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Post by theatremadness on Apr 23, 2016 13:12:18 GMT
Flops aren't necessarily bad, they can just be not popular. Some of the best things I've seen had very short, unsuccesful, runs. I always feel appreciative that writers/producers continue to take chances - even when they don't always become hits. Yes, absolutely agree with this!! The Drowsy Chaperone is one of my all-time favourite musicals - but it was an absolute massive flop. I loved Lend Me A Tenor so much I saw it twice in a week. MASSIVE flop. I also adored The Umbrellas of Cherbourg. MASSIVE FLOP. On the other hand, I really didn't like Bend It Like Beckham, but that ran for longer than any others I mentioned above. Just personal taste - always crap when a great show closes, though! |
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Post by theatre-turtle on Apr 23, 2016 13:25:31 GMT
I don't really know why Bend It extended. I saw it in month 2 on a Friday night and they sold me a ticket for £19 for middle of the dress circle.
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Post by horton on Apr 23, 2016 13:50:21 GMT
There was a thread about his on the other board and it was mentioned in another thread on here.
The vast majority of UK musicals in the past 20 years have lost money, apart from jukebox shows.
If you take out those shows aimed at family/ kids audiences you are left with 0 British musicals that have been commercially successful since Billy Elliot and Acorn Antiques. All those figures declaring record-breaking box office relate to the old guard (Phantom, Les Mis) and the family shows (Matilda, Lion King, Wonka) and the occasional revival- usually from Chichester.
The new British musical is an endangered species. The audience just isn't there.
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Post by viserys on Apr 23, 2016 13:58:59 GMT
There was a thread about his on the other board and it was mentioned in another thread on here. The vast majority of UK musicals in the past 20 years have lost money, apart from jukebox shows. If you take out those shows aimed at family/ kids audiences you are left with 0 British musicals that have been commercially successful since Billy Elliot and Acorn Antiques. All those figures declaring record-breaking box office relate to the old guard (Phantom, Les Mis) and the family shows (Matilda, Lion King, Wonka) and the occasional revival- usually from Chichester. The new British musical is an endangered species. The audience just isn't there. This. I was trying to write a response like this but didn't know how to put it best (and feeling I've said this at least once before). I could say that I thought "Made in Dagenham" deserved to do better, that "Beckham" did not, etc. pp. but each show will have its own fans and people who loathe it. What I find really disheartening is that Matilda is the only musical recently that managed to run long enough to see some cast changes. Off the top of my head, we'e had From Here to Eternity, Stephen Ward, Made in Dagenham, I can't sing, Bend it like Beckham and now Mrs Henderson flopping more or less. The only bigger musical recently has has been doing reasonably well seems to be Kinky Boots. Which also disproves (my own) theory that people just don't care for movie adaptations as they seem to like this one, but didn't care for Stephen Ward, which was an original musical. (I'm not including revivals like Gypsy or now Funny Girl, which are somewhat known commodities and thus find it easier to make people part with their money and the stars were/are absolute draws). So, yes, we have a bunch of money-spinners that seem to be going on forever like Les Mis, Phantom and Lion King and otherwise jukebox musicals doing well (Beautiful and Sunny Afternoon are still around, Motown going strong...). I just find that disheartening overall. Sure, it's not that different from Broadway, but it seems that there's a higher percentage of shows that at least manage what I'd call "decent runs" of 2-3 years before folding and often going on on tour. I can't blame producers for becoming more and more risk-averse but I dread the day the West End has become more or less a theme park for tourists with safe titles and jukebox shows. |
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Post by horton on Apr 23, 2016 14:35:21 GMT
Fun Home, Hamilton, Gentleman's Guide, Spring Awakening, Book of Mormon (ish), In the Heights, Urinetown, Drowsy Chaperone, Spelling Bee. Just off the top of my head- new musicals coming from a non-movie adap source which recouped their investment. Broadway is in a MUCH healthier position with its new musicals.
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Post by viserys on Apr 23, 2016 15:17:27 GMT
Well, Gentleman's Guide is based on a movie too (albeit one that had a different name) and both Spring Awakening and Fun Home have book sources they follow rather slavishly (to a point where I found myself bored by Fun Home because the show didn't really add anything to the wonderful graphic novel it is based on). And plenty of big new musicals tanked, such as Bullets over Broadway, Big Fish, Bridges of Madison County and that's just what I cant think of off the top of my head.
But overall, of course, you are right. Obviously, if London - like Broadway - would produce 5-6 new big(gish) musicals each season instead of one or two, there'd be a bigger chance that at least one of them would stick around for a few years.
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Post by horton on Apr 23, 2016 17:27:21 GMT
I'm not talking about whether they were good or not- just whether they recouped investment and therefore had a decent run. And yes shows do flop on Broadway, the point is, ALL new British musicals in London seem to die on their arse- nowadays even Cam Mac and ALW are not immune. The demographic has changed massively over the past 20 years and the industry doesn't seem to notice and/ or care, as if it is quite natural.
