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Post by johartuk on Apr 26, 2020 11:12:00 GMT
After watching it on youtube, I've come to the conclusion that, whilst there are a few musical highlights* and the staging is really good, the book is like a bad piece of fan fiction. None of the returning characters bare any resemblence to their POTO incarnations. Christine has forgotten that the Phantom killed two people and stalked her (in fact, she apparently forgot that pretty quickly judging by the events described in 'Under A Moonless Sky'!). Raoul is a total git (except we don't see much evidence of that - even when he's drunk in the bar there's no real evidence of nastiness, just a man who realises his faults and asks "Why does she still love me?"). The Phantom is suddenly a Sex God, desired by two women (both of whom are aware of his stalkerish and homicidal tendencies). *I can't take 'Under A Moonless Sky' seriously since I saw a video which pointed out that the lyrics of the song were a badly written description of a sexual encounter!  As for 'Love Never Dies' - I don't think the song works in a higher key. Christine sounded screechy on the higher notes, and the song didn't really feel like the 'big moment' song. |
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Post by westendboy on Apr 26, 2020 12:02:19 GMT
the book is like a bad piece of fan fiction. That's pretty much the story summed up. |
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Post by danb on Apr 26, 2020 12:25:25 GMT
I much preferred this Christines voice to Sierra Bogies’. Much less piercing and my wine glass didn’t shatter, however the Phantom didn’t quite match up to Ramin Karimloo for me. I just think that the score is quite glorious. Yes it is repetitive, but those great big ‘smash you in the face’ sweeping melodies more than make up for the terrible story. There are lots of real ‘songs’ in there too which is why I was surprised that people didn’t take to it.
Edit: Mrs B sat visibly wincing through most of the running time, and when I told her it was ‘Cats’ next she said that it would be my turn to do the same next week. Send help.
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Post by longinthetooth on Apr 26, 2020 13:41:19 GMT
I too watched this on Friday. I hadn't seen this version before - I enjoyed it, but wouldn't say I loved it. I absolutely do love the music, though, and saw the show several times in the West End, both original and 'amended' versions.
I don't have a problem with the character assassination of Raoul - I never liked him in Phantom anyway. Don't forget he was willing to sacrifice Christine to the wolves in order to trap the Phantom, despite her initial unwillingness to participate. So much for being in love with her.
Despite him being a mass murderer, I think most people have a bit of a 'thing' for the Phantom (especially if played by Ramin!). Also, the story has moved on ten years, so people and circumstances will have changed. I'm not mad on the Coney Island setting, but hey, why not? It's as good as anywhere else!
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Post by andromedadench on Apr 26, 2020 13:47:28 GMT
*I can't take 'Under A Moonless Sky' seriously since I saw a video which pointed out that the lyrics of the song were a badly written description of a sexual encounter! As for 'Love Never Dies' - I don't think the song works in a higher key. Christine sounded screechy on the higher notes, and the song didn't really feel like the 'big moment' song. Under A Moonless Sky is so catchy, I can't stop listening to it even though I do wish I couldn't hear the lyrics, they're really 'Springtime for Hitler' bad  I especially lose it at '..I was no longer SHY' |
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Post by duncan on Apr 26, 2020 19:54:01 GMT
As I've said many a time its a wonderful score let down by everything else - as one of the (un)fortunate who saw the original London production I was glad to see they have finally sorted out the beginning of the show, removing the Madame Giry prologue where the ending was spelt out in LARGE LETTERS was a bonus but I still hate the ending even though I think from being shot to dying has been tightened up timewise, dear goodness it seemed to take about 10 minutes in London. It looked and flowed better than London although I did miss the mechanical horse that picked them up from the boat, the carriage contraption just didn't cut it for me. |
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Post by Scswp on Apr 27, 2020 7:23:23 GMT
