7,208 posts
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Post by Jon on Oct 5, 2021 10:28:19 GMT
Permanent working from home five days a week I don't see happening but a hybrid approach is likely to emerge. WFH has its perks but it can be isolating for many and also not everyone's home is suitable for WFH.
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Post by lichtie on Oct 5, 2021 10:30:20 GMT
Not sniping - seriously interested. What would be legally impossible? I can see difficult and possibly a few areas that would be impossible but don’t see a huge problem. And what are the high tax problems? That companies would have to pay a higher tax rate if they employ people to work from home. No government is going to mandate that. They might remove the tax breaks you can have if you use your home as an office, but even that won't happen under a Tory government as a large fraction of their contributing supporters will be in that category. Different jobs have always had different workplaces. All that's happening is a change in where some of those workplaces are. If a government were serious about moving against a worldwide trend they would be better off with carrots (tax breaks for travelling to work for everyone for example). That's not going to happen any time soon either. The only people with influence really calling for something to be done are the property owners who are about to see values diminish. The big companies by and large can already see the advantage of having a much smaller property footprint for their office staff with people coming into the office on a rota system. The only reason the government ever sticks their oar in on this one is because Johnston wants to declare the war against covid won, and normality regained, and to shut the even dimmer members of the commentariat in the press up. |
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Post by theglenbucklaird on Oct 5, 2021 10:35:39 GMT
Permanent working from home five days a week I don't see happening but a hybrid approach is likely to emerge. WFH has its perks but it can be isolating for many and also not everyone's home is suitable for WFH. We're home working permanently now. But I agree a hybrid will be more normal if a significant change happens |
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Post by hairspray57 on Oct 5, 2021 10:43:34 GMT
That companies would have to pay a higher tax rate if they employ people to work from home. No government is going to mandate that. They might remove the tax breaks you can have if you use your home as an office, but even that won't happen under a Tory government as a large fraction of their contributing supporters will be in that category. Different jobs have always had different workplaces. All that's happening is a change in where some of those workplaces are. If a government were serious about moving against a worldwide trend they would be better off with carrots (tax breaks for travelling to work for everyone for example). That's not going to happen any time soon either. The only people with influence really calling for something to be done are the property owners who are about to see values diminish. The big companies by and large can already see the advantage of having a much smaller property footprint for their office staff with people coming into the office on a rota system. The only reason the government ever sticks their oar in on this one is because Johnston wants to declare the war against covid won, and normality regained, and to shut the even dimmer members of the commentariat in the press up. Not sure about that. The Tory press is mostly against working from home and it’s not popular in the red wall either. There would be a lot of people happy if the Tories made working from home more difficult. |
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Post by NeilVHughes on Oct 5, 2021 10:50:31 GMT
Red Wall maybe, it would be the final nail in the Blue Wall in the Home Counties already drifting to the Lib Dems where more seats are at risk that they won in the North.
Traditional Tory voters in the south are more likely to be working from home and will not take lightly being frog marched into the office.
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Post by hairspray57 on Oct 5, 2021 10:52:37 GMT
Red Wall maybe, it would be the final nail in the Blue Wall in the Home Counties already drifting to the Lib Dems where more seats are at risk that they won in the North. Traditional Tory voters in the south are more likely to be working from home and will not take lightly being frog marched into the office. Through even then it only be mostly younger voters. Older people in those areas are often strongly anti working from home. |
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Post by talkingheads on Oct 5, 2021 11:17:46 GMT
Different jobs are ... different. They have different requirements and offer different benefits. Complaining because some people can work from home and others can't is like complaining that some people can work outdoors and some can't, or some jobs involve travel and some don't, or some jobs require variable shifts and some don't. Some jobs come with a car, some come with health insurance, some come with low-cost mortgages, some come with share options, some come with discounts on company products. Others don't.
It's not even as if working from home is anything new. My mother worked from home in the late 1970s. Since the rise of the first portable computers and home computers around thirty years ago home working has been available to an increasing number of office workers. The only thing that has been holding it back is management inertia.
At one time centralised offices weren't a thing. Then they became a thing. Now they're on their way to becoming not a thing again. The idea of people commuting to central locations happened because the needs of business moved ahead of the technology available. Now technology has caught up. We don't need the imposition of the old way of doing things any more.