Having worked in the West End during the heydays of the late 80s and early 90s, I can't help but grieve the loss of creativity, artistry and employment British musicals used to bring.
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Post by anthony40 on Apr 23, 2016 17:54:41 GMT
Would we class Stephen Ward as a flop? I mean certainly in terms of Lloyd-Webbers previous show definitely.
From Here To Eternity definitely was.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 23, 2016 18:00:47 GMT
Stephen Ward was 100% a flop... and a god awful show!
Only three months run when it is intended to be open ended, definitely a flop!
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Post by Michael on Apr 23, 2016 18:00:59 GMT
Would we class Stephen Ward as a flop? I mean certainly in terms of Lloyd-Webbers previous show definitely. I definitely would. Saw it in the Christmas period when London was full of tourists and was upgraded from my Grand Circle seat over two levels to the Stalls - both Grand and Dress Circle were closed. But I can fully see why, as it simply isnt a very good show. If it weren't for ALW's name, it'd have never been staged. |
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Post by basdfg on Apr 23, 2016 18:07:28 GMT
I hope Show Boat lasts till its closing date.
Ive never been to a theatre which has had sections closed off I think. Even when I went to Jersey Boys which was fairly empty all here levels were open.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 23, 2016 18:21:37 GMT
I hope Show Boat lasts till its closing date. Ive never been to a theatre which has had sections closed off I think. Even when I went to Jersey Boys which was fairly empty all here levels were open. Yes I have never been to a theatre with sections closed of either. I hope Show Boat lasts too |
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Post by theatre-turtle on Apr 23, 2016 18:28:14 GMT
I hope Show Boat lasts till its closing date. Ive never been to a theatre which has had sections closed off I think. Even when I went to Jersey Boys which was fairly empty all here levels were open. Yes I have never been to a theatre with sections closed of either. I hope Show Boat lasts too I'm a bit surprised as this is quite a common phenomenon. You must do well to avoid 'flopping' shows. Mrs Henderson is currently closing both the balcony and upper circle at many performances. Miss Saigon didn't even sell the upper circle for most of the Monday-Thursday performances of its final 6 months of its run. |
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Post by basdfg on Apr 23, 2016 18:31:23 GMT
The Upper was open for Miss Saigon at Christmas I think.
I do avoid flops. At the west end I have only seen Lion King (2003) Chitty (2005) Mary Poppins (2006) Sound of Music (2007) Oliver (2009) Wizard of Oz (2011) Jersey Boys (2012) White Christmas (2014) and Miss Saigon this Christmas.
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Post by anthony40 on Apr 23, 2016 19:57:10 GMT
Yes I have never been to a theatre with sections closed of either. I'm a bit surprised as this is quite a common phenomenon. You must do well to avoid 'flopping' shows. Mrs Henderson is currently closing both the balcony and upper circle at many performances. Miss Saigon didn't even sell the upper circle for most of the Monday-Thursday performances of its final 6 months of its run. Oh I have. I saw Spamalot in it's final weeks and won some sort of lottery for £2 to be in the upper circle but was moved to the Dress Circle as all other levels were closed. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 23, 2016 20:00:53 GMT
I don't think I have ever been to a show where a level has been closed other than BILB... both times I saw it the Upper Circle was closed and that was Summer 2015 and Winter 2015.
