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Post by latefortheoverture on May 22, 2019 18:01:53 GMT
Don't know if this is the correct thread- move if not. I've just read which, to me, was a fascinating article. It follows a fringe show from initial idea to end of the run, and what comes along with it. One thing that caught me off guard was the money it was going to cost to stage; £40,000!!!!! I understand that staging any show is expensive, especially big broadway and west end spectacles. But I did not think staging a fringe production of a play cost £40,000 Does anyone else have any insight as to costs on other productions, I'm so intrigued. The article in question, worth a read tbf. www.thestage.co.uk/features/2019/anatomy-of-a-fringe-production/ |
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Post by frontrowcentre on May 22, 2019 18:54:03 GMT
I also find this very interesting! I often check the box office figures for broadway, It would be interesting to know what the West End shows make and how full the treaters are. Also I wonder how much The Menier, Southwark Playhouse spend on the productions...
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Post by BurlyBeaR on May 22, 2019 19:16:03 GMT
Hope Mill MCR have used crowdfunding to get some of their shows off the ground. I totally appreciate why they have to do this (they don’t get arts council funding I think) but it doesn’t sit well with me.
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Post by oxfordsimon on May 22, 2019 20:09:12 GMT
The most expensive production I ever mounted (and it was amateur) cost £83K to stage - for 6 performances. OK, it did have a huge cast and the pit band (plus 4 others) received some payment. But it is easy how unavoidable costs mount up very rapidly.
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Post by CG on the loose on May 22, 2019 20:22:49 GMT
In the programme for Curious Case of Benjamin Button at Southwark Playhouse, they had a 2-page "open books" feature on the costs of the production, really interesting and the first time I'd seen anything like that in a programme.  |
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Post by wickedgrin on May 22, 2019 21:51:06 GMT
A very interesting article.
So many of the costs I could take issue with but let’s take just one. Theatre hire costs. Well, I say theatre but really it’s just a room above a pub that can accommodate an audience of only 62. Charging £1500 a week PLUS 30% of the box office is extortion! The landlords of these pubs must be laughing all the way to the bank, they after all, get all the profits from the drinks they sell to the audience who wouldn’t be there if it wasn’t for the play.
There must be a huge shortage of venues and huge demand for theatre companies wanting to put on shows to inflate these hire prices.
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Post by samuelwhiskers on May 22, 2019 23:40:36 GMT
That quote is rather high. I could name many successful fringe productions made for a budget of a tenth that, mainly venues that offer box office split rather than hire fees. On the other hand I know two people who've recently had to turn down offers from the notoriously expensive Park (whose weekly venue hire is £4750 to 503's £1500, albeit Park is larger) due to not getting their ACE funding. It's a tough old world. There must be a huge shortage of venues and huge demand for theatre companies wanting to put on shows to inflate these hire prices. This exactly. And 503 are on the cheaper end of the scale. |
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Post by Jon on May 23, 2019 0:51:04 GMT
I also find this very interesting! I often check the box office figures for broadway, It would be interesting to know what the West End shows make and how full the treaters are. Also I wonder how much The Menier, Southwark Playhouse spend on the productions... The New York Times had an article on the Menier back in 2010 where they said they spend about £80,000 on plays and between £300-500,000 on musicals but inflation and increasing costs means that those figures are likely much higher now. |
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Post by musicalmarge on May 23, 2019 5:18:02 GMT
Don't know if this is the correct thread- move if not. I've just read which, to me, was a fascinating article. It follows a fringe show from initial idea to end of the run, and what comes along with it. One thing that caught me off guard was the money it was going to cost to stage; £40,000!!!!! I understand that staging any show is expensive, especially big broadway and west end spectacles. But I did not think staging a fringe production of a play cost £40,000 Does anyone else have any insight as to costs on other productions, I'm so intrigued. The article in question, worth a read tbf. www.thestage.co.uk/features/2019/anatomy-of-a-fringe-production/Why are you shocked? I know amateur companies who have budgets of around that and more to stage a show for a week! |
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Post by latefortheoverture on May 23, 2019 11:49:27 GMT
Don't know if this is the correct thread- move if not. I've just read which, to me, was a fascinating article. It follows a fringe show from initial idea to end of the run, and what comes along with it. One thing that caught me off guard was the money it was going to cost to stage; £40,000!!!!! I understand that staging any show is expensive, especially big broadway and west end spectacles. But I did not think staging a fringe production of a play cost £40,000 Does anyone else have any insight as to costs on other productions, I'm so intrigued. The article in question, worth a read tbf. www.thestage.co.uk/features/2019/anatomy-of-a-fringe-production/Why are you shocked? I know amateur companies who have budgets of around that and more to stage a show for a week! I knew big productions cost big money, but I was just surprised at £40,000 for a 60+ seat theatre above a pub!!!! |
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Post by latefortheoverture on May 23, 2019 11:50:33 GMT
I didn't realise these off-west end theatres had so much money running through them, of course earning is another matter, but £300-500,000 is a big gamble!
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Post by firefingers on May 23, 2019 13:41:45 GMT
As far as venue fees go, it's not just a room. You are paying for staffing (maybe one box office and one venue tech), a space will be equipped with basic light and sound, rigging equipment, ladders, tools, seating, dressing room space (that would make a nice kitchen, they could do food instead and chuck this theatre nonsense), then everything has to have safety stuff to adear to and be maintained (fire extinguishers, pat testing etc). Though a problem does lie in some theatres actually providing all this and others charging the same but not doing the extras. Some theatres are worth it, some aren't
I think people forget about all the extras. Its not just a cast, a director and a couple of chairs, although part of me feels fringe should be that so the people get paid half decently. There are whole departments (set, costume, lights, sound, marketing, stage management) possibly comprising of several people each, to be paid for,and their equipment too.
