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Post by Deleted on Oct 30, 2017 10:17:49 GMT
That is what he is saying, but I will bet you any amount of money you like that the sort of people who believe it is possible to "pray away the gay" will not be hearing it that way. Have you ever considered *not* playing devil's advocate for once? The post which I quoted appeared not to hear it that way, I assume honestly. I was trying to steer the discussion back to reality. As you say, and as I said yeaterday, the main issue is quite serious enough to be discussed accurately and I feel that it's unhelpful to exaggerate it or to introduce inaccuracies. Passive aggressive 'the post I quoted from' FFS. Grow up. I refuse to engage in this element of the conversation any longer because the real story is the abuse Anthony Rapp experienced. I'm not writing 'allegedly' that time: I believe Rapp unreservedly. And I refuse to engage with people playing Spacey's own game of deflecting the allegations elsewhere.
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Post by Dave25 on Oct 30, 2017 10:51:10 GMT
"But as Spacey's star began to rise through the 1990s and 2000s — including a Tony Award, two Oscars, a decadelong run as the creative director of the Old Vic theater in London, and six seasons and counting on the hit Netflix series House of Cards — Rapp's frustration, anger with him grew as well."
If someone's career is in any way a trigger to get frustrated, like it wouldn't have grown had he been a nobody, there is more going on than just the incident.
Also, wouldn't it be more classy to give Kevin a phone call and ask him in person why he has done this terrbible thing that has upset him for all these years and what he himself has to say about it, instead of doing this in a public tweet/press release?
We are talking about a single drunk incident more than 30 years ago here. He could have asked him about it for all these years.
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Post by vdcni on Oct 30, 2017 10:56:29 GMT
Yes how dare he not think about the poor man who tried to sexually assault him while he was 14! What a bastard!
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Post by Dave25 on Oct 30, 2017 10:57:59 GMT
Also, are you (HG)... are you trying to deflect the conversation away from the real news, which is that a much-whispered-about man has been thoroughly accused by a source with all apparent reputability of sexually predatory behaviour, by getting bogged down by the ins and outs of discussing Spacey's sexuality instead? THAT'S WHAT HE *WANTED*, YOU PATSY. I think Spacey's statement makes it worse. Now his "coming out" statement will forever be linked with approaching a minor. I think it would have been better for him if he handled both things separately.
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Post by Dave25 on Oct 30, 2017 11:00:13 GMT
Yes how dare he not think about the poor man who tried to sexually assault him while he was 14! What a bastard! It seems he has thought about him for more than 30 years but never picked up the phone. A well organized public press release at the height of the man's career was clearly the only option.
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Post by duncan on Oct 30, 2017 11:04:06 GMT
Spacey has been handling young men for years, it would have been better for him if he hadn't.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 30, 2017 11:05:06 GMT
Also, are you (HG)... are you trying to deflect the conversation away from the real news, which is that a much-whispered-about man has been thoroughly accused by a source with all apparent reputability of sexually predatory behaviour, by getting bogged down by the ins and outs of discussing Spacey's sexuality instead? THAT'S WHAT HE *WANTED*, YOU PATSY. I think Spacey's statement makes it worse. Now his "coming out" statement will forever be linked with approaching a minor. I think it would have been better for him if he handled both things separately. I love it when a man feels the need to repeat the EXACT thing a woman has just said because they can obviously say it better. Meanwhile it's insulting to suggest that Rapp or anyone should just 'pick up the phone' and have a chat with someone who assaulted them. And the only thing that Rapp's current platform with Star Trek does is give him a chance to be listened to where other actors might not. He's not using this for fame or personal gain- the man has worked almost constantly since he was a child actor, was one of the original cast in one of the most successful Broadway musicals of all time. He's not a young fame seeker, he's a long term working actor using his own security and platform to speak out where others might not be able to.