After watching it on youtube, I've come to the conclusion that, whilst there are a few musical highlights* and the staging is really good, the book is like a bad piece of fan fiction. None of the returning characters bare any resemblence to their POTO incarnations. Christine has forgotten that the Phantom killed two people and stalked her (in fact, she apparently forgot that pretty quickly judging by the events described in 'Under A Moonless Sky'!). Raoul is a total git (except we don't see much evidence of that - even when he's drunk in the bar there's no real evidence of nastiness, just a man who realises his faults and asks "Why does she still love me?"). The Phantom is suddenly a Sex God, desired by two women (both of whom are aware of his stalkerish and homicidal tendencies). *I can't take 'Under A Moonless Sky' seriously since I saw a video which pointed out that the lyrics of the song were a badly written description of a sexual encounter! As for 'Love Never Dies' - I don't think the song works in a higher key. Christine sounded screechy on the higher notes, and the song didn't really feel like the 'big moment' song. I agree about the ‘Love Never Dies’ moment - it felt very anti-climactic! I remember feeling the same way when I saw Sierra singing it in London. The number is problematic for many reasons. I think the fact that it’s a song we’ve heard before is the first part of the problem (as well as the song itself!) I agree that the song does not work as well in a higher key. When you hear Hannah Waddingham sing it in ‘The Beautiful Game’ as a ‘build and belt number’, it has much greater impact as a theatrical moment. Maybe I feel let down by the LND version because I heard Waddingham’s version first and so I’m used to hearing it this way. The lyrics, at times, are astonishingly bad, especially considering it is the ‘big moment’ to which the whole plot has been building. There are some good moments in it (e.g. I quite like ‘it infiltrates your soul , it takes you by surprise, then seizes for control’), but lyrics like ‘Love will continue’ and ‘Love never dies once it is in you’ are laughably awful. How on earth did nobody insist on a rewrite? Sadly, the song (just like the whole show generally and, in particular, at the very end) just ‘fizzles out’ at the end. Maybe a bigger ending to the song (a ‘money note’, as it were) may have saved it, but the whole moment does not at all ‘bring the house down’ as the production team may have anticipated. Visually, the production looked stunning (better than in London) and there are some fantastic songs and passages of music (the Coney Island songs remind me somewhat of the ‘vaudeville-style’ songs in Gypsy), but on the whole, it doesn’t all coalesce into an engaging experience for me. |
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Post by horton on Apr 27, 2020 8:08:03 GMT
How desperate are we that a show can be considered good DESPITE it's story?
I feel sorry for all those mugs who worked hard to make score, book and lyrics as incredible as possible for other shows, when apparently there's no need.
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Post by viserys on Apr 27, 2020 8:32:05 GMT
I think the fact that it’s a song we’ve heard before is the first part of the problem (as well as the song itself!) I agree that the song does not work as well in a higher key. When you hear Hannah Waddingham sing it in ‘The Beautiful Game’ as a ‘build and belt number’, it has much greater impact as a theatrical moment. Maybe I feel let down by the LND version because I heard Waddingham’s version first and so I’m used to hearing it this way. But wasn't that song aimed for "Phantom II" even BEFORE it became a song for The Beautiful Game? I seem to remember that once upon a time it was sung by Kiri te Kanawa (thus as operatic as it gets) and was called "The heart is slow to learn"? Then it became "Our kind of love" in TBG and finally "Love never dies". That said, I prefer Hannah Waddingham's version, too, although I also always felt that the song itself was a bit too... let's say opulent, for a rather small show set among teenagers during the Troubles. Maybe it's just one of these theatrical songs that work well as standalone songs but don't really fit into a show. Otherwise I echo the sentiments here - it's a good score overall with many beautiful moments, a gorgeous setting in Coney Island... badly let down by the abysmal story. How I wish all that creative energy had gone into a new story or some other book/movie adaptation, it could have been a fabulous show. |
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Post by danb on Apr 27, 2020 9:19:27 GMT
Is the bulk of the story from the Frederick Forsyth book?
