1,114 posts
|
Post by Stephen on Aug 26, 2019 13:12:01 GMT
I had to return my ticket for tomorrow evening so it may be put on sale this afternoon. Worth checking the website in a while if you're free and keen to see this!
|
|
89 posts
|
Post by gazzaw13 on Aug 26, 2019 21:55:50 GMT
Wow this was excellent. Interesting debate on science vs faith but the real standout is how Icke challenges the audience’s unconscious bias by the practice of gender and race swapping actors. Having read some reviews I was unsure how this would work and concerned that this was an Icke gimmick. Trust me it is a revelatory technique that adds immense depth to the play. Amongst our group of true bleeding heart liberals there was a lot of questioning of our responses to what we were seeing. Undoubtedly 5* and one of the highlights of 2019.
|
|
833 posts
|
Post by bordeaux on Aug 27, 2019 10:54:39 GMT
I really enjoyed this, though I suffered from the lack of someone to discuss it with afterwards as I went alone. I do have some questions or niggles, though. I wondered why Icke had not updated the religious conflict, which to me seems rather distant from the contemporary world: wouldn't there have been more of a frisson of danger if the conflict had been between secularism and Islam rather than secularism and Roman Catholicism ? Perhaps that would have been too controversial or dangerous? I can imagine that if the Doctor slagged off Islam in the way she criticised the Roman Catholic church there would have been more tension. Though, I suppose, arts organisations are more afraid of Muslim over-reaction to criticism than Catholic over-reaction?
There was something not quite right about the TV panel scene, I thought, which the Time Out reviewer picked up on. Is the audience meant to think the academics are as wrong-headed as the Christian campaigner and the pro-lifer? The expressions of irritation or exasperation from the very middle-class middle-aged almost exclusively white audience were the same. It is true that the doctor is made to realise she used a word she shouldn't have but I wasn't entirely sure what Icke was getting at here with regard to identity politics. Is he criticising it, or saying it's gone too far, or both?
But a fascinating and absorbing evening all in all. Though, again, would the the doctor, even one brought up in her privileged world, have used that word?
|
|
2,339 posts
|
Post by zahidf on Aug 27, 2019 10:59:34 GMT
I wondered why Icke had not updated the religious conflict, which to me seems rather distant from the contemporary world: wouldn't there have been more of a frisson of danger if the conflict had been between secularism and Islam rather than secularism and Roman Catholicism ? Perhaps that would have been too controversial or dangerous? I can imagine that if the Doctor slagged off Islam in the way she criticised the Roman Catholic church there would have been more tension. Though, I suppose, arts organisations are more afraid of Muslim over-reaction to criticism than Catholic over-reaction? Not sure what you mean tbh. Thought it worked perfectly fine the way it was done.
|
|
|
Post by Fleance on Aug 27, 2019 11:30:07 GMT
There was something not quite right about the TV panel scene, I thought, which the Time Out reviewer picked up on. I thought it odd that, although there was a reference in the script to the fact that there were groups who supported the doctor, the panel was so utterly one-sided.
|
|
2,706 posts
|
Post by Cardinal Pirelli on Aug 27, 2019 11:54:12 GMT
There was something not quite right about the TV panel scene, I thought, which the Time Out reviewer picked up on. I thought it odd that, although there was a reference in the script to the fact that there were groups who supported the doctor, the panel was so utterly one-sided. Confrontational television is all around us, it was mirroring that sort of trial by media, I think.
|
|
185 posts
|
Post by harry on Aug 27, 2019 15:56:41 GMT
There was something not quite right about the TV panel scene, I thought, which the Time Out reviewer picked up on. Is the audience meant to think the academics are as wrong-headed as the Christian campaigner and the pro-lifer? The expressions of irritation or exasperation from the very middle-class middle-aged almost exclusively white audience were the same. It is true that the doctor is made to realise she used a word she shouldn't have but I wasn't entirely sure what Icke was getting at here with regard to identity politics. Is he criticising it, or saying it's gone too far, or both? But a fascinating and absorbing evening all in all. Though, again, would the the doctor, even one brought up in her privileged world, have used that word? I think the key thing is that the word has a racist connotation but is also used in general parlance {Spoiler - click to view}(it's in the title of a Mr. Man book still widely read by children as far as I know...) so we're being asked to consider whether in using the word to describe a black man it came from some place of racial bias (conscious or subconscious) or whether she genuinely didn't consider or know the connotation when using it. {Spoiler - click to view}Obviously the fact that the black man in question is played by a white actor so when we the audience hear her use the word to him earlier in the play, we don't pick up on the potentially racist connotation adds to the complexity and "grey area" nature of the whole thing.
