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Post by oxfordsimon on Oct 15, 2017 21:12:27 GMT
I would suggest that we avoid too much speculation about individuals. We don't want to get the forum into legal trouble.
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Post by Phantom of London on Oct 15, 2017 21:35:59 GMT
No doubt that some women find fame, money and power a no bigger aphrodisiac, Harvey Weinstein ticked all these boxes, let's be brutally honest and call it as it is and you wouldn't consider Harvey for his dashing good looks would you? His photos don't do him justice. Conversely it doesn't give him the right to force himself on women against their will and rape them. I cannot make that call, only a jury can make that opinion.
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Post by kathryn on Oct 15, 2017 21:41:57 GMT
I completely agree that Harvey Weinstein should be tried by a court and not the court of public opinion until a verdict is reached. I do think there are often people who jump on looking for money / attention in these situations but to accuse every person who comes forward of being that is incredibly unfair and indeed damaging to sexual assault victims and discourages others from coming forward in future. Human beings are just not good at nuance, it seems. I'm sure that intellectually we are all aware that it's totally possible for a few of these allegations to be made up or embellished while the others - the vast majority - are 100% true, and the existence of the former definitely does not change the credibility of the latter, but our collective knee-jerk reaction is all-or-nothing. So we tend to go to one extreme or another - it's just how the human mind seems to work. |
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Post by oxfordsimon on Oct 15, 2017 21:52:57 GMT
I am not sure anyone here believes that all of the accusers are not telling the truth. But I cannot honestly say that I believe it is outside the realms of possibility that there will be a tiny minority of accusations that will turn out to be completely without foundation.
I believe strongly in the rule of law and that requires evidence - not just accusation. I know that is difficult in many cases of sexual assault and even more so in historical cases. But we have no alternative but the rely on the legal system - with all the flaws - to determine guilt.
The presumption of innocence is vital to our criminal justice system. It is a shame that so many want to use social media to try to undermine that.
The authorities should take all accusations seriously and investigate appropriately and thoroughly. Those who make the accusations should be treated with compassion, sympathy and understanding. But it has to be up to the courts to determine guilt or otherwise - Facebook, Twitter or the front of the papers is not the place for those decisions.
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Post by BurlyBeaR on Oct 15, 2017 21:58:43 GMT
Several posts which name people completely un-involved with the Weinstein case have been removed.
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Post by dlevi on Oct 15, 2017 22:36:03 GMT
I think part of the reason that colleagues/media/people have come down so hard on Harvey Weinstein is that he is a difficult man to work with/for. He's a bully of the highest order (my personal experience) . If he were a nice guy and a joy with whom to work, I don't think the swarm would be as bad or vitriolic. I'm not in any way condoning what he has done but I believe his overall treatment of other people has contributed to the scrum on his career and reputation. Karma baby, it's a bitch.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2017 22:39:02 GMT
Once proceedings are ‘active’, anything which creates a substantial risk that the course of justice in these proceedings will be seriously prejudiced or impeded will be a contempt of court. Thanks for this @cmonfeet. Maybe I read too many crime novels, but I thought a jury is questioned and if they have already formed an opinion on the person/case then they are rejected. How do they deal with anything that may have 'created a substantial risk in the course of justice' before an arrest was made - ie. people forming opinions now? Regardless of the awfulness of what may or may not have happened, I am still extremely uncomfortable with this move towards trial by social media. It took three full days to get a jury together for Martin Shkreli's recent trial, because so many people knew who he was and were very willing to go on the record as thinking him an utter snake. Look it up, some of the quotes from potential jurors are BEAUTIFUL. They got there in the end though. |
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Post by Jon on Oct 15, 2017 23:05:39 GMT
I think part of the reason that colleagues/media/people have come down so hard on Harvey Weinstein is that he is a difficult man to work with/for. He's a bully of the highest order (my personal experience) . If he were a nice guy and a joy with whom to work, I don't think the swarm would be as bad or vitriolic. I'm not in any way condoning what he has done but I believe his overall treatment of other people has contributed to the scrum on his career and reputation. Karma baby, it's a bitch. There are many film producers who are difficult to work with, Scott Rudin is one example although even he hated working with Harvey on films like The Reader and The Hours. |