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Post by poster J on Apr 27, 2020 9:22:13 GMT
I think the fact that it’s a song we’ve heard before is the first part of the problem (as well as the song itself!) I agree that the song does not work as well in a higher key. When you hear Hannah Waddingham sing it in ‘The Beautiful Game’ as a ‘build and belt number’, it has much greater impact as a theatrical moment. Maybe I feel let down by the LND version because I heard Waddingham’s version first and so I’m used to hearing it this way. But wasn't that song aimed for "Phantom II" even BEFORE it became a song for The Beautiful Game? I seem to remember that once upon a time it was sung by Kiri te Kanawa (thus as operatic as it gets) and was called "The heart is slow to learn"? Then it became "Our kind of love" in TBG and finally "Love never dies". That said, I prefer Hannah Waddingham's version, too, although I also always felt that the song itself was a bit too... let's say opulent, for a rather small show set among teenagers during the Troubles. Maybe it's just one of these theatrical songs that work well as standalone songs but don't really fit into a show. Otherwise I echo the sentiments here - it's a good score overall with many beautiful moments, a gorgeous setting in Coney Island... badly let down by the abysmal story. How I wish all that creative energy had gone into a new story or some other book/movie adaptation, it could have been a fabulous show. Whether it was intended for Phantom II or not, it was used in The Beautiful Game first and that is where it should have stayed. I think it works quite well in that show, as someone who knows people who lived through that era and setting. Re-using it is just a bit lazy. I have to admit I've never watched LND as I hate the idea of the story so much. Nothing in this thread is persuading me to change my mind so far! |
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Post by duncan on Apr 27, 2020 10:09:00 GMT
How desperate are we that a show can be considered good DESPITE it's story? I feel sorry for all those mugs who worked hard to make score, book and lyrics as incredible as possible for other shows, when apparently there's no need. You alright? |
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Post by MrBraithwaite on Apr 27, 2020 11:58:27 GMT
How desperate are we that a show can be considered good DESPITE it's story? I feel sorry for all those mugs who worked hard to make score, book and lyrics as incredible as possible for other shows, when apparently there's no need. I guess all the shows you love are perfect from beginning to end. |
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Post by stepha on Apr 27, 2020 15:24:12 GMT
Parts of the score and the staging for this were just gorgeous, I really loved those elements - but the story is just unforgivable!!
I always felt that if the story had been tweaked (OK, re-written) to have the Phantom simply manipulate Raoul into believing he and Christine had shared a night and that Gustave was the result, you'd have a believable story. Christine would still sing LND for the sake of Gustave, Raoul (and the Giry's) would still believe she'd chosen the Phantom, Phantom would still be dark and terrifying, Meg still goes a bit mad - ta-dah, story sorted...
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Post by digipal on Apr 27, 2020 17:23:38 GMT
I think the fact that it’s a song we’ve heard before is the first part of the problem (as well as the song itself!) I agree that the song does not work as well in a higher key. When you hear Hannah Waddingham sing it in ‘The Beautiful Game’ as a ‘build and belt number’, it has much greater impact as a theatrical moment. Maybe I feel let down by the LND version because I heard Waddingham’s version first and so I’m used to hearing it this way. But wasn't that song aimed for "Phantom II" even BEFORE it became a song for The Beautiful Game? I seem to remember that once upon a time it was sung by Kiri te Kanawa (thus as operatic as it gets) and was called "The heart is slow to learn"? Then it became "Our kind of love" in TBG and finally "Love never dies". That said, I prefer Hannah Waddingham's version, too, although I also always felt that the song itself was a bit too... let's say opulent, for a rather small show set among teenagers during the Troubles. Maybe it's just one of these theatrical songs that work well as standalone songs but don't really fit into a show. Otherwise I echo the sentiments here - it's a good score overall with many beautiful moments, a gorgeous setting in Coney Island... badly let down by the abysmal story. How I wish all that creative energy had gone into a new story or some other book/movie adaptation, it could have been a fabulous show. Yes, Dame Kiri sang it at his 50th birthday concert in 1998. I think its the next ALW show being streamed? |
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Post by horton on Apr 27, 2020 17:25:20 GMT
How desperate are we that a show can be considered good DESPITE it's story? I feel sorry for all those mugs who worked hard to make score, book and lyrics as incredible as possible for other shows, when apparently there's no need. I guess all the shows you love are perfect from beginning to end. I can't say I am fond of any where you have to turn a blind eye to THE STORY! And even worse, people have to especially hold their nose to the ending. And yet it's still "nice". |
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Post by danb on Apr 27, 2020 18:30:40 GMT
Over the last twenty years or so there has been an increase in “great cast recording/ropey show” shows (Aida, Notre Dame de Paris I’m talking about you!) and I think I’d mentally filed LND in that group. I’m pleased that I’ve been reminded of the songs, and have added a couple to my musicals playlist.
