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Post by zahidf on Mar 10, 2020 6:33:07 GMT
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Post by Jan on Mar 10, 2020 6:51:19 GMT
Oh dear, what a minefield identity politics is, I wonder if Michael Longhurst will issue an apology. Better to have just programmed Top Hat then everyone would have been happy, including those who don't bother going to the Donmar any more. Just out of interest, which trans actor is being recommended for the role ? Its not really difficult. If it's a trans role, it should be a trans actor playing it. In the same way, a white actor shouldn't play a Chinese role for a example, or an able bodied actor play someone with MS. I think the donmar have messed up. And if it's a man's role a woman shouldn't play it ? You either have gender-blind casting or you don't. Same on race - you're saying a Chinese actor shouldn't play a white role. I disagree - colour-blind casting should be exactly that. |
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Post by Jan on Mar 10, 2020 6:57:27 GMT
The majority of queer representation you’ll see, especially on the screen (though not excluding stage), will be played by cis straight performers; yet you’ll hardly ever see queer actors playing straight roles. The minority group hardly benefits. That's absolutely untrue. Over the years (and I mean 100) many of our leading stage actors have been gay and they've all played many straight roles. |
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Post by zahidf on Mar 10, 2020 7:18:21 GMT
Its not really difficult. If it's a trans role, it should be a trans actor playing it. In the same way, a white actor shouldn't play a Chinese role for a example, or an able bodied actor play someone with MS. I think the donmar have messed up. And if it's a man's role a woman shouldn't play it ? You either have gender-blind casting or you don't. Same on race - you're saying a Chinese actor shouldn't play a white role. I disagree - colour-blind casting should be exactly that. It depends on the role, but if it's for example othello or a trans role, then it should be casting to reflect that reality. Some roles the gender or race are explicitly linked to playing that particular role. It's the same as 'blacking up' otherwise. Its not like there aren't a million roles in musical theatre for a CIS man. |
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Post by justinj on Mar 10, 2020 9:12:46 GMT
Question related to colour blind casting.
Has Hermione specifically been written as black for the Harry Potter play? Or can they truly colour blind and cast a white woman in the role, just as they could also cast a black Harry Potter?
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Post by justinj on Mar 10, 2020 9:13:45 GMT
The latest David Copperfield film worked so well because they truly colour blind cast. They just cast the best actors for the roles and bloody good job they made of the film too.
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Post by firefingers on Mar 10, 2020 9:21:49 GMT
It's an interesting topic which I don't think has an easy answer. What are the defining characteristics that can't just be "pretended"? For example, we accept that a charecter who is a farmer doesn't have to actually have lived as a farmer. But the industry does now regard ethnicity when relevant to the story to be something that can't be simply acted (ie Othello has to be performed by a person of colour, even if opera did lag behind with blacking up until unsettling recently). I have worked on historical pieces where they were cast colourblind as race was not felt to be relevant to the story being told, but then actors felt that they might be giving a skewed view of a certain time period as it implied that they would have been treated the same regardless of race.
What characteristics do we add to that list? I suspect it has been until recently been all about "passing" physically, hence why a white actor can't play a black character but with say how musical theatre tells largely heteronormative stories but is known to employ a large number of gay men. Dustin Hoffman was awarded the oscar for his role as an autistic man. Could such a role be given today? I suspect there would be a backlash if it were to happen today, but it can't be denied that Hoffman's performance is fantastic and was recognised as such.
We also have the problem that theatre will still often just cast any non-white actor for a BAME roll. We still have very un-Egyptian Cleopatras or un-Moor like Othellos because they are from vaguely the right continent and aren't white. Should that be acceptable? A friend of mine has lost out on roles because he doesn't match what the casting director thinks they should look despite being actually of an ethnic background fitting the role.
Maybe being transsexual should be given the same level of reverence as ethnicity. If we feel like trans performers are being discriminated against and positive discrimination is the way to progress that then I'm all for it, as I have been before over getting more women and BAME people involved in the white and male dominated world of producing theatre. But having seen John Cameron Mitchell play Hedwig for example I think a hard and fast rule could well be a mistake.