Don't need people in the office and they can be based anywhere companies will soon realise they can move those jobs east to cheaper workforces. What I always say to that argument is that if it really was significantly cheaper, they would have done it long ago. If anything, working from home should require a pay rise - you are using your own resources, electricity etc. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 5, 2021 11:22:40 GMT
Different jobs are ... different. They have different requirements and offer different benefits. Complaining because some people can work from home and others can't is like complaining that some people can work outdoors and some can't, or some jobs involve travel and some don't, or some jobs require variable shifts and some don't. Some jobs come with a car, some come with health insurance, some come with low-cost mortgages, some come with share options, some come with discounts on company products. Others don't.
It's not even as if working from home is anything new. My mother worked from home in the late 1970s. Since the rise of the first portable computers and home computers around thirty years ago home working has been available to an increasing number of office workers. The only thing that has been holding it back is management inertia.
At one time centralised offices weren't a thing. Then they became a thing. Now they're on their way to becoming not a thing again. The idea of people commuting to central locations happened because the needs of business moved ahead of the technology available. Now technology has caught up. We don't need the imposition of the old way of doing things any more.
Don't need people in the office and they can be based anywhere companies will soon realise they can move those jobs east to cheaper workforces. That's how it was in the 1990s but it doesn't work that way any more because employees have a choice too. I work for a company that employs people from around the world and my colleagues from eastern Europe, India, the Philippines and so on expect to be paid as much as people in the United States, and they are. They know what they're worth and they're not going to work for a company that treats them as if they're too stupid to figure out the value of what they're doing. The low cost of living where they are means they benefit from a better quality of life. It doesn't mean they're willing to work for less money.
When there were only a few opportunities for remote work people in countries like India had to take what they could get and as long as they were paid more than local jobs offered they were happy. Now they're in a position to look around for better-paying jobs and they don't have to settle for the only western company in town.
The main area that will really suffer is manufacturing, because it can be done anywhere but can't be done remotely.
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Post by theglenbucklaird on Oct 5, 2021 12:02:00 GMT
Don't need people in the office and they can be based anywhere companies will soon realise they can move those jobs east to cheaper workforces. That's how it was in the 1990s but it doesn't work that way any more because employees have a choice too. I work for a company that employs people from around the world and my colleagues from eastern Europe, India, the Philippines and so on expect to be paid as much as people in the United States, and they are. They know what they're worth and they're not going to work for a company that treats them as if they're too stupid to figure out the value of what they're doing. The low cost of living where they are means they benefit from a better quality of life. It doesn't mean they're willing to work for less money.
When there were only a few opportunities for remote work people in countries like India had to take what they could get and as long as they were paid more than local jobs offered they were happy. Now they're in a position to look around for better-paying jobs and they don't have to settle for the only western company in town.
The main area that will really suffer is manufacturing, because it can be done anywhere but can't be done remotely.
Better not tell that to my colleagues in Czechia, Romania and India. Gap has narrowed in twenty five years but still cheaper labour sources for us |
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Post by theglenbucklaird on Oct 5, 2021 12:04:43 GMT
Don't need people in the office and they can be based anywhere companies will soon realise they can move those jobs east to cheaper workforces. What I always say to that argument is that if it really was significantly cheaper, they would have done it long ago. If anything, working from home should require a pay rise - you are using your own resources, electricity etc. I work for a charity so for us offsetting travel against use of home resources. Works better for some people but that is the deal and most people ok with this |
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Post by mistressjojo on Oct 6, 2021 7:04:15 GMT
What I always say to that argument is that if it really was significantly cheaper, they would have done it long ago. If anything, working from home should require a pay rise - you are using your own resources, electricity etc.I work for a charity so for us offsetting travel against use of home resources. Works better for some people but that is the deal and most people ok with this In Australia, we can claim WFH expenses on our tax. Works out better for people with dedicated home offices, but you can still claim even if you are just working at your kitchen table. On a side note, we have just passed our vaccination target so Sydney comes out of lockdown on Monday! |
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Post by fluxcapacitor on Oct 6, 2021 7:36:21 GMT
It really irks me that the Government (and more specifically the Prime Minister) feel a need to "encourage" people back into the office and speak out about the need for people to get back to the office. It's a slap in the face to anyone who has worked just as hard - if not harder - over the last two years from their dining room table. Having a central push from a government as if one size fits all is just - IMO - unnecessary. Let businesses make their own decisions based on productivity over the last few years. Let them ask their workforce, their managers, their clients.