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Post by theatremadness on Oct 30, 2017 11:11:13 GMT
Yes how dare he not think about the poor man who tried to sexually assault him while he was 14! What a bastard! It seems he has thought about him for more than 30 years but never picked up the phone. A well organized public press release at the height of the man's career was clearly the only option. Yeah, why doesn't he just give his alleged sexual assaulter a ring for a chat? Maybe ask him round for some tea and cake? You clearly haven't read the article which emicardiff posted - I strongly recommend you do, though I doubt it would make much of a difference to your way of thinking. A highly public interview at this moment in time was obviously the best way for Rapp to get his voice heard. If you think for one second that Spacey deserves some sort of privacy or private moment to deal with the allegations then that is seriously worrying. He deserves nothing. Especially after his particularly harmful statement. I hope and pray that you have not had to experience any unwanted sexual advances when you were a minor, because for you to be be giving tips to a victim on how they should be dealing with the pain, suffering and bottled emotions without any idea how it must feel to have to carry those feelings around with you for 3 decades is mind-boggling beyond belief and I almost think you might be trolling us all.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 30, 2017 11:17:37 GMT
Also I have to say, the comments Rapp makes about watching Spacey's rise to fame really hit home. We've all had that feeling where we see someone who has done us wrong getting something good happen- and that hurts, and if they're a bad person but nobody else seems to see it, that hurts. Imagine now someone who assaulted or abused you rising to that level of prominence, and feeling like you can't say anything. Seeing the world fawning over that man, knowing what they did. It makes me sick thinking about it.
And I'm bloody angry. I'm angry as a member of the LGBT community that Spacey thinks coming out is a suitable cover story. That he can erase all the brave coming out others have done. And I'm angry for Rapp that he's had to live with this and for everyone else we've heard the Spacey stories about.
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Post by foxa on Oct 30, 2017 11:32:19 GMT
I would be very surprised if more stories like this don't come out. I can totally understand why Rapp didn't give Spacey a call. I never called any of those men who exposed themselves to me - but then I didn't have to watch them on tv all the time, so I could just imagine their sad pathetic lives as being a punishment for their actions - whether or not that was the case. On an adjacent point: this is an excerpt from a Salon article discussing some issues that have come up in this thread: 'I also have friends who self-identify as "men's rights activists," insisting that men are persecuted as much or even more than women. Even among the male friends who don't align themselves entirely with the MRA movement, there are still many who subscribe to what I call the male victimization fallacy. They view themselves as victims, feel threatened when confronted with the fact that women face more systemic oppression than men (which is not to say that men don't suffer at all, just that our society is inherently patriarchal) and try to blur, diminish or outright deny feminist concerns in order to shore up their own status of victimhood. Not coincidentally, these are usually the same men who claim that feminists just want to be victims. They do this by projecting their own assumption that victimhood is some kind of finite commodity — one they seek for themselves at the expense of others — and ignore that the term refers to real-life suffering and persecution.' This is the whole article (the title isn't great, but there are some good points): www.salon.com/2017/10/29/listen-up-men-we-must-shun-our-sexist-friends/One of the points he makes is how important it is for men to speak in a sensitive and nuanced way about what happens to women and to confront those who are misogynistic - and thank you to the many on this forum who do that.
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Post by foxa on Oct 30, 2017 11:39:26 GMT
Edited to make a correction: Sorry - I wrote 'she makes' originally - the person who shared the article with me originally is a woman, but the article is written by a man.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 30, 2017 11:44:13 GMT
What is disgusting is that people like Spacey are given posts like AD of The Old Vic
They are given positions of artistic responsibility
He is a truly pathetic person
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Post by Deleted on Oct 30, 2017 11:46:02 GMT
"But as Spacey's star began to rise through the 1990s and 2000s — including a Tony Award, two Oscars, a decadelong run as the creative director of the Old Vic theater in London, and six seasons and counting on the hit Netflix series House of Cards — Rapp's frustration, anger with him grew as well." If someone's career is in any way a trigger to get frustrated, like it wouldn't have grown had he been a nobody, there is more going on than just the incident. Also, wouldn't it be more classy to give Kevin a phone call and ask him in person why he has done this terrbible thing that has upset him for all these years and what he himself has to say about it, instead of doing this in a public tweet/press release? We are talking about a single drunk incident more than 30 years ago here. He could have asked him about it for all these years. Yes Because things like that usually only happen once And then never again
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Post by Deleted on Oct 30, 2017 11:46:38 GMT
I do wonder if there is an argument for some sort of chemical castration to be applied more widely
So many people cannot control themselves
It may be the way to go
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Xanderl
Member
Not always very high value in terms of ticket yield or donations
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Post by Xanderl on Oct 30, 2017 12:11:51 GMT
Dave25, while you're here could you get back to me on this please? Dave, please provide links to - the dinner date story - the shampoo commercial (or the name of the product, the one you name doesn't exist) - the facebook post about the dentist. At least we will then have some context for your rather disturbing posts.