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2,496 posts
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Post by zahidf on Mar 10, 2020 9:24:43 GMT
Question related to colour blind casting. Has Hermione specifically been written as black for the Harry Potter play? Or can they truly colour blind and cast a white woman in the role, just as they could also cast a black Harry Potter? That sort of thing is up to the producers: theres nothing making it a 'black role' in terms of how its written. |
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Post by zahidf on Mar 10, 2020 9:27:23 GMT
It's an interesting topic which I don't think has an easy answer. What are the defining characteristics that can't just be "pretended"? For example, we accept that a charecter who is a farmer doesn't have to actually have lived as a farmer. But the industry does now regard ethnicity when relevant to the story to be something that can't be simply acted (ie Othello has to be performed by a person of colour, even if opera did lag behind with blacking up until unsettling recently). I have worked on historical pieces where they were cast colourblind as race was not felt to be relevant to the story being told, but then actors felt that they might be giving a skewed view of a certain time period as it implied that they would have been treated the same regardless of race. What characteristics do we add to that list? I suspect it has been until recently been all about "passing" physically, hence why a white actor can't play a black character but with say how musical theatre tells largely heteronormative stories but is known to employ a large number of gay men. Dustin Hoffman was awarded the oscar for his role as an autistic man. Could such a role be given today? I suspect there would be a backlash if it were to happen today, but it can't be denied that Hoffman's performance is fantastic and was recognised as such. We also have the problem that theatre will still often just cast any non-white actor for a BAME roll. We still have very un-Egyptian Cleopatras or un-Moor like Othellos because they are from vaguely the right continent and aren't white. Should that be acceptable? A friend of mine has lost out on roles because he doesn't match what the casting director thinks they should look despite being actually of an ethnic background fitting the role. Maybe being transsexual should be given the same level of reverence as ethnicity. If we feel like trans performers are being discriminated against and positive discrimination is the way to progress that then I'm all for it, as I have been before over getting more women and BAME people involved in the white and male dominated world of producing theatre. But having seen John Cameron Mitchell play Hedwig for example I think a hard and fast rule could well be a mistake. I think they are getting better generally in the theatre for that sort of thing, and Donmar did well in their teenage dick casting. But I think the Pluto casting is a mistake. I think for trans characters like that and Hedwig now, you have to have a trans actor play it |
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Post by crowblack on Mar 10, 2020 9:34:05 GMT
Tovey and whishaw are out! Yes, I know, hence the full stop and new sentence! |
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Post by crowblack on Mar 10, 2020 10:10:18 GMT
I think they are getting better generally in the theatre for that sort of thing, and Donmar did well in their teenage dick casting. But I think the Pluto casting is a mistake. I think for trans characters like that and Hedwig now, you have to have a trans actor play it An actor will probably bring something extra to the role if they have "lived experience". Who would have better "lived experience" for this role, about a young person growing up sexually non-conforming in Troubles-era Northern Ireland, in an adaptation of a novel whose NI and Troubles setting is crucial, and something utterly alien to most English people today? A young man who grew up gay in Northern Ireland at the tail end of the Troubles, or a young person who grew up trans-identifying in rich, broad-minded and non-sectarian London? |
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Post by zahidf on Mar 10, 2020 10:27:14 GMT
I think they are getting better generally in the theatre for that sort of thing, and Donmar did well in their teenage dick casting. But I think the Pluto casting is a mistake. I think for trans characters like that and Hedwig now, you have to have a trans actor play it An actor will probably bring something extra to the role if they have "lived experience". Who would have better "lived experience" for this role, about a young person growing up sexually non-conforming in Troubles-era Northern Ireland, in an adaptation of a novel whose NI and Troubles setting is crucial, and something utterly alien to most English people today? A young man who grew up gay in Northern Ireland at the tail end of the Troubles, or a young person who grew up trans-identifying in rich, broad-minded and non-sectarian London? I don't know the musical they are putting together. But if that's the story they want to do, an original musical about a gay man n NI would have been better then wouldn't it, rather than him playing a trans character? |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 10, 2020 10:59:11 GMT
What I find so sad is that growing up in the 90s and I to early 00s as a gay man I wanted acceptance and also to not be defined by my sexuality. Now we are going backwards with an obsession on labels and I'm once again being defined by who I choose to sleep with and everyone is being filtered into their different boxes.