The tricky thing is, of course, that ultimately the decision on how much working from home is acceptable is ultimately made by higher paid, older population in management roles who probably drive into work, don't feel the loss from the extra costs of commuting, and don't have anyone to answer to if they're a little late one day or want a bit of flexibility in their hours due to their status. If the government throw it out as the "right" thing to do, they may not feel the need to reach out or try to understand the viewpoint of the more junior workforce on smaller wages who have to cram onto a tube for an hour and might really feel the benefits of not spending so much on commuting, or getting some extra time to themselves after logging off at 6pm. That's generalised, sure, but there's certainly a split in opinion somewhere in middle management where I work.
Having said that, I suspect (and hope) hybrid working is here to stay. But the government's black and white approach to it - blindly ignoring any positives from WFH - certainly isn't helping businesses discuss or find a happy medium.
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Post by hairspray57 on Oct 6, 2021 9:01:33 GMT
It really irks me that the Government (and more specifically the Prime Minister) feel a need to "encourage" people back into the office and speak out about the need for people to get back to the office. It's a slap in the face to anyone who has worked just as hard - if not harder - over the last two years from their dining room table. Having a central push from a government as if one size fits all is just - IMO - unnecessary. Let businesses make their own decisions based on productivity over the last few years. Let them ask their workforce, their managers, their clients. The tricky thing is, of course, that ultimately the decision on how much working from home is acceptable is ultimately made by higher paid, older population in management roles who probably drive into work, don't feel the loss from the extra costs of commuting, and don't have anyone to answer to if they're a little late one day or want a bit of flexibility in their hours due to their status. If the government throw it out as the "right" thing to do, they may not feel the need to reach out or try to understand the viewpoint of the more junior workforce on smaller wages who have to cram onto a tube for an hour and might really feel the benefits of not spending so much on commuting, or getting some extra time to themselves after logging off at 6pm. That's generalised, sure, but there's certainly a split in opinion somewhere in middle management where I work. Having said that, I suspect (and hope) hybrid working is here to stay. But the government's black and white approach to it - blindly ignoring any positives from WFH - certainly isn't helping businesses discuss or find a happy medium. The Goverment don’t really have a choice. If they don’t encourage working in an office they would face the possibility of a ton of criticism from a lot of their voters and press supporters who are hardline anti working from home. The country is probably divided 50/50 on this issue. |
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Post by vdcni on Oct 6, 2021 9:03:39 GMT
At my place the top level are split - the guy that runs the finance team insists they are in all the time - while middle management are mostly keen to work from home as they have the longer commute, living further out of London.
The more junior team members skew towards coming in a bit more as they miss the social side and if they live in shared flats; don't have much space at home. They don't want to go back to five days a week though.
Some of the governments language though is terrible, they whole get back to work; as if people hadn't been working at home. Snide references to Peleton's and woke-ing from home are just meaningless insults. How many civil servants can actually afford a Peleton and what's woke about working from home anyway.
