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Post by aloneandloveless on Mar 11, 2016 11:49:36 GMT
Come on, it's not like it's just a handful of people on this board going "haha, won't we sound EDGY if we accuse Miss Saigon of being racist?", people have been protesting the show since the get-go: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miss_Saigon#Controversies You really want to be the one to accuse people of not being aware of history?  You know a show will be somewhat dated or is going to offend people if it has a whole "Controversies" section on Wikipedia. Unless it's something like Evita, where it's very controversial that a show of such mammoth mediocrity could keep getting revived. |
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Post by ptwest on Mar 11, 2016 12:23:09 GMT
Another vote for Cats - went to see it in the late 80s with very high expectations and was bored silly. It really didn't help that the actress at the time playing Grizabella seemed to be playing it like Tina Turner at her most overwrought. However, I thought I must have missed something as everyone else raved about it so I went back a few years later and it was no better.
I have to add to the voices about Miss Saigon - there are some glorious tunes in the score, and act one is fabulous. I have a real problem with act 2 - I think for me it is the fact that the focus is taken away from Kim - and the whole hotel room scene with Chris, Ellen and John is just bad. I have such great memories of seeing Lea Salonga and later Joanna Ampil as Kim that I couldn't wait to see the most recent revival. I ended up quite wishing I had left at the interval. Maybe I have become more discerning as I have got older, or the faults weren't as apparent in the original show.
There are other shows that I have seen that are much worse in my opinion than the two mentioned, but these are the ones that were the most hyped. A lot of them are about time and place I think, for example, Phantom absolutely blew me away when I saw it in the 80s, but then the technology was cutting edge and I had never seen anything like it. Having gone back more recently with all the theatre going experience I have had in between, the flaws are much more apparent.
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Post by couldileaveyou on Mar 11, 2016 14:18:00 GMT
You can't really compare Miss Saigon to Madama Butterfly because, although the story is basically the same, their composers had quite different ways to experience Japan/Vietnam. Puccini wrote Butterfly at the end of 19th Century, when going from Italy to Asia was still a complicated business if you weren't a trader. Also, Puccini wasn't rich or particularly successful at the time, so he couldn't afford to travel. The only way he could learn something about Japan was reading stuff other people wrote, stuff that was probably biased and racist as well. Puccini's view of Japan was second (if not third or fourth) hand and for him Japan was almost as inaccessible as the moon. We can't say the same about Miss Saigon's writers, who could have relied on true experts on the subject or even go to Vietnam themselves. Puccini's mistake is due to ignorance, schönberg and boublil's to laziness. Even not including the sexualisation of Asian women, Miss Saigon presents several racist stereotypes, like the absurd Ho Chi Minh parade with acrobats or the making up of "Vietnamese" words... honestly, how hard must have been for them to simply ask to a Vietnamese? The total lack of respect for the Vietnamese culture is what makes Miss Saigon racist, not the plot it inheredited from Puccini
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Post by Dave25 on Mar 11, 2016 16:42:52 GMT
"Dju vui vay, yu doi my, dju vui vay, vao nyay moy" Actually, it is Vietnamese. It means "Lend me your time, we are together now, I am happy to borrow it". And yes, a Vietnamese character, the heroine of the show, portrayed as a strong, kind hearted, fighting like a lioness, noble woman, is very respectful. What more would you like to see? I think exposing the situation that was, telling the story, including traditions, is the opposite of racism. Those people complaining in the 80's changed their mind after actually seeing the show. And of course, the truth was probably even worse, like how women were treated etc, but they had to tone it down because the truth is too offensive for some people nowadays. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 11, 2016 17:11:18 GMT
Gypsy.
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Post by couldileaveyou on Mar 11, 2016 20:25:33 GMT
I asked to several Vietnameses, including my best friend, and they all told me it's gibberish.
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573 posts
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Post by Dave25 on Mar 11, 2016 20:26:59 GMT
Well, every translator will tell you the truth.
So your friends are basically talking rubbish.
You might have to find something else in the show to be offended about now.
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Post by couldileaveyou on Mar 11, 2016 20:30:27 GMT
Well, every translator will tell you the truth. So your friends are basically talking rubbish. You might have to find something else in the show to be offended about now. That's not hard |
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573 posts
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Post by Dave25 on Mar 11, 2016 20:34:12 GMT
I guess it's true what they say, "if there is a will, there is a way".
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Post by Deleted on Mar 11, 2016 20:37:43 GMT
I haven't seen it yet, but I get a feeling Hamilton is very overrated. And I worry about going in London because I fear it will not live up to the hype.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 11, 2016 22:27:07 GMT
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Post by BurlyBeaR on Mar 11, 2016 22:56:26 GMT
I reckon we've heard both sides of the Miss Saigon discussion more than once now. Shall we agree to differ and move along?
Overrated: Mamma Mia.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 12, 2016 8:31:25 GMT
Spring Awakening didn't hit the spot for me.