Also, if the story is about a character who happens to be trans but is actually about other issues, then id say it matters less about being played by a trans actor. And surely that's a good thing that trans people are being normalised and it's not made the focus of thes story. Like when a character happens to be gay but that's not all there is to the character. Some of the best and most relatable gay characters for me have been performed by straight actors.
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Post by crowblack on Mar 10, 2020 11:10:29 GMT
I don't know the musical they are putting together. But if that's the story they want to do, an original musical about a gay man n NI would have been better then wouldn't it, rather than him playing a trans character? The novel itself was written by a heterosexual (I presume) male writer and has been around a long time. The character describes themselves in the film as a transvestite, is attracted sexually to men and wants to have a sex change. Using the term transgender is retrofitting with a term that I don't think was used then and is incredibly vague in its usage now - the 'trans umbrella' encompasses everyone from full surgical sex change people to drag queens, people born intersex, teenagers on Tumblr going through a phase, and fully male bodied, part-time male presenting people who are sexually attracted to women and like to be called by different pronouns on different days. When people say it should be played by a trans actor, what trans, how trans, at what stage of the journey? I saw Teddy Lamb tweeting about this on Twitter, but his type of trans isn't what this character's type of trans is. We are on constantly shifting ground here. |
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Post by zahidf on Mar 10, 2020 11:11:02 GMT
What I find so sad is that growing up in the 90s and I to early 00s as a gay man I wanted acceptance and also to not be defined by my sexuality. Now we are going backwards with an obsession on labels and I'm once again being defined by who I choose to sleep with and everyone is being filtered into their different boxes. Also, if the story is about a character who happens to be trans but is actually about other issues, then id say it matters less about being played by a trans actor. And surely that's a good thing that trans people are being normalised and it's not made the focus of thes story. Like when a character happens to be gay but that's not all there is to the character. Some of the best and most relatable gay characters for me have been performed by straight actors. From what I gather, the trans identity is a big part of the story
It depends on the role, but in the same way ( for example) as if its a role with being Chinese is important to the story, then a white person playing that role would be unacceptable.
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Post by oxfordsimon on Mar 10, 2020 11:42:23 GMT
I don't know the musical they are putting together. But if that's the story they want to do, an original musical about a gay man n NI would have been better then wouldn't it, rather than him playing a trans character? The novel itself was written by a heterosexual (I presume) male writer and has been around a long time. The character describes themselves in the film as a transvestite, is attracted sexually to men and wants to have a sex change. Using the term transgender is retrofitting with a term that I don't think was used then and is incredibly vague in its usage now - the 'trans umbrella' encompasses everyone from full surgical sex change people to drag queens, people born intersex, teenagers on Tumblr going through a phase, and fully male bodied, part-time male presenting people who are sexually attracted to women and like to be called by different pronouns on different days. When people say it should be played by a trans actor, what trans, how trans, at what stage of the journey? I saw Teddy Lamb tweeting about this on Twitter, but his type of trans isn't what this character's type of trans is. We are on constantly shifting ground here. And that ground is not moving consistently. There are different groups trying to (re)define/(re)claim language - and demanding compliance with their world view. Now respect is everything - and no-one should be disrespectful of the choices that others make. But it also wrong to throw around any -phobia allegations without good reason. What is acceptable to one is unacceptable to another - and they can often come from the same community - but they have different perspectives on what is ok and what is not. There is a new orthodoxy that is seeking to shut down debate and discussion around the subject of gender. This is also not helped by the fact that the concept of gender that has been adopted by the new orthodoxy is not one that is recognisable to the one that existed a matter of years ago. Now I am not saying that who anyone identifies is should be a matter of debate or discussion. That is their life and their choices should be respected. But I am finding it increasingly difficult to navigate this whole area - as, I am sure, are many others. Even with the best of intentions, you can easily get it wrong and incur the wrath of someone. I don't think I am in a place to comment directly on the Donmar casting decision. I don't know what casting process was undertaken. I don't know what discussions were held behind closed doors. I also don't know where Fra Fee places on the gender spectrum. I very much doubt, however, that it was done in order to antagonise or upset anyone. I suspect - but cannot know - that they cast who they felt best embodied the character and who could sing the music in the most appropriate way. I would hope that we could pause and examine the issues around gender before pushing forward in any one particular direction. Understanding what is going on and the long term implications of any changes would seem to me the right way to go. Build understanding and consensus (where it can be achieved) so that we can move forward with confidence and providing the right support to the right people at the right time. Respect is everything - but it does work both ways. |
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Post by theatreviewer126 on Mar 10, 2020 12:12:00 GMT
I’m not familiar with this specific show but surely it would be incredibly uncomfortable for a trans actor to have to play a trans character if that character appeared pre transition in the show. Wouldn’t that cause major dysphoria for the actor?