|
|
833 posts
|
Post by bordeaux on Aug 27, 2019 20:06:18 GMT
There was something not quite right about the TV panel scene, I thought, which the Time Out reviewer picked up on. Is the audience meant to think the academics are as wrong-headed as the Christian campaigner and the pro-lifer? The expressions of irritation or exasperation from the very middle-class middle-aged almost exclusively white audience were the same. It is true that the doctor is made to realise she used a word she shouldn't have but I wasn't entirely sure what Icke was getting at here with regard to identity politics. Is he criticising it, or saying it's gone too far, or both? But a fascinating and absorbing evening all in all. Though, again, would the the doctor, even one brought up in her privileged world, have used that word? I think the key thing is that the word has a racist connotation but is also used in general parlance {Spoiler - click to view}(it's in the title of a Mr. Man book still widely read by children as far as I know...) so we're being asked to consider whether in using the word to describe a black man it came from some place of racial bias (conscious or subconscious) or whether she genuinely didn't consider or know the connotation when using it. {Spoiler - click to view}Obviously the fact that the black man in question is played by a white actor so when we the audience hear her use the word to him earlier in the play, we don't pick up on the potentially racist connotation adds to the complexity and "grey area" nature of the whole thing. I must admit I think the word has only been used in that one way for some time, but I could be wrong. And some people are tone deaf when it comes to language and race; viz. the clumsy use of the word 'coloured' by some people who have to apologise afterwards.
|
|
|
Post by vickyg on Aug 28, 2019 9:51:28 GMT
I think the key thing is that the word has a racist connotation but is also used in general parlance {Spoiler - click to view}(it's in the title of a Mr. Man book still widely read by children as far as I know...) so we're being asked to consider whether in using the word to describe a black man it came from some place of racial bias (conscious or subconscious) or whether she genuinely didn't consider or know the connotation when using it. {Spoiler - click to view}Obviously the fact that the black man in question is played by a white actor so when we the audience hear her use the word to him earlier in the play, we don't pick up on the potentially racist connotation adds to the complexity and "grey area" nature of the whole thing. I must admit I think the word has only been used in that one way for some time, but I could be wrong. And some people are tone deaf when it comes to language and race; viz. the clumsy use of the word 'coloured' by some people who have to apologise afterwards. I have canvassed quite a lot of people I have come into contact with since I first saw this play a week ago on Friday and not one single person, including myself, was aware of the connotations of this word. I certainly wouldn't consider myself tone deaf, but I would have happily used that word to describe anyone without an iota of knowledge of what I was actually saying, so I can well believe the Doctor was not aware.
|
|
89 posts
|
Post by gazzaw13 on Aug 28, 2019 10:15:59 GMT
I must admit I think the word has only been used in that one way for some time, but I could be wrong. And some people are tone deaf when it comes to language and race; viz. the clumsy use of the word 'coloured' by some people who have to apologise afterwards. I have canvassed quite a lot of people I have come into contact with since I first saw this play a week ago on Friday and not one single person, including myself, was aware of the connotations of this word. I certainly wouldn't consider myself tone deaf, but I would have happily used that word to describe anyone without an iota of knowledge of what I was actually saying, so I can well believe the Doctor was not aware. Like vickyg I also did some canvassing and found it was an ‘age thing’. Those old enough to have seen or lived through the time of In the Heat of the Night and Blazing Saddles made the link but the younger group had no idea.
|
|
5,495 posts
|
Post by Baemax on Aug 28, 2019 10:28:47 GMT
If it helps any, I've not seen the play but putting together the clues of one of the Mr Men having a name that these days carries negative racial connotations, I am confident I have worked out what word you're all talking about. Mid-thirties, if you're trying to put age brackets on whether people know of this word as being used in a racist manner or not.
