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Post by Someone in a tree on Jan 7, 2019 10:12:38 GMT
All of this is wonderful stuff for Norris as it distracts from the terrible programming
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Post by jek on Jan 7, 2019 10:21:21 GMT
As I write this my daughter is at the Barbican Library doing A Level revision. It's a really good spot for her as one of her A Levels is music and the Barbican music library has pretty much any score that she needs to consult. She can also get there from our house door to door by public transport in half an hour. However, a couple of times over this holiday the library has been so crowded (Guildhall students, local residents, A Level students like her) that she has decamped to the Barbican cinema foyer where she can work and get a cup of tea. She says that there is barely anyone in there. Our local library is so full that she would have to be there at opening time to get a seat. Lack of space to study (needed when so many youngsters don't have a private space to study at home) seems to be a bit of an issue.
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Post by viserys on Jan 7, 2019 10:28:14 GMT
I know, very different climate and all that, but they should take a look at the Esplanade - Theatres on the Bay in Singapore, that managed a very successful mix of free public entertainment, accessibility and performing arts for paying customers. On only two days in Singapore I sort of accidentally caught a very beautiful dance performance and an ear-killingly awful Chinese orchestra performing for free. I wouldn't have wanted to hear more of that Chinese orchestra, but might have booked for a full performance of the dance company if I had been in town longer.
It may be a bit more difficult for a theatre mostly dedicated to drama, but surely the NT could come up with some ideas for free public performances, allow some budding musical performers to do small free concerts, lure parents & children with some short drama workshops for kids, whatever.
And yes, the balconies of the NT are a criminal waste. The ground floor as it is now is at least some progress, but I really don't think the NT looks very inviting to all the people walking past along the river.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 7, 2019 10:36:49 GMT
A related note, but when I was at RADA we used to sit in the British Library cafe to have meetings, because there's no space in their buildings and all the surrounding coffee shops were very busy. And yes, the other half of my degree at Kings, we used to scuttle over the river to the RFH or the Nash...that was 10 years ago and those spaces feel far more welcoming now than they did then.
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Post by kathryn on Jan 7, 2019 11:33:13 GMT
And yes, the balconies of the NT are a criminal waste. The ground floor as it is now is at least some progress, but I really don't think the NT looks very inviting to all the people walking past along the river. The balconies (and the skywalks around the Barbican centre) are a failure of post-war planning philosophy that tried to encourage people to ascend from street level, which was supposed to be left for cars and cargo to move efficiently around. We were all going to be walking in the sky..... Of course, this was back when the river was polluted and industrial, and the last thing anyone wanted to do was walk alongside it! There was a rather fascinating talk about this at the NT a couple of years ago by one of the architects involved.
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Post by samuelwhiskers on Jan 7, 2019 11:41:51 GMT
I find this argument bizarre.
The majority of theatres and certainly most West End theatres do not have public spaces, only one or two tiny bars and a foyer which are open to ticket-holders only immediately before a show. Why does anyone care that communal arts buildings exist? If it offends you, just don't go to them. Plenty of alternatives if you're so snobbish you don't want to mix with the great unwashed.
Besides the NT do have a policy that certain areas are only for ticket holders or people buying food in the hour or so before a show.
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Post by viserys on Jan 7, 2019 11:42:24 GMT
Makes sense (on their side) - After reading this discussion I went to take a look at the area on Google Maps/Earth and realized for the first time that there's a nice garden space of sorts on the building next door (Queen Elizabeth Hall?) - I'm not sure if it IS open to the public, but if it is, I have never known of it before. Why not signpost it better, same with at least the biggest NT balcony, put up the lawn chairs there in the summer months, a little mobile café, and it would all be rather lovely. Similarly, until an American friend went to college in London a few years ago and used the Royal Festival Hall's free wifi sometimes, I had no idea that that place was even open for the public (or where the entrance is)... I'm sure that we all here know about the NT being open to the public because we're theatre nerds, but how many people are even aware that the're a good bookshop and cafe inside that's open to everyone?
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Post by kathryn on Jan 7, 2019 12:04:28 GMT
Makes sense (on their side) - After reading this discussion I went to take a look at the area on Google Maps/Earth and realized for the first time that there's a nice garden space of sorts on the building next door (Queen Elizabeth Hall?) - I'm not sure if it IS open to the public, but if it is, I have never known of it before. Why not signpost it better, same with at least the biggest NT balcony, put up the lawn chairs there in the summer months, a little mobile café, and it would all be rather lovely. Similarly, until an American friend went to college in London a few years ago and used the Royal Festival Hall's free wifi sometimes, I had no idea that that place was even open for the public (or where the entrance is)... I'm sure that we all here know about the NT being open to the public because we're theatre nerds, but how many people are even aware that the're a good bookshop and cafe inside that's open to everyone? The skywalks/gardens in the air thing has failed because - no matter how well you signpost it - people just don't look up naturally. We automatically look for routes at ground level. I don't think anyone has quite figured out why, psychologically, we're so resistant to them - but it's a bit like the urge to take a 'shortcut' across a piece of grass even when it's no quicker than walking around the edge. It must be something to do with how we process space, and our mental maps. There are hundreds of examples of the damn things being built - at great expense - and turning out to be expensive white elephants, in cities all over the world. They seem so logical on paper!