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Post by couldileaveyou on Mar 10, 2020 12:42:17 GMT
It depends, not all trans people undergo surgery
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Post by BurlyBeaR on Mar 10, 2020 12:43:28 GMT
The novel itself was written by a heterosexual (I presume) male writer and has been around a long time. The character describes themselves in the film as a transvestite, is attracted sexually to men and wants to have a sex change. Using the term transgender is retrofitting with a term that I don't think was used then and is incredibly vague in its usage now - the 'trans umbrella' encompasses everyone from full surgical sex change people to drag queens, people born intersex, teenagers on Tumblr going through a phase, and fully male bodied, part-time male presenting people who are sexually attracted to women and like to be called by different pronouns on different days. When people say it should be played by a trans actor, what trans, how trans, at what stage of the journey? I saw Teddy Lamb tweeting about this on Twitter, but his type of trans isn't what this character's type of trans is. We are on constantly shifting ground here. But I am finding it increasingly difficult to navigate this whole area - as, I am sure, are many others. Even with the best of intentions, you can easily get it wrong and incur the wrath of someone. I don't think I am in a place to comment directly on the Donmar casting decision. I don't know what casting process was undertaken. I don't know what discussions were held behind closed doors. I also don't know where Fra Fee places on the gender spectrum. I very much doubt, however, that it was done in order to antagonise or upset anyone. I suspect - but cannot know - that they cast who they felt best embodied the character and who could sing the music in the most appropriate way. And it’s none of our business really is it? Unless it’s suggested that everyone proclaims where they are on the gender spectrum and what surgery they’ve had or are contemplating before going in for an audition. Also, we’ve come on in leaps and bounds on trans issues in a very short space of time. On this very forum in 2016 there was a “Hedwig to Transfer” thread (I wonder what happened to that!) which ran to 7 pages and had various discussions about Neil Patrick Harris, Will Young and others but no-one, not one person suggested a trans actor should play the lead. Three short years later and it’s now being regarded as a fundamental requirement by many. That’s huge. There are a lot of people shouting “do better” on Twitter and little recognition of the fact that generally people ARE doing better and will continue to do better if they’re given the chance. |
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Post by crowblack on Mar 10, 2020 12:57:53 GMT
There are a lot of people shouting “do better” on Twitter and little recognition of the fact that generally people ARE doing better and will continue to do better if they’re given the chance. Rather than shouting 'must do better' on Twitter, maybe these people should spend their time coming up with work of their own, things that people might actually want to watch and enjoy? God knows, London has enough venues, everyone has a fantastic quality movie camera in their pocket and a viewing platform with global reach that costs nothing to put their work up on! I do wonder what the cultural legacy of Millennials is going to be: "well, we played a lot of games and watched a lot of youtube make up tutorials and unboxing videos and got a lot of stuff Cancelled". |
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Post by foxa on Mar 10, 2020 14:14:05 GMT
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Post by foxa on Mar 10, 2020 14:17:36 GMT
Or printed here below:
Statement from Landmark Productions, Galway International Arts Festival, the Birmingham Repertory Theatre and the Donmar Warehouse
The Breakfast on Pluto creative team conducted a wide search for the lead. In addition to holding auditions in London, we reached out to the Irish transgender community through multiple channels, and auditioned a number of performers who identified as transgender for the role of Patrick/Pussy Braden.
We acknowledge that we all need to do more to support the trans community and the development of trans artists and we are looking to amplify and celebrate trans voices in other ways as part of the production.
We have been keen to ensure that trans voices have been central to the development of this new musical. A key member of the core creative team is trans, and a leading trans actor, Rebecca Root, has been production consultant since last year; her brief includes advising on script as well as the casting process. A young trans theatre-maker has been offered a placement as assistant director, and we have commissioned Lloyd (Meadhbh) Houston to curate a wraparound programme for the performances in Galway and in Dublin.