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Post by wickedgrin on Oct 30, 2017 12:30:18 GMT
I offered a seat to man much older than me who seemed tired and he took it, but looked a bit depressed so I wasn't sure I'd really helped. On a slightly lighter note....I was on the tube the other day when a young man offered me his seat. Now, as I am old I was extremely touched by this - it is the first time it has happened, but it depressed me as well in that I must have looked terrible for him to offer!! For the record I did refuse - I can manage to stand for a few stops!!
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Post by Dave25 on Oct 30, 2017 12:34:08 GMT
Dave25, while you're here could you get back to me on this please? Dave, please provide links to - the dinner date story - the shampoo commercial (or the name of the product, the one you name doesn't exist) - the facebook post about the dentist. At least we will then have some context for your rather disturbing posts. Oh, sure! I can't find the FB dentist post but it was going viral everywhere, and the reactions of women were extremely objectifying, explicit and rude. The dinner date story was spoken on tv in a program called RTL Boulevard. Here is the link to the commercial. It might seem innocent, but it shows exactly how men are being treated these days, and they all should brush it off as some kind of "male fantasy", of women in empowerment. Because there is a huge double standard and for men to be relevant it's either how hot looking you are or how rich you are. Women are projecting like crazy. If you pay attention to this in any reaction on a picture on FB or situation anywhere else you will notice this. I have been in situations with women in my teenage years where anyone else would have felt very intimidated. Now I'm older and it's still all about sex and money. And it depends whether I can provide it how I am being treated. About Rapp, I think this is a very personal issue, and a good conversation with the abuser can clear a lot. I understand that is not easy for a 14 year old, but it is for a 47 year old with some character. Organizing a press conference is all great, but I wonder when the most important thing is going to happen and he actually speaks to him.
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Post by Dave25 on Oct 30, 2017 12:39:29 GMT
I offered a seat to man much older than me who seemed tired and he took it, but looked a bit depressed so I wasn't sure I'd really helped. On a slightly lighter note....I was on the tube the other day when a young man offered me his seat. Now, as I am old I was extremely touched by this - it is the first time it has happened, but it depressed me as well in that I must have looked terrible for him to offer!! For the record I did refuse - I can manage to stand for a few stops!! That's very sweet. And yet, some people are even actually really intimidated by that. Beinig intimidated glides from a scale from 1 to a million and it differs for everyone, so erasing everything one can be intimidated by is impossible. I have been in many situations where I chose not to be intimidated and handle things my own way. Even though some of the situations were not nice. Sometimes I did not get my way but realized I did not want to work with that person anyway, other times I weighed my choice and decided how far I was willing to go and made a choice, other times I said something there or later and other times I chose to get the person back in another way. That's life.
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Post by jadnoop on Oct 30, 2017 12:43:54 GMT
Dave25, while you're here could you get back to me on this please? Dave, please provide links to - the dinner date story - the shampoo commercial (or the name of the product, the one you name doesn't exist) - the facebook post about the dentist. At least we will then have some context for your rather disturbing posts. For what it's worth, I don't think it really matters even if a few examples like these come up. After all, the fact that a few instances exist doesn't really mean anything when it comes to the wider context of society as a whole. If you look hard enough I'm sure it's possible to find a few examples that lines up with just about any world view. Anecdotal evidence is certainly important in shaping how we each interpret the world, but it can't really be relied upon: A newspaper article about a single 'benefits scrounger' might be an exciting & emotional read, but it's basically irrelevant as a way of judging how well or poorly the benefits system is working as a whole. There are always outliers on any distribution, and while they make the most exciting stories, they don't necessarily reflect the trend as a whole. As the old adage goes, "one death is a tragedy, a million is a stastistic".
