1,287 posts
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Post by theatrefan77 on Jun 14, 2021 23:30:25 GMT
I enjoyed this overall, but it works much better onstage than as a film IMHO. The film is about 15 minutes too long and some parts really drag. It does however come alive in the big musical numbers which are brilliantly executed.
The performances are quite good in general, but I didn't felt as involved with the story as when I saw it on stage. It's enjoyable enough, but i don't think it will be a big commercial success.
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5,156 posts
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Post by TallPaul on Jun 15, 2021 8:30:09 GMT
If proof were needed that nobody is safe, Lin-Manuel Miranda has been forced to issue an apology for not casting a sufficiently large number of Afro-Latino actors.
We'll probably soon reach the point when nothing will ever get made.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2021 10:35:43 GMT
If proof were needed that nobody is safe, Lin-Manuel Miranda has been forced to issue an apology for not casting a sufficiently large number of Afro-Latino actors. We'll probably soon reach the point when nothing will ever get made. Why should he be "safe" when it is a legitimate criticism? |
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Post by oxfordsimon on Jun 15, 2021 10:40:34 GMT
This manufactured outrage is killing culture.
LMM has bowed to pressure from a very small number of self-appointed arbiters of what is now appropriate which only gives license to the next group of self-appointed arbiters to make demands about a different project.
In the Heights is not a documentary. It does not set out to show life how it really is for every resident of this particular area. It is a musical. It is fictional. It is art. It is not reality.
How many musicals have there been about this sort of community?
How many films explore life in this area?
Some people are determined not to have a sense of perspective over anything these days and want to tear down others in order to raise their own profile.
This faux outrage is poisoning the arts right now. And much of the fault lies with social media. It gives too many people the idea that their thoughts should be in the public domain. If they had to revert to writing a letter to the editor of a newspaper to make their point, the world would be a better, quieter place.
There are bigger things to protest about that counting the number of people with a certain skin tone in a movie musical.
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Post by danb on Jun 15, 2021 10:57:37 GMT
This stuff needs to stop. I’ve just heard of a whole production being pulled because of a ‘cancelling sting’ like this. There’s more deliberate malevolence going on than cultural ignorance and it needs to stop.
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Post by oxfordsimon on Jun 15, 2021 11:21:51 GMT
If proof were needed that nobody is safe, Lin-Manuel Miranda has been forced to issue an apology for not casting a sufficiently large number of Afro-Latino actors. We'll probably soon reach the point when nothing will ever get made. Why should he be "safe" when it is a legitimate criticism? It is not LMM's job to represent everyone in his work. No-one is saying that he should be exempt from criticism. But no-one should be subject to unfair/unjust attacks from those determined to find fault/feel aggrieved. Just because some on Twitter have opinions doesn't mean they get to dictate how others think or act. |
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4,179 posts
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Post by HereForTheatre on Jun 15, 2021 11:29:12 GMT
Just a heads up to anyone who's not seen it yet, which seems about only 2 percent of the board somehow, if you have a lottery ticket or scratch card or buy one by the weekend you can go to the cinema FREE this weekend. Just Google lottery cinema weekend or something and it will come up with the details. I've done it for Saturday and it didn't cost me a penny, I already get a scratchcard each week anyway.
It can be an old ticket or card you have lying around or if you dont want to buy one and spend that pound then you could ask friends or family for theirs, you just need the ref code from one.
Of course this is for any film not just this and so I'm sure will be of use to all.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2021 11:31:13 GMT
Why should he be "safe" when it is a legitimate criticism? It is not LMM's job to represent everyone in his work. No-one is saying that he should be exempt from criticism. But no-one should be subject to unfair/unjust attacks from those determined to find fault/feel aggrieved. Just because some on Twitter have opinions doesn't mean they get to dictate how others think or act. He chose to apologise, and if that apology is in any way genuine then he recognises the concerns raised are legitimate. That means they are neither unjust nor unfair - it is his work and he is a producer on the film, so although he is not the sole culprit, he is one of them and is probably the one person whose response would be noticed by many. So in that sense he is the right "target". You can of course legitimately question how the concerns are raised - a Twitter mob is not the way to do it. But nor are they dictating, as at the end of the day they could be ignored, and there is a danger that irritation at how concerns are raised is being allowed to get in the way of a legitimate underlying grievance. The fact that LMM responded says it all. |
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4,156 posts
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Post by kathryn on Jun 15, 2021 14:27:29 GMT
Are apologies are the right response to this kind of criticism?