A musical might have a cast of six and a director but also on the pay roll for even something Southwark Playhouse sized you can expect:
Choreographer
Assistant choreographer
Production manager
Set/Costume designer
Several assistants for the said designer to actually make the stuff
Lighting designer
Production LX (or two) to rig the lights
Sound designer
Production sound (or two)
A stage management team of two at least
A sound operator
General crew to build set/get it out
Marketing manager
And then all these people's work has a cost (lighting designer will need to hire in additional equipment, which requires transporting and tech support, all at a cost).
Basically it is a miracle theatre happens at all!
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Post by Someone in a tree on May 23, 2019 14:34:00 GMT
Yonks ago for Sunday at the Chocolate Starfish I noticed it had an assistant choreographer and just thought why as its not a dance show - I have two left trotters so what do I know?
Can anyone enlighten me as to why?
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Post by firefingers on May 23, 2019 17:24:44 GMT
Yonks ago for Sunday at the Chocolate Starfish I noticed it had an assistant choreographer and just thought why as its not a dance show - I have two left trotters so what do I know? Can anyone enlighten me as to why? So a choreographer will sometimes not just do dance in numbers, but all movement. Getting several cast to flow on and off stage, particularly in a compact venue, is a real skill in itself. The assistant will be there to cover calls that the choreographer themselves can't make due to other commitments. EDIT: Although, it varies. Sometimes you get assistants who do all the work, based on vague ideas from the person they are working for who still end up with the credit, or assistants who just takes notes and observe the process. |
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Post by stagemanager on May 24, 2019 0:51:03 GMT
On the Park Theatre website they have an example budget for people considering applying to present a Production at the venue. While I would argue that some figures are low and there are many additional costs that can mount up depending on the specifics of a Production you can see how expensive it can quickly become to mount a show. www.parktheatre.co.uk/get-involved/submissions |
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Post by Phantom of London on May 25, 2019 15:55:58 GMT
Hope Mill MCR have used crowdfunding to get some of their shows off the ground. I totally appreciate why they have to do this (they don’t get arts council funding I think) but it doesn’t sit well with me. Where I am very happy to defend Hope Mill, they pay their talent the Equity fringe rate, this is very commendable and only wish every fringe theatre would do the same. |
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Post by Phantom of London on May 25, 2019 16:01:26 GMT
I also find this very interesting! I often check the box office figures for broadway, It would be interesting to know what the West End shows make and how full the treaters are. Also I wonder how much The Menier, Southwark Playhouse spend on the productions... The New York Times had an article on the Menier back in 2010 where they said they spend about £80,000 on plays and between £300-500,000 on musicals but inflation and increasing costs means that those figures are likely much higher now. The Menier make a loss on their musicals. They’re reliant on transfers to recoup. I heard many years ago that the Menier had a maximum wage ceiling of £450 a week, don’t know if this is still the case or indeed even true? I a week. I would imagine an extra zero on the end, plus an apartment!!! |
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Post by alece10 on May 25, 2019 17:46:39 GMT
The New York Times had an article on the Menier back in 2010 where they said they spend about £80,000 on plays and between £300-500,000 on musicals but inflation and increasing costs means that those figures are likely much higher now. The Menier make a loss on their musicals. They’re reliant on transfers to recoup. I heard many years ago that the Menier had a maximum wage ceiling of £450 a week, don’t know if this is still the case or indeed even true? I a week. I would imagine an extra zero on the end, plus an apartment!!! The restaurant also helps in recouping some of the costs which is why all their shows start at 8pm to allow people to eat and bring in much needed revenue. |
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Post by Jon on May 25, 2019 18:09:01 GMT
The Menier also general manage their transfer which brings in another source of income.
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Post by Phantom of London on May 25, 2019 21:26:23 GMT
The New York Times had an article on the Menier back in 2010 where they said they spend about £80,000 on plays and between £300-500,000 on musicals but inflation and increasing costs means that those figures are likely much higher now. The Menier make a loss on their musicals. They’re reliant on transfers to recoup. I heard many years ago that the Menier had a maximum wage ceiling of £450 a week, don’t know if this is still the case or indeed even true? I a week. I would imagine an extra zero on the end, plus an apartment!!! I a week was meant to be Judy Kuhn but Apple had other ideas. |
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Post by joem on May 25, 2019 23:47:33 GMT
Very interesting thread and in particular the original post and the link to the Park Theatre's sample budget. As someone who is in the early stages of preparing his first London fringe production I find this information extremely useful - though I have to say straight off I will not be risking £40,000 to satisfy my ego!!!
I think it is important to note that "fringe" covers a multitude of sins - from well-established commercialised operations such as the Chocolate Menier to a group of students hiring a venue to put on a show. I know for sure I will not be looking at Theatre 503, they may feel justified in charging what they do as it supports their own productions but £1,500 a week plus 30% of box-office takings is extortionate by any measure, but for a theatre with a capacity of 63....
Clearly size of cast and complexity of staging a play are crucial factors in determining cost. Also interesting to note the Park Theatre 200's budget actually sets costs at £20,000 a week which gives the production company a far better chance of breaking even, admittedly haven't considered how many of these costs are amortised over the five weeks and would make a one-week stint proportionately more expensive. To sell 8,000 tickets is quite a feat unless you have a really strong selling point - cast or theme.
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Post by joem on Jun 1, 2019 18:04:38 GMT
Further on this, can any kind person in the know point me to where I can find current fringe payment rates? The Equity page requires membership to get the info and it seems kinda odd I should have to pay in order to know what is a fair pay for performers and creatives! Please post or message if you can help? Thanks!
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Post by olliebean on Jun 1, 2019 21:41:30 GMT
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