Alongside Breakfast on Pluto, an actor showcase for trans performers in collaboration with Gendered Intelligence will be held at the Donmar Warehouse. We understand how many barriers there are to trans performers in this industry. We hope the showcase will provide an opportunity for directors and casting directors and trans performers to network, and to further diversify the sector.
The Donmar is sharing its space with Gendered Intelligence for a platform performance presenting the culmination of a research project in summer 2020, Adventures in Time & Gender, and it is working with them on further opportunities for support, of which more details will be known closer to the time of the production.
In addition to the above, Birmingham Repertory Theatre is currently in conversation with Midlands-based trans organisations with the aim of building on the work we’ve presented in the past and collaborating on future artistic programming. More details will be announced closer to the time of production.
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Post by oxfordsimon on Mar 10, 2020 14:33:40 GMT
Thanks foxa.
That looks like they are articulating a very reasonable and considerate approach.
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Post by zahidf on Mar 10, 2020 14:41:08 GMT
Or printed here below: Statement from Landmark Productions, Galway International Arts Festival, the Birmingham Repertory Theatre and the Donmar Warehouse The Breakfast on Pluto creative team conducted a wide search for the lead. In addition to holding auditions in London, we reached out to the Irish transgender community through multiple channels, and auditioned a number of performers who identified as transgender for the role of Patrick/Pussy Braden. We acknowledge that we all need to do more to support the trans community and the development of trans artists and we are looking to amplify and celebrate trans voices in other ways as part of the production. We have been keen to ensure that trans voices have been central to the development of this new musical. A key member of the core creative team is trans, and a leading trans actor, Rebecca Root, has been production consultant since last year; her brief includes advising on script as well as the casting process. A young trans theatre-maker has been offered a placement as assistant director, and we have commissioned Lloyd (Meadhbh) Houston to curate a wraparound programme for the performances in Galway and in Dublin. Alongside Breakfast on Pluto, an actor showcase for trans performers in collaboration with Gendered Intelligence will be held at the Donmar Warehouse. We understand how many barriers there are to trans performers in this industry. We hope the showcase will provide an opportunity for directors and casting directors and trans performers to network, and to further diversify the sector. The Donmar is sharing its space with Gendered Intelligence for a platform performance presenting the culmination of a research project in summer 2020, Adventures in Time & Gender, and it is working with them on further opportunities for support, of which more details will be known closer to the time of the production. In addition to the above, Birmingham Repertory Theatre is currently in conversation with Midlands-based trans organisations with the aim of building on the work we’ve presented in the past and collaborating on future artistic programming. More details will be announced closer to the time of production. A full response, which seems reasonable. lets see how the showcase stuff pans out though with Gendered Intelligence. |
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Post by kathryn on Mar 10, 2020 14:51:55 GMT
I think the main issue with the idea that ‘everyone should be able to play anything’ line of thinking is that it is never used to help gay actors play straight roles, or asian people playing asian roles, or as in this, case trans people playing trans roles. The people who always benefit from that line of thinking is predominately the straight/cis people. It rarely extends the courtesy the other way. The majority of queer representation you’ll see, especially on the screen (though not excluding stage), will be played by cis straight performers; yet you’ll hardly ever see queer actors playing straight roles. The minority group hardly benefits. You'll hardly ever see OUT queer actors playing straight roles, which is not quite the same thing as queer actors not being cast in those roles. The closet is a thing. Though it's a funny thing, these days - there are definitely actors who are quietly LBG, but probably wouldn't describe themselves as 'in the closet'. They just decline to discuss their private life in the press, because it's private. 'Coming out' was very often a political move (look at Ian Mckellen!) and many actors nowadays don't want to attract that attention to their private life unless and until they have a good personal reason. Look at Ben Whishaw - the first many people knew he was gay was when he announced his civil partnership. Some still don't - he's just not a big enough celebrity for his private life to be of interest. Can we talk for a minute about your last sentence, though? The thing about being a minority is that there's fewer of you than the majority. That's what it means. Even in a perfect-world, all-things-being-equal situation you'd see the majority of roles going to cis straight performers, because they are the majority of actors, because they are the majority of the population. Only around 5% of the population identifies as LGBT. That's been pretty consistent over the past few decades - it appears that LGBT people are 'born that way', so it's unlikely they will ever be the majority. |
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