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Post by vdcni on Oct 6, 2021 9:06:26 GMT
It really irks me that the Government (and more specifically the Prime Minister) feel a need to "encourage" people back into the office and speak out about the need for people to get back to the office. It's a slap in the face to anyone who has worked just as hard - if not harder - over the last two years from their dining room table. Having a central push from a government as if one size fits all is just - IMO - unnecessary. Let businesses make their own decisions based on productivity over the last few years. Let them ask their workforce, their managers, their clients. The tricky thing is, of course, that ultimately the decision on how much working from home is acceptable is ultimately made by higher paid, older population in management roles who probably drive into work, don't feel the loss from the extra costs of commuting, and don't have anyone to answer to if they're a little late one day or want a bit of flexibility in their hours due to their status. If the government throw it out as the "right" thing to do, they may not feel the need to reach out or try to understand the viewpoint of the more junior workforce on smaller wages who have to cram onto a tube for an hour and might really feel the benefits of not spending so much on commuting, or getting some extra time to themselves after logging off at 6pm. That's generalised, sure, but there's certainly a split in opinion somewhere in middle management where I work. Having said that, I suspect (and hope) hybrid working is here to stay. But the government's black and white approach to it - blindly ignoring any positives from WFH - certainly isn't helping businesses discuss or find a happy medium. The Goverment don’t really have a choice. If they don’t encourage working in an office they would face the possibility of a ton of criticism from a lot of their voters and press supporters who are hardline anti working from home. The country is probably divided 50/50 on this issue. The press maybe but the voters? I haven't seen any suggestion that even for people who don't like working from home it's a major or widespread issue. If they are trying to appease anyone it will be commercial landlords. |
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Post by londonpostie on Oct 6, 2021 9:34:57 GMT
I do find there's quite a lot to be said for working from a robust, red trolley  |
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Post by hairspray57 on Oct 6, 2021 9:56:36 GMT
The Goverment don’t really have a choice. If they don’t encourage working in an office they would face the possibility of a ton of criticism from a lot of their voters and press supporters who are hardline anti working from home. The country is probably divided 50/50 on this issue. The press maybe but the voters? I haven't seen any suggestion that even for people who don't like working from home it's a major or widespread issue. If they are trying to appease anyone it will be commercial landlords. I have. Taxi drivers outside of London tell me that I should tell my fellow Londoners to get of their backsides and get back to work. It’s a pretty common feeling that working from home is just not as good as being in an office. |
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Post by vdcni on Oct 6, 2021 10:18:43 GMT
The press maybe but the voters? I haven't seen any suggestion that even for people who don't like working from home it's a major or widespread issue. If they are trying to appease anyone it will be commercial landlords. I have. Taxi drivers outside of London tell me that I should tell my fellow Londoners to get of their backsides and get back to work. It’s a pretty common feeling that working from home is just not as good as being in an office. So limited anecdotal evidence then. Nothing more than that. |
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Post by fluxcapacitor on Oct 6, 2021 10:21:48 GMT
The press maybe but the voters? I haven't seen any suggestion that even for people who don't like working from home it's a major or widespread issue. If they are trying to appease anyone it will be commercial landlords. I have. Taxi drivers outside of London tell me that I should tell my fellow Londoners to get of their backsides and get back to work. It’s a pretty common feeling that working from home is just not as good as being in an office. With all due respect I wouldn't say the views of taxi drivers on this issue prove it's a common feeling. Of course taxi drivers would say it's better for people to get back to the office. They don't have a choice in their line of work so haven't experienced any benefits from home working, and probably stand to make more business if people are back on the commute so there's a vested interest. The office workers it directly affects are quite split on the issue, but in my experience even the most ardent supporters of getting back to the office see some benefit to hybrid working and there's definitely a skew towards keeping it in some form - or at least taking time to reintroduce the office and the commute whilst not rushing back into fully crowded offices and throwing away any benefits of working from home. As vdcni says though, the Government's language is probably what's all wrong. It's probably creating more of a divide in the population than there would be if it was being approached in a more understanding way. "Get back to work" is not a helpful phrase for anyone right now. It implies to those who have been working from home throughout the pandemic (often whilst also trying to juggle educating children etc) that their efforts aren't being recognised, and it gives the impression to those who were working as normal (such as taxi drivers) that the rest of the population have been slacking off. As always, the Prime Minister isn't thinking how his language around these things affects the general population's views and opinions, and as a result it's causing more conflict about the subject than is really warranted. They should just stay neutral. Recognise that there have been benefits to home working in many situations, whilst obviously there have been difficulties and negative aspects to not being in a collaborative office space. Then let businesses decide what works best for them individually. |
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Post by londonpostie on Oct 6, 2021 10:37:29 GMT
From a different pov, I really don't like the idea of the population being ever more siloed in their daily lives. Things are bad enough now - and you see hints of that on here - but to think there would be less interaction between people with even slightly different lives is worrisome. You can imagine limited interactions becoming meaningful - lives spent nodding at men who mow the lawn at the same time on the same day of the week and women who go to meet the kids from school, where no one leaves their commuter town, barely has reason to leave their street.
I see dog walkers now meeting in the park, standing in a loose circle; just people who happen to walk at the same time each day. They wear the same class signifiers, the biggest difference between them is their pets. Got to get home now because they're expecting a Waitrose delivery. Siloed.