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Post by chernjam on Apr 29, 2020 2:00:16 GMT
I think the fact that it’s a song we’ve heard before is the first part of the problem (as well as the song itself!) I agree that the song does not work as well in a higher key. When you hear Hannah Waddingham sing it in ‘The Beautiful Game’ as a ‘build and belt number’, it has much greater impact as a theatrical moment. Maybe I feel let down by the LND version because I heard Waddingham’s version first and so I’m used to hearing it this way. But wasn't that song aimed for "Phantom II" even BEFORE it became a song for The Beautiful Game? I seem to remember that once upon a time it was sung by Kiri te Kanawa (thus as operatic as it gets) and was called "The heart is slow to learn"? Then it became "Our kind of love" in TBG and finally "Love never dies". That said, I prefer Hannah Waddingham's version, too, although I also always felt that the song itself was a bit too... let's say opulent, for a rather small show set among teenagers during the Troubles. Maybe it's just one of these theatrical songs that work well as standalone songs but don't really fit into a show. Otherwise I echo the sentiments here - it's a good score overall with many beautiful moments, a gorgeous setting in Coney Island... badly let down by the abysmal story. How I wish all that creative energy had gone into a new story or some other book/movie adaptation, it could have been a fabulous show. When ALW first had Kiri sing "The heart is slow to learn" he had billed that as his song for Christine in "Phantom II" - even before he had a show, book, etc. ALW's always described his writing style that he has tunes/melodies attached to characters/scenes/moments - so when it showed up in the beautiful game, I was pretty sure that story was done. But it's obvious this was a personal passion of his and so when he found an idea he thought would work, he was fully invested in it. At this stage in his career he's entitled to have a passion project. It's obvious Phantom kind of transformed an already successful career into another level - and his description of how POTO was one of the most perfect combination of all creatives, its not a shock that he kept revisiting the story. Particularly when after that, his works never equaled that kind of success. |
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Post by djp on Apr 29, 2020 23:23:54 GMT
I enjoyed it. I thought some of the music was lovely. Although at times there did seem to be a bit of a jar between the Christine/Raoul/Phantom scenes and the circus scenes. That's why I think the Australian version is actually worse . The acting was stronger in London and the cast better fitted the story of people being stretched by an impossible dilemma. But the new versions also made the disconnect between the circus/showground and the main plot worse. The answer may have been to bin the Girys, and build up the new exotic American characters. They went the wrong way and cut much of the material originally there for Fleck and the other American newcomers. Better to have built up the exotic American performers , and let them do the dastardly deed? Regurgitating the Girys just added extra cast and diffused the idea of a spectacular new setting.
That still leaves the basic problem that the story builds and builds a difficult dilemma- and then avoids resolving it- leaving the audience around me sitting there stunned, in full what the flipping heck happened then, mode.
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Post by andromedadench on May 1, 2020 12:46:58 GMT
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Post by andromedadench on May 1, 2020 12:48:00 GMT
That's why I think the Australian version is actually worse . The acting was stronger in London and the cast better fitted the story of people being stretched by an impossible dilemma. But the new versions also made the disconnect between the circus/showground and the main plot worse. The answer may have been to bin the Girys, and build up the new exotic American characters. They went the wrong way and cut much of the material originally there for Fleck and the other American newcomers. Better to have built up the exotic American performers , and let them do the dastardly deed? Regurgitating the Girys just added extra cast and diffused the idea of a spectacular new setting.
That still leaves the basic problem that the story builds and builds a difficult dilemma- and then avoids resolving it- leaving the audience around me sitting there stunned, in full what the flipping heck happened then, mode.