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Post by viserys on Jan 7, 2019 12:09:00 GMT
There are hundreds of examples of the damn things being built - at great expense - and turning out to be expensive white elephants, in cities all over the world. They seem so logical on paper! And human laziness? I mean, when I look at a staircase that MIGHT lead me to a nice café or something, my mental reaction is "oof, no", but when I see an escalator, I can be more easily lured to see where it goes (this way I discovered the Wagamama somewhat tucked away in the new mall/accumulation-of-ugly at Victoria Station whe I looked for somewhere to eat before a show at the Other Palace.
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Post by shady23 on Jan 7, 2019 12:13:24 GMT
I was in the National briefly on Saturday and there was an announcement asking for people to vacate certain areas to leave room for those who were coming to the shows.
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Post by BurlyBeaR on Jan 7, 2019 12:38:48 GMT
And then did they chivvy people out by flapping a duster at them and spraying air freshener?
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Post by kathryn on Jan 7, 2019 12:44:45 GMT
There are hundreds of examples of the damn things being built - at great expense - and turning out to be expensive white elephants, in cities all over the world. They seem so logical on paper! And human laziness? I mean, when I look at a staircase that MIGHT lead me to a nice café or something, my mental reaction is "oof, no", but when I see an escalator, I can be more easily lured to see where it goes (this way I discovered the Wagamama somewhat tucked away in the new mall/accumulation-of-ugly at Victoria Station whe I looked for somewhere to eat before a show at the Other Palace. We're all Daleks at heart - can't cope with stairs!
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Post by sf on Jan 7, 2019 13:07:04 GMT
A related note, but when I was at RADA we used to sit in the British Library cafe to have meetings, because there's no space in their buildings and all the surrounding coffee shops were very busy. And yes, the other half of my degree at Kings, we used to scuttle over the river to the RFH or the Nash...that was 10 years ago and those spaces feel far more welcoming now than they did then.
I did that degree myself (part-time, 1995-7). At that time, finding a place quiet enough to have a work-related conversation/meeting in the streets immediately around RADA was mostly a matter of luck, and the area around my workplace wasn't much better (I worked in Covent Garden). Yes, we also used the cafe in the British Museum; from Kings, our venue of choice was the National Film Theatre bar.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 7, 2019 13:21:30 GMT
A related note, but when I was at RADA we used to sit in the British Library cafe to have meetings, because there's no space in their buildings and all the surrounding coffee shops were very busy. And yes, the other half of my degree at Kings, we used to scuttle over the river to the RFH or the Nash...that was 10 years ago and those spaces feel far more welcoming now than they did then.
I did that degree myself (part-time, 1995-7). At that time, finding a place quiet enough to have a work-related conversation/meeting in the streets immediately around RADA was mostly a matter of luck, and the area around my workplace wasn't much better (I worked in Covent Garden). Yes, we also used the cafe in the British Museum; from Kings, our venue of choice was the National Film Theatre bar.
We are going on a tangent now but...my year was the year they reonovated the space that is now the Anatomy Museum into what is now a multi purpose performance and lecture space...however we had 'squatters rights' and as nobody else was using it we got to use it for meetings and working as well. It looks proper swish now.... www.kcl.ac.uk/cultural/-/spaces/anatomymuseum.aspxAdded fun is you could come up in the 'body lift' which was, as suggested the lift they used to use to bring the bodies up in...
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Post by Phantom of London on Jan 7, 2019 13:22:11 GMT
I always assumed and certain I have been told this, that because the National receive public subsidy through the Art Council, it becomes a public building, that the public are free to enter whilst open, However they do not have to provide wi-if.
The South Park is one of the greatest places in London and is now a tourist attraction in itself and is so vibrant now and Ifor one love it, it is in my top 3 places in London now with Covent Garden and Soho. Lambeth and Southwark Council have done a tremendous job in delievering this. How many thousands of tourists walk past dying for pee and not realising they can use clean and free toilets and get a nice substantial meal for £10, also has great meat free dishes.