|
|
1,008 posts
|
Post by andrew on Aug 28, 2019 10:29:43 GMT
I have canvassed quite a lot of people I have come into contact with since I first saw this play a week ago on Friday and not one single person, including myself, was aware of the connotations of this word. I certainly wouldn't consider myself tone deaf, but I would have happily used that word to describe anyone without an iota of knowledge of what I was actually saying, so I can well believe the Doctor was not aware. Like vickyg I also did some canvassing and found it was an ‘age thing’. Those old enough to have seen or lived through the time of In the Heat of the Night and Blazing Saddles made the link but the younger group had no idea. Yeah it meant nothing to me, I thought the 'uppity' discussion therefore seemed a bit forced. Seems it was my relative ignorance then!
|
|
|
Post by missthelma on Aug 28, 2019 11:54:25 GMT
If it helps any, I've not seen the play but putting together the clues of one of the Mr Men having a name that these days carries negative racial connotations, I am confident I have worked out what word you're all talking about. Mid-thirties, if you're trying to put age brackets on whether people know of this word as being used in a racist manner or not. Me too! After a Google search anyway.
I was going to try and see this but have just had a helpful email from Almeida saying it's sold out. It wasn't when I last looked so that can only be a good sign for positive word of mouth.
Am a smidgen older (if two decades can be called a smidgen) than Baemax and to me that word is a very American term I would expect to see in Civil War dramas or Deep South set works. I don't think it has the same meaning or connotations in UK at all. Where is the play set?
|
|
|
Post by vickyg on Aug 28, 2019 12:49:10 GMT
If it helps any, I've not seen the play but putting together the clues of one of the Mr Men having a name that these days carries negative racial connotations, I am confident I have worked out what word you're all talking about. Mid-thirties, if you're trying to put age brackets on whether people know of this word as being used in a racist manner or not. Me too! After a Google search anyway.
I was going to try and see this but have just had a helpful email from Almeida saying it's sold out. It wasn't when I last looked so that can only be a good sign for positive word of mouth.
Am a smidgen older (if two decades can be called a smidgen) than Baemax and to me that word is a very American term I would expect to see in Civil War dramas or Deep South set works. I don't think it has the same meaning or connotations in UK at all. Where is the play set?
I actually don't think they mention where it's set. I had assumed somewhere in the UK as there are mostly English accents along with one Scottish and one South African. Come to think of it, in the discussion on BBC Radio 4 Front Row I think they described it as a 'private hospital' which I would still think makes it UK. I am also mid-thirties and mainly spoke to people up to 10 yrs older and a few years younger than me. Definitely could be a generational thing. I don't get the impression Prof Woolff was lying about being aware of the term as she definitely had the courage of her convictions.
|
|
459 posts
|
Post by drmaplewood on Aug 28, 2019 15:34:38 GMT
Must be heading for a transfer, surely?
|
|
1,114 posts
|
Post by Stephen on Aug 28, 2019 15:42:24 GMT
Must be heading for a transfer, surely? There’s certainly a few options for theatres available in the new year however I don’t know how far ahead shows are booked in before announced. I’d hope that it could go into the Duke of York’s or Pinter. They’re nicely sized for Almeida transfers and have had them before.
|
|
2,389 posts
|
Post by peggs on Aug 28, 2019 21:02:56 GMT
Had avoided reading this thread before going but have now seen the content trigger warning, anyone care to spoiler or DM me any details please, as a squeamish fainter if people talk about that b word am I going to be in trouble?
|
|
833 posts
|
Post by bordeaux on Aug 29, 2019 8:44:27 GMT
I have canvassed quite a lot of people I have come into contact with since I first saw this play a week ago on Friday and not one single person, including myself, was aware of the connotations of this word. I certainly wouldn't consider myself tone deaf, but I would have happily used that word to describe anyone without an iota of knowledge of what I was actually saying, so I can well believe the Doctor was not aware. Like vickyg I also did some canvassing and found it was an ‘age thing’. Those old enough to have seen or lived through the time of In the Heat of the Night and Blazing Saddles made the link but the younger group had no idea. Interesting. The word is used in Blue/Orange by Joe Penhall (2000) in a similar way, I seem to remember, by the younger doctor. I'm in my mid-fifties so the racial connotations were clear to me.