I'd like to believe it was the darned YouTube algorithm that pushed me down the trash hole of watching the parts of the freshly uploaded London version and I get what you mean about the acting, however, I think the fact that the actors are aspiring to some kind o realism makes matters even worse as the material demands a total suspense of any vestige of logic or common sense or rational thinking or sobriety... To me, the Australian version seems the only way to present this: go big, go all out, attack all the senses with the outrageous production design to the point of making it a health hazard and go for the big 'Dirty Dan and Angie Having a Row Behind the Bar' energy in Phantom/Christine interactions, so that the audience is dazed and incapacitated to ask themselves what on earth they're watching. The London production gets the additional minus points from me for that Christine-robot which I now vaguely remember reading about at the time but have (understandably) forgot about since and which, even in the tough competition of shockers this show consists of, takes the biscuit as the biggest 'I have so many questions but I'm afraid to ask them' moment. All that being said, I still think LND has an entertainment value. Not for the right reasons, but watching it is not something I regret (till the day I dieeeeeeeee) I'm just kind of sad such a genuinely catchy score didn't end up in something better. |
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Post by chernjam on May 4, 2020 4:37:42 GMT
The London production gets the additional minus points from me for that Christine-robot which I now vaguely remember reading about at the time but have (understandably) forgot about since and which, even in the tough competition of shockers this show consists of, takes the biscuit as the biggest 'I have so many questions but I'm afraid to ask them' moment. All that being said, I still think LND has an entertainment value. Not for the right reasons, but watching it is not something I regret (till the day I dieeeeeeeee) I'm just kind of sad such a genuinely catchy score didn't end up in something better. Oh the robot... I had forgotten about that. London LND - I know it has it's fans on here, but to me it looked like one hot mess. I sort of liked watching the prologue and how Coney Island comes back to life - but it really did nothing for the story at all, more confusing than anything. Australia with the painting of Christine (that unfortunately in the film doesn't capture how Christine's image sort of comes to life in it) was much more effective then asking why is Sierra acting like a mannequin? |
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Post by sal on May 5, 2020 22:46:34 GMT
Sorry, much as I hoped LND would live up to its predecessor, it arrived in the creative slump of ALW's career. A few competent melodies but overall everybody turned up without a coherent story to tell. The key missing person who might have saved the show was Hal Prince, but for probably very sensible reasons, he wasn't part of the process. Love Never Dies is ocular proof that ALW was not the root of Phantom's success. |
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Post by horton on May 6, 2020 14:22:00 GMT
Now you pay attention to me? (  ) |
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Post by ABr on May 20, 2020 16:15:01 GMT
With the announcement of Curve now staying closed until the end of October, we can now assume that this will be rescheduled to next year, hopefully!
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Post by CG on the loose on May 20, 2020 16:52:47 GMT
With the announcement of Curve now staying closed until the end of October, we can now assume that this will be rescheduled to next year, hopefully! It's on their list of Rescheduled shows with dates "TBC". While Roman Holiday, which I thought was originally announced as being put back to next year (but I may have missed a later update), is on the list of Cancelled shows. But that's off topic. As you were |
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42ndBlvd
Ensemble
come and meet those dancing feet!
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Post by 42ndBlvd on May 25, 2020 12:18:00 GMT
I much preferred this Christines voice to Sierra Bogies’. Much less piercing and my wine glass didn’t shatter, however the Phantom didn’t quite match up to Ramin Karimloo for me. I just think that the score is quite glorious. Yes it is repetitive, but those great big ‘smash you in the face’ sweeping melodies more than make up for the terrible story. There are lots of real ‘songs’ in there too which is why I was surprised that people didn’t take to it. Edit: Mrs B sat visibly wincing through most of the running time, and when I told her it was ‘Cats’ next she said that it would be my turn to do the same next week. Send help. And we are blessed by his facial expressions. |
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Post by danb on May 25, 2020 14:35:59 GMT
Maybe he was trying for ‘dead eyed blank’?
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Post by david on May 27, 2020 11:33:47 GMT
New Manc dates - 18-22 May 2021
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Post by Deleted on May 27, 2020 11:40:22 GMT
New Manc dates - 18-22 May 2021 Ahhh that's good :-) Something positive to offset the Phantom news! |
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As for 'Love Never Dies' - I don't think the song works in a higher key. Christine sounded screechy on the higher notes, and the song didn't really feel like the 'big moment' song. 
I especially lose it at '..I was no longer SHY'
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