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Post by Michael on Apr 23, 2016 20:05:35 GMT
In a few of my Memphis visits (mostly midweek though), the Grand Circle was closed.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 23, 2016 21:03:15 GMT
I've not knowingly been to a show with sections closed off, but then I tend to sit stalls or dress circle so probably wouldn't notice. Also tend to go at weekends
I have sat in half empty stalls before
Wicked and drowsy chaperone spring to mind
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Post by Deleted on Apr 23, 2016 22:01:15 GMT
Yes I have never been to a theatre with sections closed of either. I hope Show Boat lasts too I'm a bit surprised as this is quite a common phenomenon. You must do well to avoid 'flopping' shows. Mrs Henderson is currently closing both the balcony and upper circle at many performances. Miss Saigon didn't even sell the upper circle for most of the Monday-Thursday performances of its final 6 months of its run. Ah well I usually 100% of the time go to the theatre on a weekend so it's usually busy. I saw Mrs Henderson but it was just as soon as it opened so fairly busy. Stalls seats were very expensive so say in grand circle and not upgraded but probably would be now. Went for a friends birthday to BILB and we were upgraded to front row stalls from upper circle. Stalls basically half empty and that was a Saturday matinee! We usually sit in stalls so I would notice the upper circle being closed...but it have seen some shows will quite a few stalls seats free. On Mamma Mia on NYE, a row or two of seats not filled but all tiers were open. |
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Post by drowseychap on Apr 24, 2016 22:10:35 GMT
Totally agree drowsey chaperone I loved really great show ... Another was the goodbye girl ... Still went on to a very successful tour Flops aren't necessarily bad, they can just be not popular. Some of the best things I've seen had very short, unsuccesful, runs. I always feel appreciative that writers/producers continue to take chances - even when they don't always become hits. Yes, absolutely agree with this!! The Drowsy Chaperone is one of my all-time favourite musicals - but it was an absolute massive flop. I loved Lend Me A Tenor so much I saw it twice in a week. MASSIVE flop. I also adored The Umbrellas of Cherbourg. MASSIVE FLOP. On the other hand, I really didn't like Bend It Like Beckham, but that ran for longer than any others I mentioned above. Just personal taste - always crap when a great show closes, though! |
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Post by Jon on Apr 25, 2016 18:40:12 GMT
Didn't Bombay Dreams run for about two years?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 25, 2016 18:56:09 GMT
Excuse the metaphor but Sonia Friedman literally dropped the ball on this one. I'd like to be fair to Sonia Friedman. The actual show was produced to a very high level, cast and creative. Yes, they didn't quite solve the football itself, but those of us who did see it - for the most part - had a really good evening out. Her problem was the a particular brand of market resistance to the content. If you look back over the history of West End plays and musicals, two subjects which just don't sell are "Football" and "Ethnic."* Putting both together as a subject and on a poster is a mountain rather than a hill to climb, even with the charm of the original film behind it. Well done her for having a try, I'd say. *I REALLY hope that doesn't offend, it was not intended to, but it was the only way I could describe anything other than well, "White, British." I don't think the idea worked very well and a musical made out of it wasn't the grandest idea. She could've invested in better shows. Saying that, all her other shows are always amazing and that's why I look up to her as a role model for aspiring producers. She has two of the biggest talked about musicals arriving this year, Funny Girl and Dreamgirls, both of which has done extremely well at box office already and will be done to a great standard. Well done for a try on BILB but I didn't enjoy it |
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Post by Phantom of London on Apr 25, 2016 19:36:08 GMT
I always thought "Vampires" were the elephant in the room, for musicals.
Saying that when I said "dropped the ball" I meant it didn't do well as expected", I am sure the project was to pack them in at eye watering prices. I saw Beckham thrice and I did enjoy it, I don't agree it was a 5 star show as many of the media did, thought it was 3 stars. Although it was about Football and Race at its heart was 'accepting yourself for who you really are', which has always sold well in musical theatre.
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Post by djp on Apr 25, 2016 20:04:25 GMT
Excuse the metaphor but Sonia Friedman literally dropped the ball on this one. I'd like to be fair to Sonia Friedman. The actual show was produced to a very high level, cast and creative. Yes, they didn't quite solve the football itself, but those of us who did see it - for the most part - had a really good evening out. Her problem was the a particular brand of market resistance to the content. If you look back over the history of West End plays and musicals, two subjects which just don't sell are "Football" and "Ethnic."* Putting both together as a subject and on a poster is a mountain rather than a hill to climb, even with the charm of the original film behind it. Well done her for having a try, I'd say. *I REALLY hope that doesn't offend, it was not intended to, but it was the only way I could describe anything other than well, "White, British." It might be subject matter. You might also argue that Dagenham suffered from also trying to run an important piece of social history with a positive message . The sad thing is that Dagenham, Bendit, I can't Sing, Mrs Henderson, Memphis, and Love Dies all got their casting right, had better talent on show than some shows selling more, and the people l who went ended up in standing ovations. The problem is getting people in the door- and not having so many of those turning up, sitting behind me, saying i Didn't know this was a musical It might be something simpler though too. If you pick a film title , your title is unknown to anyone who hasn't seen the film. Films don't get seen by many people these days. Mrs Henderson tells the ticket buyer nothing. Bendit nothing. Memphis - nothing. Bloke's name from the Profumo scandal nothing. From here to Eternity - who has seen it recently? Even Miss Saigon shows a history, most people now have never been taught. Thats before you get to the dud books - like Viva, Love never dies, and the wrong title associations - like with the X factor and not being able to sing. Motown, however, seems to be pulling people in, without stars - presumably because they go expecting Motown music . Kinky Boots sounds intriguing. Funny girl sounds funny, and sells out because Sheridan is in it anyway. Alladin is well known. And Harry Potter is a money making dream even if its terrible, |
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Post by Jon on Apr 26, 2016 12:50:09 GMT
Familarity and nostalgia seems to sell hence why musicals tend to be based on films or books or use pre existing music. Something like Kinky Boots which while based on a film, the film itself wasn't that well known in America, it was the story that appealed to the producers and eventually audiences.
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