|
|
833 posts
|
Post by bordeaux on Aug 29, 2019 10:22:12 GMT
Is the audience meant to think the academics are as wrong-headed as the Christian campaigner and the pro-lifer? The expressions of irritation or exasperation from the very middle-class middle-aged almost exclusively white audience were the same. It is true that the doctor is made to realise she used a word she shouldn't have but I wasn't entirely sure what Icke was getting at here with regard to identity politics. Is he criticising it, or saying it's gone too far, or both? I simply took it as a way to illustrate the gap between generations. A device to let them face off against each other and provide a forum space for debate - and perhaps a contrast point that a media space has replaced a church space that might have previously served the purpose. would the the doctor, even one brought up in her privileged world, have used that word? not one single person, including myself, was aware of the connotations of this word I knew the word may be used to form a phrase, but had no idea until this play that anyone thought it was racist in common usage. Frankly, given that the play is fiction of course, I'm not sure of the reality anyway. The second word of the phrase I'd never use - nobody in their right mind would - but the first, well, I think I may have to be more careful, I guess; not a problem, but I'm still not actually sure totally when that change happened. Interesting article on the subject from the Atlantic, 2011. It seems the adjective was used, faux-innocently, by extreme right-wingers to describe the Obamas. www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2011/11/yep-uppity-racist/335160/
|
|
2,389 posts
|
Post by peggs on Sept 4, 2019 19:52:36 GMT
Loved it! Left at the end going kinda wow, after enjoying a gut punch reaction to what this play brought up. JS is a dream and what a way for Icke to bow out. Now to go back and read what you all thought.
|
|
Xanderl
Member
Not always very high value in terms of ticket yield or donations
|
Post by Xanderl on Sept 8, 2019 6:54:58 GMT
Thought this was excellent, glad I went into it without knowing much! Felt sorry for the drummer stuck up there on her podium for the whole 3 hours. Wonder if Icke could have taken the concept further and had the Doctor played by Adjoa Andoh, for instance
|
|
|
Post by jennapatchell on Sept 9, 2019 21:57:14 GMT
West End transfer from April I have heard. No theatre decided as of yet.
|
|
2,946 posts
|
Post by crowblack on Sept 9, 2019 22:43:52 GMT
West End transfer from April Hope it tours like Mary Stuart.
|
|
4,631 posts
|
Post by Phantom of London on Sept 10, 2019 0:49:50 GMT
Could be one for the Duke of York or Harold Pinter.
Almeida seem to have a good relationship with ATG.
|
|
|
Post by juicy_but_terribly_drab on Sept 10, 2019 7:52:58 GMT
I hope it does! I'll be trying the lottery again today for one last shot but if it goes anything like last week did (the ticket I tried to put in my basket was snatched up just before me and then any attempt to check other dates was met with an error message) then I'll have to rely on a transfer to see this.
|
|
3,017 posts
Member is Online
|
Post by Rory on Sept 10, 2019 11:18:05 GMT
Despite the discomfort, I think the Trafalgar 1 would be the place for this. It needs a clean, clinical environment to match the design, I feel. It worked well for the transfer of Icke's Oresteia. It depends on who the producer is as it's no longer an ATG theatre and they (Trafalgar Entertainment) seem to programme much of their own stuff now.
|
|
|
Post by vickyg on Sept 11, 2019 11:25:20 GMT
Despite the discomfort, I think the Trafalgar 1 would be the place for this. It needs a clean, clinical environment to match the design, I feel. Noooo! Although you're right that this would be an appropriate venue, I can't stand the proximity to other humans experienced there!
|
|
152 posts
|
Post by alnoor on Sept 12, 2019 13:30:13 GMT
Just returned a £10 row F stalls ticket for Saturday 14/9/19 matinee. Box office have advised they will try and sell it. Putting it here as well in case some one is looking for a ticket Show is sold out Thanks
|
|
2,946 posts
|
Post by crowblack on Sept 13, 2019 10:47:17 GMT
Ria Zmitrowicz just announced headlining the new Lucy Kirkwood alongside previously announced Maxine Peake in January (OMG this sounds brilliant) so I guess if this does transfer it might not be with her.
|
|
3,017 posts
Member is Online
|
Post by Rory on Sept 13, 2019 10:58:12 GMT
Ria Zmitrowicz just announced headlining the new Lucy Kirkwood alongside previously announced Maxine Peake in January (OMG this sounds brilliant) so I guess if this does transfer it might not be with her. Possibly that's why the rumoured transfer is around April maybe.
|
|