I would out source the coffee shop to my favourite place in between shows and that’s is Caffè Nero, the problem with the current coffee is that how many of the public realise they can use it and you don’t need to go to the theatre? With a big multi-National company this will break down this barrier and welcome more people.
The National Theatre is a national treasure and should welcome all.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 7, 2019 13:25:40 GMT
Oh I have to disagree on the coffee. Not least because the NT coffee is like crack to me and I will actually riot if they change it.
On a serious note, I don't believe a subsidised building like the NT should outsource it's currently independent (well in-house) coffee shops to a national chain.
That and Nerro Coffee is so weak it can barely be described as coffee. But again that's the coffee snob in me talking.
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Xanderl
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Not always very high value in terms of ticket yield or donations
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Post by Xanderl on Jan 7, 2019 13:27:44 GMT
The balconies (and the skywalks around the Barbican centre) are a failure of post-war planning philosophy that tried to encourage people to ascend from street level, which was supposed to be left for cars and cargo to move efficiently around. We were all going to be walking in the sky..... Of course, this was back when the river was polluted and industrial, and the last thing anyone wanted to do was walk alongside it! There was a rather fascinating talk about this at the NT a couple of years ago by one of the architects involved. There was an interesting article on this in the Guardian last year - www.theguardian.com/cities/2018/oct/02/walkways-in-the-sky-the-return-of-londons-forgotten-pedwayskeep meaning to hunt for the one off Pudding Lane when I'm in the area.
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Post by TallPaul on Jan 7, 2019 13:44:36 GMT
My most recent visit to the National Theatre was in July last year. I walked over Waterloo Bridge and, rather than descending to ground level (or rather riverbank level) I entered straight from the bridge via a walkway.
From what I remember, most of the balconies were being used...by young people, many still in school uniform, rehearsing their various street dance routines.
It would be interesting to know if anyone from either the artistic or marketing teams at the National have ever been outside to talk to them and ask A. If they know what the building is, and B. If they've ever been inside.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 7, 2019 13:58:05 GMT
Not least because the NT coffee is like crack to me and I will actually riot if they change it.
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Post by tmesis on Jan 7, 2019 14:07:54 GMT
Oh I have to disagree on the coffee. Not least because the NT coffee is like crack to me and I will actually riot if they change it. On a serious note, I don't believe a subsidised building like the NT should outsource it's currently independent (well in-house) coffee shops to a national chain. That and Nerro Coffee is so weak it can barely be described as coffee. But again that's the coffee snob in me talking. Totally agree. The Nash does some of the best coffee in London.
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Post by oxfordsimon on Jan 7, 2019 14:15:42 GMT
I think there is a significant difference between having a open door policy to encourage visitors to your foyer space and facilitating an alternative work space/long term hangout spot.
The first I fully support - and that can be encouraged by free exhibitions/performances that reinforce the central aim of the the building - the celebration of great theatre.
I am not as convinced that the foyer space should be used as a place for people to work for a few hours. Fine to pop in and have a meeting or do half an hour on your laptop as you wait for the show to start. But I do not see it is the role of any theatre to provide workspaces for those who want them.
It is a tricky balance - of that there is no doubt.
The new(ish) Weston Library here in Oxford has a fairly decent cafe space in the lobby as well as free exhibition spaces - so it is a very open, welcoming place in that regard. But they also make the cafe a work-free zone - no laptops/tablets permitted. It means that the cafe space has a good turnover of clientele through the day.
A foyer or lobby in a theatre has a primary role - and that is a gathering place for audience members prior to the performances starting, during the interval and then as a post-show gathering spot. Yes, it makes sense to use that space as fully as possible through the entire time that the theatre building is open. But I am not sure encouraging people to use it as an all-day free office space is the best way of doing that.
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Post by Jon on Jan 7, 2019 14:31:31 GMT
Oh I have to disagree on the coffee. Not least because the NT coffee is like crack to me and I will actually riot if they change it. On a serious note, I don't believe a subsidised building like the NT should outsource it's currently independent (well in-house) coffee shops to a national chain. That and Nerro Coffee is so weak it can barely be described as coffee. But again that's the coffee snob in me talking. I don’t mind the Espresso Bar and actually the fact the National keeps it in house rather than outsource it to the likes of Benugo is a good thing
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Post by Someone in a tree on Jan 7, 2019 14:57:08 GMT
Please don’t franchise the Coffee spaces out or in actual fact anything #downwithcapitalism
But please clearly label the walkways so people know about them and use them. The fading yellow line at the Barbican is very good and using something similar at the Southbank & NT could work wonders
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Post by Deleted on Jan 7, 2019 15:27:34 GMT
On a side note, turning lobbies into vibrant public spaces (that also generate revenue) is a big trend among hotels right now.