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Post by theatremadness on Oct 30, 2017 12:50:06 GMT
Dave25, while you're here could you get back to me on this please? About Rapp, I think this is a very personal issue, and a good conversation with the abuser can clear a lot. I understand that is not easy for a 14 year old, but it is for a 47 year old with some character. Organizing a press conference is all great, but I wonder when the most important thing is going to happen and he actually speaks to him. I simply cannot believe that in your heart of hearts, you seriously think that 1) the pain of abuse gets easier as you get older and 2) this can all be cleared with "a good conversation with the abuser"!!!!!!!!! This is a parody account, surely?!
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Post by Dave25 on Oct 30, 2017 12:50:25 GMT
For what it's worth, I don't think it really matters even if a few examples like these come up. After all, the fact that a few instances exist doesn't really mean anything when it comes to the wider context of society as a whole. If you look hard enough I'm sure it's possible to find a few examples that lines up with just about any world view.". But it does show what is socially accepted, in commercials etc. And how 1 sided it all is. Nowadays men are objectified more than ever before. And worse, they are not allowed to say anything about it. They are being silenced. A very convenient way to use men exactly how you want them to be and only that.
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Post by theatremadness on Oct 30, 2017 12:52:50 GMT
For what it's worth, I don't think it really matters even if a few examples like these come up. After all, the fact that a few instances exist doesn't really mean anything when it comes to the wider context of society as a whole. If you look hard enough I'm sure it's possible to find a few examples that lines up with just about any world view.". Nowadays men are objectified more than ever before. And worse, they are not allowed to say anything about it. They are being silenced. Ah, so now you know how women feel. And how what you're doing is exactly that. Besides all that, I don't believe the second part of your statement at all, based on what I've seen.
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Post by Dave25 on Oct 30, 2017 12:53:11 GMT
About Rapp, I think this is a very personal issue, and a good conversation with the abuser can clear a lot. I understand that is not easy for a 14 year old, but it is for a 47 year old with some character. Organizing a press conference is all great, but I wonder when the most important thing is going to happen and he actually speaks to him. I simply cannot believe that in your heart of hearts, you seriously think that 1) the pain of abuse gets easier as you get older and 2) this can all be cleared with "a good conversation with the abuser"!!!!!!!!! This is a parody account, surely?! What's your solution? Not talking with the person, just shouting in the press? Are you a parody? We are talking about a grown middle aged men here, that needs to have enough personality to talk about something that happened to him as a kid. He was approached and said no and nothing sexual did happen. Yes, Spacey was wrong with the approach, so talk to him and ask him what was going on in his mind. If you care to know that is....
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Post by Dave25 on Oct 30, 2017 12:55:56 GMT
Nowadays men are objectified more than ever before. And worse, they are not allowed to say anything about it. They are being silenced. Ah, so now you know how women feel. And how what you're doing is exactly that. Besides all that, I don't believe the second part of your statement at all, based on what I've seen. I wish I knew how it felt to have an understanding platform like that and not being brushed aside by "shut up, any male would be happy with attention from women". And being able to silence the other sexe, and only being judged by sexiness or money. So no, it's hard to imagine.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 30, 2017 13:00:46 GMT
What's shocking and quite frankly disgusting about the Spacey story (other than the actual Anthony Rapp story itself, 14? Drunk or not, that should be career ending right there.) is that Spacey has tied his bizarre statement to his 'coming out'. Presumably so that this becomes the talking point and not the allegation and presumably so any criticism can be claimed as 'discrimination' or 'anti-gay'. There's so many hateful shades of wrong about that, I can't even begin.
It's no worse than Weinstein's "oh I'm from the 60s" excuse or whatever hogwash that was.