Casting is hard - with the best will in the world you don’t always find the perfect fit to allay every possible criticism.
There are sometimes structural reasons for that outside of any one individual’s or production’s control.
‘I should have done better’ is the PR-friendly response - but was it actually possible to ‘do better’? Would a difference approach to casting have been ‘better’, or merely different - and drawn a whole other set of criticisms? Can LMM actually be personally held responsible for this?
The world is not perfect. Everyone has to make do with the imperfect circumstances they operate within.
There’s a phrase - don’t let perfect be the enemy of the good.
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Post by juicy_but_terribly_drab on Jun 15, 2021 14:37:33 GMT
I read a large thread on this criticism and they were explicit about loving the film but just pointed out that it is part of a larger trend of colourism in media and also including gay characters but making them as minimally visible as possible. No one is cancelling anyone over this. The film has afro-latine representation so it's a legitimate criticism to say that the representation is still lacking in some ways (and the director's previous film got critiqued for its colourism too so it's not like it's been pulled out of nowhere). The same can be said for the inclusion of gay characters and having basically their only moment of explicit romantic affection be a brief scene of them in bed together in the opening montage where their faces are mostly obscured.
If you disagree with the criticism by all means disagree with it, engage with it, but don't act like this is some witch hunt where people are trying to ruin LMM's career, for the vast majority of people they were just pointing out a little problem they had with the film just as so many members of this board have done in this very discussion thread.
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Post by oxfordsimon on Jun 15, 2021 14:39:47 GMT
Of course LMM responded - I would have expected nothing other than that.
This film was made 2 years ago. Casting took in the 8 months before that.
Well before the current sensitivities were at their height.
The better way to have handled this would have been to celebrate the making of this musical whilst expressing hopes that future projects were developed that told the stories of other members of this community. Why must we always seek to tear down?
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Post by juicy_but_terribly_drab on Jun 15, 2021 14:51:46 GMT
Of course LMM responded - I would have expected nothing other than that. This film was made 2 years ago. Casting took in the 8 months before that. Well before the current sensitivities were at their height. The better way to have handled this would have been to celebrate the making of this musical whilst expressing hopes that future projects were developed that told the stories of other members of this community. Why must we always seek to tear down? I mean I haven't looked on every platform but that's mostly what I did see? There's always gonna be reactionary and provocative people looking for an easy jab or something that will get them attention, but you can't just completely write off valid criticism because of that vocal minority, most people providing these critiques are doing from a place of love and hoping that in future the people working on these great projects can improve them even further and avoid the same pitfalls, and I think it's fair enough to listen and respond to them. |
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Post by kathryn on Jun 15, 2021 16:00:19 GMT
I read a large thread on this criticism and they were explicit about loving the film but just pointed out that it is part of a larger trend of colourism in media and also including gay characters but making them as minimally visible as possible. No one is cancelling anyone over this. The film has afro-latine representation so it's a legitimate criticism to say that the representation is still lacking in some ways (and the director's previous film got critiqued for its colourism too so it's not like it's been pulled out of nowhere). The same can be said for the inclusion of gay characters and having basically their only moment of explicit romantic affection be a brief scene of them in bed together in the opening montage where their faces are mostly obscured. If you disagree with the criticism by all means disagree with it, engage with it, but don't act like this is some witch hunt