided with areas of almost no infection and others with very high levels . The Sage paper it comes from makes the point that it gives a period of grace, but then it needs redoing. Stop go is where we are unless we find a way to push R below 1 thats sustainable -like sending universities back home , until the vaccine (s) arrives and works.
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Post by talkingheads on Nov 1, 2020 23:59:25 GMT
I'm reading a lot about people on Universal Credit being sanctioned. Is this being addressed anytime soon before the lockdown? How are people meant to look for work if we're being told stay at home?
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Post by djp on Nov 2, 2020 0:16:12 GMT
I'm not sure how they can expect people to take it seriously when they leave schools and universities open. So I'm not supposed to visit a friend for coffee, though nobody in either of our homes works outside the home and we shop at the same place - but a child can go to school and sit in a classroom of 30 other kids, whose families do a mix of jobs and have varying levels of exposure. Really makes me feel like an idiot for complying, to be honest. I appreciate that I'm lucky to be able to still work, but slogging away on 12 hour days because of how busy we are, and being expected to give up the small bit of socialising I was doing because of increased numbers that I didn't cause in the first place, while they don't even bother closing schools, just makes me angry. Not to mention there'll be a panic on come December when people try to get their Christmas shopping done all at once. I can't see people being willing to give up their Christmas after this sh*tshow of a year. Universities were an obvious mistake . there's no point when most teaching is online and the student stories of being in halls of residence with rampant covid were entirely predictable Sunak should have filled in the university's income hole, and university management should have been ordered to go off campus. Even Sage projected that doing that would reduce R by more than closing down retail and hospitality - which were more effectively distancing . No one will admit the mistake and its not recoverable without risking sending infected students home nationwide. And as Labour in Wales , the SNP and Starmer all supported students returning, no other party avoids that blame.
Schools are more difficult. The theory is that they are distanced and children out of school would not be as controlled to distance . There's also meant to be few cases originating in schools , and those that do come from outside activities. But twitter today is alive with video of no control, and no distancing in schools, or school transport and tables of multiple infections. The theory seems not to match reality - at least where the schools have failed to sort out distancing or school transport. The governments own graphs show cases starting to rise steeply when schools went back, and the 16-24 age group being the most infected and spreading the virus to older groups. Schools also represented a bigger impact on the R number than retail or hospitality,
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Post by olliebean on Nov 2, 2020 8:14:53 GMT
I understand the argument for keeping schools open; the problem is that the government hasn't given them any additional resources or support to help with distancing and other measures to keep them covid-safe. This ought to be as much of a scandal as the insufficient support for businesses and other organisations.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 2, 2020 10:52:14 GMT
Would it be too cynical to imagine that the discussion went something like:
"Should we close the schools as well?"
"Hell, no! Have you met my children? I'm not going through that again."
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Post by clair on Nov 2, 2020 11:12:54 GMT
Thank you for making me laugh with that comment! It's a tough time, facing redundancy and now my workplace is closed again so I might not even get a final shift there but that really made my day - so many friends will relate to that idea
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Post by lynette on Nov 2, 2020 16:57:02 GMT
I understand the argument for keeping schools open; the problem is that the government hasn't given them any additional resources or support to help with distancing and other measures to keep them covid-safe. This ought to be as much of a scandal as the insufficient support for businesses and other organisations. I completely agree that schools need more support for everything, in particular techie solutions for teachers to teach more than one group etc inside a building and then extra helpers, maybe more staff rooms and facilities, more dinner ladies and so on. Kids need to be ready in case they have to go home, so good laptops or similar provided with passcodes and so on. But I do think that children should be in school and for longer if possible. They are safer there; they eat a decent dinner; they can talk to grown ups; they develop socially and hey, they learn stuff so they can do better than we have in the future. Imagine the horror if this virus attacked children in particular. Let’s be thankful it doesn’t ( though long term effects, physical and mental, yet to be known) Teachers have been underpaid and under appreciated for a while so this might be the turning point. We are demanding more from them. Virus wise they might be taking more risks (not proven though) but please let us all put the kids first and keep the little sweeties in school. |
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Post by talkingheads on Nov 3, 2020 9:20:26 GMT
With schools, Unis, film and TV production, theatre rehearsals and many other workplaces open, isn't this even less of a lockdown than last time, in which case I am struggling to see a lot of positives? With retail not responsible for a lot of the spread, what is the good of closing that sector but not schools? Maybe it's obvious but I just can't see it.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 3, 2020 14:57:28 GMT
With schools, Unis, film and TV production, theatre rehearsals and many other workplaces open, isn't this even less of a lockdown than last time, in which case I am struggling to see a lot of positives? With retail not responsible for a lot of the spread, what is the good of closing that sector but not schools? Maybe it's obvious but I just can't see it. I genuinely believe Boris didn’t want to just shut down the hospitality industry. Pubs are the main issue in my opinion and why he couldn’t just shut them months ago is beyond me. |
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