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Post by hairspray57 on Oct 6, 2021 11:03:04 GMT
From a different pov, I really don't like the idea of the population being ever more siloed in their daily lives. Things are bad enough now - and you see hints of that on here - but to think there would be less interaction between people with even slightly different lives is worrisome. You can imagine limited interactions becoming meaningful - lives spent nodding at men who mow the lawn at the same time on the same day of the week and women who go to meet the kids from school, where no one leaves their commuter town, barely has reason to leave their street.
I see dog walkers now meeting in the park, standing in a loose circle; just people who happen to walk at the same time each day. They wear the same class signifiers, the biggest difference between them is their pets. Got to get home now because they're expecting a Waitrose delivery. Siloed.
Very true. A lot of people are going to end up having to work from home because it’s expected in their industry when it will only make them lonely and isolated. |
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Post by vdcni on Oct 6, 2021 11:18:57 GMT
Most companies seem to be operating a hybrid approach and therefore most people can choose what works best for them. The early days in the pandemic when it was suggested offices would close and we wouldn't go back at all hasn't come to pass.
And most companies are emphasizing collaboration when people are in the office. There's no point just going in to just sit at your desk and not talk to anyone when you can do that at home. The office is now more for face to face meetings, work that is done best in teams, having lunch together etc.
Also what interactions outside of the office do you imagine commuters were having. In most companies people barely ever spoke to anyone that was outside their department, let alone anyone else.
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Post by hairspray57 on Oct 6, 2021 11:26:01 GMT
Most companies seem to be operating a hybrid approach and therefore most people can choose what works best for them. The early days in the pandemic when it was suggested offices would close and we wouldn't go back at all hasn't come to pass. And most companies are emphasizing collaboration when people are in the office. There's no point just going in to just sit at your desk and not talk to anyone when you can do that at home. The office is now more for face to face meetings, work that is done best in teams, having lunch together etc. Also what interactions outside of the office do you imagine commuters were having. In most companies people barely ever spoke to anyone that was outside their department, let alone anyone else. It was the interaction in work and also when working out of the house it’s easier to then socialise after work with colleagues than if you been at home all day. It’s all right for those who have other people to socialise with but a lot of people work is the only place they have managed to do so. |
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Post by vdcni on Oct 6, 2021 11:43:46 GMT
Most companies seem to be operating a hybrid approach and therefore most people can choose what works best for them. The early days in the pandemic when it was suggested offices would close and we wouldn't go back at all hasn't come to pass. And most companies are emphasizing collaboration when people are in the office. There's no point just going in to just sit at your desk and not talk to anyone when you can do that at home. The office is now more for face to face meetings, work that is done best in teams, having lunch together etc. Also what interactions outside of the office do you imagine commuters were having. In most companies people barely ever spoke to anyone that was outside their department, let alone anyone else. It was the interaction in work and also when working out of the house it’s easier to then socialise after work with colleagues than if you been at home all day. It’s all right for those who have other people to socialise with but a lot of people work is the only place they have managed to do so. I've only been going back since the beginning of September once or twice a week max and so far have managed a team lunch, a department bowling night, two lunchtime trips to the pub with colleagues, a company pride event and a Bake Off Competition. That doesn't even count the charity volunteering day. And that's from a company that I never classed as particularly social pre-pandemic, a good 40-50% of people probably only ever went to the Christmas Party as their one social of the year. There's also regular team catch ups on Zoom still happening. Yes not every company will do the same but then they might find people respond by finding somewhere that does. It's not hard to still be social in a hybrid environment, it just becomes a bit less spontaneous. |
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Post by hairspray57 on Oct 6, 2021 12:02:00 GMT
It was the interaction in work and also when working out of the house it’s easier to then socialise after work with colleagues than if you been at home all day. It’s all right for those who have other people to socialise with but a lot of people work is the only place they have managed to do so. I've only been going back since the beginning of September once or twice a week max and so far have managed a team lunch, a department bowling night, two lunchtime trips to the pub with colleagues, a company pride event and a Bake Off Competition. That doesn't even count the charity volunteering day. And that's from a company that I never classed as particularly social pre-pandemic, a good 40-50% of people probably only ever went to the Christmas Party as their one social of the year. There's also regular team catch ups on Zoom still happening. Yes not every company will do the same but then they might find people respond by finding somewhere that does. It's not hard to still be social in a hybrid environment, it just becomes a bit less spontaneous. I’m not talking about Hybrid working but those who will work fully or near fully from home. |
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