where people are trying to ruin LMM's career, for the vast majority of people they were just pointing out a little problem they had with the film just as so many members of this board have done in this very discussion thread. I think I’m particularly wary because of the way I’ve seen it play out in the book world - particularly the YA lit world. Books really have been cancelled, i.e. not published, based on campaigns by a small very vocal contingent of critics. And sometimes it’s the authors themselves who decided that was the best course to take is response to being personally attacked. I think we need a different way of discussing this kind of criticism that is less about casting blame. The idea that this is a personal failing of the director because the same criticism was levelled at this prior film ignores the fact that the same combination of structural factors could be at play for both films. It can be the case that LMM’s apology and statement makes no difference at all, because it’s simply not in his personal control to effect the sort of changes needed. |
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Post by Jon on Jun 15, 2021 20:24:19 GMT
Just a heads up to anyone who's not seen it yet, which seems about only 2 percent of the board somehow, if you have a lottery ticket or scratch card or buy one by the weekend you can go to the cinema FREE this weekend. Just Google lottery cinema weekend or something and it will come up with the details. I've done it for Saturday and it didn't cost me a penny, I already get a scratchcard each week anyway. It can be an old ticket or card you have lying around or if you dont want to buy one and spend that pound then you could ask friends or family for theirs, you just need the ref code from one. Of course this is for any film not just this and so I'm sure will be of use to all. I've booked to see ITH at Picturehouse Central with a friend, I used a previous Lottery ticket I did online which was about 2 quid and then I had to pay booking fees of £1.40 but TBH considering how expensive PHC is, to only pay £1.70 per person is an absolute steal. |
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Post by Dawnstar on Jun 15, 2021 20:41:01 GMT
I think I’m particularly wary because of the way I’ve seen it play out in the book world - particularly the YA lit world. Books really have been cancelled, i.e. not published, based on campaigns by a small very vocal contingent of critics. And sometimes it’s the authors themselves who decided that was the best course to take is response to being personally attacked. So people are campaigning for a book not to be published before they've read it? How can they decide it's not "suitable" based on the title & a synopsis?!
(Recently I've been re-reading some Angela Brazil school stories from the 1920s-40s. I would love to see the reaction of the cancellation brigade to them!) |
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Post by dontdreamit on Jun 15, 2021 22:17:26 GMT
Just a heads up to anyone who's not seen it yet, which seems about only 2 percent of the board somehow, if you have a lottery ticket or scratch card or buy one by the weekend you can go to the cinema FREE this weekend. Just Google lottery cinema weekend or something and it will come up with the details. I've done it for Saturday and it didn't cost me a penny, I already get a scratchcard each week anyway. It can be an old ticket or card you have lying around or if you dont want to buy one and spend that pound then you could ask friends or family for theirs, you just need the ref code from one. Of course this is for any film not just this and so I'm sure will be of use to all. Thank you so much! I’ve just booked for eldest abs me to see this now for free on Sunday 🙂 |
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Post by alicechallice on Jun 16, 2021 6:12:25 GMT
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4,156 posts
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Post by kathryn on Jun 16, 2021 11:55:03 GMT
I think I’m particularly wary because of the way I’ve seen it play out in the book world - particularly the YA lit world. Books really have been cancelled, i.e. not published, based on campaigns by a small very vocal contingent of critics. And sometimes it’s the authors themselves who decided that was the best course to take is response to being personally attacked. So people are campaigning for a book not to be published before they've read it? How can they decide it's not "suitable" based on the title & a synopsis?!