Have you no shame Kevin Spacey?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 30, 2017 13:03:37 GMT
I simply cannot believe that in your heart of hearts, you seriously think that 1) the pain of abuse gets easier as you get older and 2) this can all be cleared with "a good conversation with the abuser"!!!!!!!!! This is a parody account, surely?! What's your solution? Not talking with the person, just shouting in the press? Are you a parody? We are talking about a grown middle aged men here, that needs to have enough personality to talk about something that happened to him as a kid. He was approached and said no and nothing sexual did happen. Yes, Spacey was wrong with the approach, so talk to him and ask him what was going on in his mind. If you care to know that is.... He. Was. 14. A child. Whether he said no or not. He. Was. 14. 14. 14. 14. 14. 14.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 30, 2017 13:03:39 GMT
For what it's worth, I don't think it really matters even if a few examples like these come up. After all, the fact that a few instances exist doesn't really mean anything when it comes to the wider context of society as a whole. If you look hard enough I'm sure it's possible to find a few examples that lines up with just about any world view.". But it does show what is socially accepted, in commercials etc. And how 1 sided it all is. Nowadays men are objectified more than ever before. And worse, they are not allowed to say anything about it. They are being silenced. A very convenient way to use men exactly how you want them to be and only that. Dave, when it comes to adverts I would agree that men have historically been portrayed as dimwits who can’t do housework but I suspect that the underlying message here is that it is work that women should do. Ads that show men as objectified by women (Diet Coke ad) are only funny because they play on the irony that it is usually women who are subject to the male gaze so turning the tables creates a comic effect because it portrays an alternative universe where this is the new norm (which in reality it quite clearly isn't).
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Post by Deleted on Oct 30, 2017 13:07:39 GMT
For what it's worth, I don't think it really matters even if a few examples like these come up. After all, the fact that a few instances exist doesn't really mean anything when it comes to the wider context of society as a whole. If you look hard enough I'm sure it's possible to find a few examples that lines up with just about any world view.". But it does show what is socially accepted, in commercials etc. And how 1 sided it all is. Nowadays men are objectified more than ever before. And worse, they are not allowed to say anything about it. They are being silenced. A very convenient way to use men exactly how you want them to be and only that. Dave, when it comes to adverts I would agree that men have historically been portrayed as dimwits who can’t do housework but I suspect that the underlying message here is that it is work that women should do. Ads that show men as objectified by women (Diet Coke ad) are only funny because they play on the irony that it is usually women who are subject to the male gaze so turning the tables creates a comic effect because it portrays an alternative universe where this is the new norm (which in reality it quite clearly isn't).
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Post by sf on Oct 30, 2017 13:09:14 GMT
What's shocking and quite frankly disgusting about the Spacey story (other than the actual Anthony Rapp story itself, 14? Drunk or not, that should be career ending right there.) is that Spacey has tied his bizarre statement to his 'coming out'. Presumably so that this becomes the talking point and not the allegation and presumably so any criticism can be claimed as 'discrimination' or 'anti-gay'. There's so many hateful shades of wrong about that, I can't even begin. Absolutely. Reuters already fell into that particular trap, though they've since changed the emphasis of the story (they have not, though, removed the tweet with the headline 'Kevin Spacey declares he lives life as a gay man'). That statement wasn't an accident; since Rapp told the story, minus Spacey's name, to the Advocate more than 15 years ago, I would guess that Spacey's people have had a response ready to go for some time, just in case. It's a breathtakingly cynical move. (I have to hand it to Spacey, though - I thought he couldn't go any lower than that appalling performance of 'Bridge Over Troubled Water' at the Olivier Awards, and he's exceeded my expectations in spectacular fashion.)
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Post by Dave25 on Oct 30, 2017 13:09:38 GMT
Dave, when it comes to adverts I would agree that men have historically been portrayed as dimwits who can’t do housework but I suspect that the underlying message here is that it is work that women should do. Ads that show men as objectified by women (Diet Coke ad) are only funny because they play on the irony that it is usually women who are subject to the male gaze so turning the tables creates a comic effect because it portrays an alternative universe where this is the new norm (which in reality it quite clearly isn't). I think that's not the case here, as it has nothing to do with work. This commercial is targeted towards women (they must buy the product) and made from a very objectifying female standpoint. To be clear, I am a person that is impossible to intimidate, but don't go saying that objectification is not a huge problem for men in society. The norm here is exactly what's happening in society.
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