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Post by orchestrator on Mar 12, 2016 20:23:12 GMT
You are welcome to turn two blind eyes to the racism and sexism of the show, just as everyone here is welcome to love and enjoy their favorite shows, but that gives you no right to insult others. I'm done talking about Miss Saigon and I'm out of this discussion. Good, you are welcome to turn a blind eye on history. Non sequitur. |
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Post by anthony40 on Mar 12, 2016 20:50:16 GMT
1. Anything with music by Stephen Sondheim (except Sweeney Todd). 2. Rent. 3. Grand Hotel - how anyone could enjoy anything about it is beyond me. 4. The Last Five Years. 5. Gypsy - which I enjoyed very much, but not as much as the hype and awards would suggest. I respect your opinion but Joseph Buquet you are driving a stake through my heart |
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Post by anthony40 on Mar 12, 2016 20:51:46 GMT
Once - a terribly bland musical with a lot of hype surrounding it. And possibly one of the most sleepy scores I've ever had the misfortune of sitting through. Tom89 I respect your opinion but you are driving a stake through my heart |
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Post by ali973 on Mar 12, 2016 20:53:57 GMT
I never cared for the score of Once, but seeing it in the theatre was rather special. It was actually very beautiful and poignant. I can't say I enjoyed the score during the show either (sans Falling Slowly, which is very pretty). I pretty much thought of it as a play with music rather than a musical.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 13, 2016 0:02:55 GMT
I could never have a conversation face to face with some people about this kinda topic haha, I get the feeling I would slap some of you stupid lol!
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Post by primitivewallflower on Mar 13, 2016 4:18:32 GMT
THE PRODUCERS: The movie is hilarious, but the stage version, while funny, is bland and utterly forgettable.
PHANTOM: I'm not an ALW-hater -- Evita and Joseph are two of my favorites and while Cats is not my cup of tea I respect the risk-taking -- but a giant chandelier can't cover up poor writing and power ballad overdose.
RENT: I loved it when I was teenager. Now I watch it and I cringe. To be fair, time has not been kind, and despite its flaws it is still clearly the product of a talented mind. BUT... 1) there is exactly one likable character (who dies); 2) everyone else is either selfish, spoiled, or both; 3) Act II, other than Seasons of Love, completely falls apart, especially 4) one of the worst musical endings ever; and 5) it's just too self-consciously cool.
The best thing to say about Rent is that it drew my generation into theater. But HAMILTON is doing that for young people now and it's a much better show.
WEST SIDE STORY: I'm not going to get a lot of huzzahs on this one but I'll just say it: West Side Story has one of the worst books of any major musical. Cringe-worthy. That's not enough to sink it -- the songs are truly excellent and the movie version even managed to make "America" profound -- but musicals have to deliver both the sung and spoken word.
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Post by Kenneth_C on Mar 13, 2016 7:27:07 GMT
DISCLAIMER: I hate topics like "Most Overrated" etc., because it presumes that YOUR OPINION matters more than anyone else's. (100,000 people LOVE something, but you're the ONLY PERSON who sees it for the dreck it really is.) However, it's nice to see many people in this thread have included statements like "It didn't work for me" or "I personally...." in their remarks. So, congrats on that. (Otherwise, I'd think some of you were bonkers.) Finally, just listing titles doesn't cut it. You should make a comment or two, at least. And so, with that in mind, I dive in:
THE SOUND OF MUSIC -- The movie is OK, but it wasn't until recently that I saw a production of the stage version. Wow. Let's just say that my appreciation for Ernest Lehman (adapter/screenwriter for the film) went up immeasurably. Talk about making a silk purse out of a sow's ear...
BILLY ELLIOT -- I'm a fan of the film. To this day, I'm still trying to figure out why I felt so completely unengaged by the stage musical.
ONCE -- Another film I like, but the stage version was about as exciting as watching paint dry for 3 hours. Yawn....
Speaking of paint drying: THE LION KING -- After "Circle of Life" and one or two other numbers, the show has pretty much shot its wad. What you're left with is a 90-minute animated film that has been blown up out of all proportion to twice its length. (I even saw it twice -- a dozen years apart -- to see if my initial reaction still held. It did.)
While we're on the subject of Disney: MARY POPPINS -- I love the movie, and pretty much hated the stage version. A major disappointment for me. (Please, don't give me that stuff about it being closer to Travers' vision. I've read the books, too, and still find the stage musical completely underwhelming.)
WICKED -- Another show I've visited more than once over the years. I actually like the first act. But the second? Ugh. As it tries to warp itself into some semblance of the story we know from THE WIZARD OF OZ, it collapses. Lackluster songs and re-visited sets don't help matters at all.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 13, 2016 10:04:49 GMT
Once - a terribly bland musical with a lot of hype surrounding it. And possibly one of the most sleepy scores I've ever had the misfortune of sitting through. Tom89 I respect your opinion but you are driving a stake through my heart Apologies! I can see that it has it's fan base, but it was a very different kind of musical than I've seen before. Maybe it's just the type of music that doesn't appeal to me. Alas we did miss the first ten minutes so that probably impacted in my experience too. No offence meant, honestly. |
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Post by anthony40 on Mar 13, 2016 10:31:25 GMT
Tom89 I respect your opinion but you are driving a stake through my heart Apologies! I can see that it has it's fan base, but it was a very different kind of musical than I've seen before. Maybe it's just the type of music that doesn't appeal to me. Alas we did miss the first ten minutes so that probably impacted in my experience too. No offence meant, honestly. I'm sure mate. For what its worth, I'm still breathing and haven't died quite yet. Lol! |
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Post by mrtumnus on Mar 13, 2016 18:13:14 GMT
West Side Story --- by a mile.
Two tough gangs prancing about on stage. The most repetitive song in musical theatre history.
Chorus Line
A bit of masking tape as a set. 2 1/2 hour wait for a decent song and dance number.
Chicago
Stupidest storyline every, but decent music. Should have stuck with the CD.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 13, 2016 18:28:02 GMT
Am I allowed to nominate Hamilton, even though it hasn't arrived here (yet) and I haven't seen it? (I did see its sister, In the Heights, and found it SO overrated...) Have already heard enough about Hamilton to reckon it's completetly overrated!
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Post by Dave25 on Mar 13, 2016 23:30:05 GMT
I agree about Hamilton. The cast recording is just a boring travesty.
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