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Post by Backdrifter on Jan 7, 2019 17:28:17 GMT
I don't believe a subsidised building like the NT should outsource it's currently independent (well in-house) coffee shops to a national chain. That and Nerro Coffee is so weak it can barely be described as coffee. But again that's the coffee snob in me talking. You're not being a "coffee snob". You're being someone who likes coffee to actually taste of, you know, coffee. It's a maverick view I share and it extends to tea as well (which I want to taste like tea, of course). I see people make tea by dipping a tea bag momentarily into hot water then flooding it with so much milk it looks like milk. Obviously fine if that's what you prefer, but.... anyway, never mind. The NT coffee is indeed pretty good and should be kept as it is. This thread is brilliant!
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Post by Backdrifter on Jan 7, 2019 17:43:35 GMT
On a side note, turning lobbies into vibrant public spaces (that also generate revenue) is a big trend among hotels right now. Yes, good point, I have noticed that now you mention it. I wonder if that too is a decision taken by people saturated in middle-class guilt and self-loathing. Those hotels should be careful. Before they know it, freeloading interlopers will establish entire permanent office spaces in those lobbies, complete with allocated workstations, interactive whiteboards and video conferencing, water-cooler gossip sessions, secret santas, appraisals and a weary boss calling people in to sack them. Just like in the NT public spaces, I gather.
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Post by Jon on Jan 7, 2019 17:43:59 GMT
I think there is a significant difference between having a open door policy to encourage visitors to your foyer space and facilitating an alternative work space/long term hangout spot. The first I fully support - and that can be encouraged by free exhibitions/performances that reinforce the central aim of the the building - the celebration of great theatre. I am not as convinced that the foyer space should be used as a place for people to work for a few hours. Fine to pop in and have a meeting or do half an hour on your laptop as you wait for the show to start. But I do not see it is the role of any theatre to provide workspaces for those who want them. It is a tricky balance - of that there is no doubt. The new(ish) Weston Library here in Oxford has a fairly decent cafe space in the lobby as well as free exhibition spaces - so it is a very open, welcoming place in that regard. But they also make the cafe a work-free zone - no laptops/tablets permitted. It means that the cafe space has a good turnover of clientele through the day. A foyer or lobby in a theatre has a primary role - and that is a gathering place for audience members prior to the performances starting, during the interval and then as a post-show gathering spot. Yes, it makes sense to use that space as fully as possible through the entire time that the theatre building is open. But I am not sure encouraging people to use it as an all-day free office space is the best way of doing that. A work free policy might be a solution for the National although very difficult to implement because I'm sure that the creatives probably use the foyers to makes notes and discuss a production which is in previews or upcoming. I alway wondered if the National felt the loss of ITV leaving their HQ nearby as I suspect they likely got a lot of trade for the Espresso Bar, The Understudy or Kitchen from people popping in before shows being recorded or just meetings from companies to commissioners
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Post by oxfordsimon on Jan 7, 2019 18:00:52 GMT
Perhaps one option is to cap internet usage on the free network to a fixed daily amount - that could be a workable compromise to reduce the number of people who might be perceived as overstaying their welcome.
Again, a local example of this is the free wifi provided on the Oxford Tube. That is a capped daily amount (not enough for me to use it on both legs of a return trip in one day)
It would allow for reasonable usage and encourage shorter trips whilst not discouraging occasional, necessary use. Of course, internal users could use their own network.
I don't know how much of an issue working like this is - but it would be a simple and easily enforced solution. It doesn't stop those with their own Mi-fi set ups - but it would be a start
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Post by n1david on Jan 9, 2019 17:16:13 GMT
The majority of theatres and certainly most West End theatres do not have public spaces, only one or two tiny bars and a foyer which are open to ticket-holders only immediately before a show. I see that following the completion of the refurbishment, the Theatre Royal Drury Lane will have public FOH available all day for coffee, drinks, etc. The theatre management seek to make the theatre "a destination venue in its own right." www.thestage.co.uk/news/2019/45m-theatre-royal-drury-lane-refurbishment-to-create-flexible-auditorium/
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Post by sf on Jan 9, 2019 17:49:13 GMT
The majority of theatres and certainly most West End theatres do not have public spaces, only one or two tiny bars and a foyer which are open to ticket-holders only immediately before a show. I see that following the completion of the refurbishment, the Theatre Royal Drury Lane will have public FOH available all day for coffee, drinks, etc. The theatre management seek to make the theatre "a destination venue in its own right." www.thestage.co.uk/news/2019/45m-theatre-royal-drury-lane-refurbishment-to-create-flexible-auditorium/
And this, to tie this to a conversation in another thread, might be a viable location for a pop-up shop along the lines of Dress Circle.
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