(Recently I've been re-reading some Angela Brazil school stories from the 1920s-40s. I would love to see the reaction of the cancellation brigade to them!) Publishers send out copies early for review - so these campaigns get started by reviewers. There’s significant overlap between reviewing and writing, or aspiring to write, and it’s a very small community - there are definitely times when the reviewers who start the cancellation campaign appear to have a personal axe to grind. |
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Post by steve10086 on Jun 16, 2021 12:02:48 GMT
Just a heads up to anyone who's not seen it yet, which seems about only 2 percent of the board somehow, if you have a lottery ticket or scratch card or buy one by the weekend you can go to the cinema FREE this weekend. Just Google lottery cinema weekend or something and it will come up with the details. I've done it for Saturday and it didn't cost me a penny, I already get a scratchcard each week anyway. It can be an old ticket or card you have lying around or if you dont want to buy one and spend that pound then you could ask friends or family for theirs, you just need the ref code from one. Of course this is for any film not just this and so I'm sure will be of use to all. Thanks so much! Had to pay £2.50 per ticket as we’ve booked an O2 “superscreen”, so £5 paid for about £30 worth of tickets - awesome! |
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Post by Dawnstar on Jun 16, 2021 12:31:36 GMT
Publishers send out copies early for review - so these campaigns get started by reviewers. There’s significant overlap between reviewing and writing, or aspiring to write, and it’s a very small community - there are definitely times when the reviewers who start the cancellation campaign appear to have a personal axe to grind. How depressing. You would think the publishers would re-think their reviewing policy if some reviewers are acting in such a destructive manner. |
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1,103 posts
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Post by alicechallice on Jun 17, 2021 6:23:17 GMT
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4,156 posts
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Post by kathryn on Jun 17, 2021 8:15:34 GMT
Sad news that the film is not only underperforming at the USA box office ($11.4 million) opening weekend but also on HBOMAX which is surprising as generally the critics have been very positive about the movie and it is currently 95% "good" on Rotten Tomatoes audience ratings. The glimmer of hope is "The Greatest Showman" did not do well either on its opening weekend ($9 million) but ended up taking $435 million worldwide and becoming the fifth highest grossing live action musical of all time. The Greatest Showman was a real fluke, not likely to be repeated. In The Heights has no ‘stars’ and no big break-out songs like ‘This is Me’. And I cannot honestly see many people getting drunk or high and going along to In The Heights with their mates for a singalong. It’s just not that kind of musical. |
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Post by viserys on Jun 17, 2021 8:25:00 GMT
I saw In the Heights on Broadway and I never really understood the appeal beyond the fact that it celebrates the Latin community and utilizes Latin music styles. The story just isn't very interesting. It's mostly fluff and whatever problems are brought up rarely gain any depth or drama. The movie has tried to bring more politics into it, but didn't really dare to dig deep. And if there's no stakes for the characters, what interest does it have for the audience?
The Greatest Showman had the classical "rags to riches" story as it showed Barnum's rise to the top of the entertainment world, we were there for him to make it to the top and there were plenty of interesting subplots and characters to engage us.
Same with Jon Chu's previous work Crazy Rich Asians, which has some similarities with the In the Heights movie - but there was also a deep engaging conflict at the bottom, that of the newly arrived American "intruder" into the deeply entrenched chinese-Singaporean society and we rooted for her to make it and win her guy, but ALSO understood the guy's hostile mother.
I'd still like to see In the Heights on the big screen to enjoy the big choreographies but I'm not surprised that it's not a big success and I think the current controversy isn't helping because so many people are sick to the teeth of virtually everything causing "outrage" these days and it just makes them turn away at this point.
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Post by MrBraithwaite on Jun 17, 2021 12:11:22 GMT
No interest in ITH or LMM at all...him making an apology seems nice, but nowadays it's just feeding the trolls I'm afraid. The real problem is, that media outlets pick it up when three people on Twitter complain...makes a story and so someone else is asked to comment, more stories...about absolutely nothing. And I highly doubt that this issue has anything to do with the weak box office, but media link it to make another story, accusations and bad box-office...and so it goes on. The times we live in.  |
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Post by steve10086 on Jun 19, 2021 15:02:43 GMT
I loved absolutely everything about that film.
Just a perfect movie musical. No stupid on-set live singing. Massive choreographed dance numbers. Fantasy sequences. Added to a immensely talented cast, and all building from the starting point of quality well written songs.
Loved it.
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