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Post by kathryn on Oct 15, 2017 23:07:09 GMT
I think part of the reason that colleagues/media/people have come down so hard on Harvey Weinstein is that he is a difficult man to work with/for. He's a bully of the highest order (my personal experience) . If he were a nice guy and a joy with whom to work, I don't think the swarm would be as bad or vitriolic. I'm not in any way condoning what he has done but I believe his overall treatment of other people has contributed to the scrum on his career and reputation. Karma baby, it's a bitch. It's all related, surely? The sexual harrassment is another manisfestation of his bullying - and the fact that people put up with his 'normal' workplace bullying while he was getting results made it easier for the sexual bullying to also be swept under the carpet. Not everyone knew exactly what went on in those hotel rooms, but everyone knew that the norms of decent human behaviour didn't really apply to him. Even now, I doubt this stuff would have come out if he was still getting results. He hasn't been a real power for a while - he seemed to lose his Oscar touch and the company had to re-finance its debts, it wasn't making huge profits. There are almost certainly men in Hollywood still behaving just as badly, with the same impunity. |
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Post by Jon on Oct 15, 2017 23:10:43 GMT
I think part of the reason that colleagues/media/people have come down so hard on Harvey Weinstein is that he is a difficult man to work with/for. He's a bully of the highest order (my personal experience) . If he were a nice guy and a joy with whom to work, I don't think the swarm would be as bad or vitriolic. I'm not in any way condoning what he has done but I believe his overall treatment of other people has contributed to the scrum on his career and reputation. Karma baby, it's a bitch. Even now, I doubt this stuff would have come out if he was still getting results. He hasn't been a real power for a while - he seemed to lose his Oscar touch and the company had to re-finance its debts, it wasn't making huge profits. TWC has been on the brink for a while with only the odd hit every so often. I suspect Tarantino who is a protege of Weinstein, will move to another studio for his next film. |
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Post by alicechallice on Oct 16, 2017 9:25:12 GMT
Several posts which name people completely un-involved with the Weinstein case have been removed.
The thread is called 'The Weinstein effect', so not necessarily restricted to just discussing the one man but the implications of how this case will determine our responses to such behaviour from other individuals.
If I, for instance, had spoken of inappropriate behaviour directed towards myself by the person we were discussing, would the posts have been removed? There are plenty of places elsewhere online it has been discussed.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 16, 2017 9:42:56 GMT
I find the whole thing a mess. I am in no way a defender of Harvey Weinstein but, as of yet, all that is known is his own admission of inappropriate behaviour that can be rightly termed sexual harassment. He hasn't yet been charged with any crime let alone convicted. Trial by Twitter is completely unacceptable. Social media is allowing all sorts of allegations to be made in the open with no control or oversight. Anyone who makes their claim to being a victim to the press before reporting it to the authorities is doing things the wrong way round in my opinion. If he is guilty of only one of the crimes being alleged then he should face the consequences. If he is guilty of all of them then it will be one of the major scandals in modern entertainment history. But I cannot help having a nagging suspicion that some of the victims may be nothing of the sort and are using this as an opportunity for self-promotion and claiming victimhood. I very much hope I am wrong in that - but we have seen situations like this before where historical abuse claims are made, the damage done to the alleged perpetrator - only for the claims to be shown to be without foundation. There is certainly no doubt that Weinstein is an unpleasant sleazeball. His actions may have been criminal - but until those things have been tested by the courts, then they are allegations and not facts. I fully accept that historical abuse cases are difficult to prove - but every effort must be made to fully investigate and then prosecute if the evidence justifies such a step. Everyone should allow the legal processes to take place and to keep their comments to themselves until the real rather than alleged picture emerges. In an ideal world I'd agree but given that the levels of conviction for rape and sexual assault are so incredibly out of kilt with the level of those crimes, and that women (and many men) are blamed, made to feel ashamed and actively punished for what has happened to them, people speaking out has got to be welcomed - we can't wait for criminal convictions. Stuff like this is happening to every woman you know in one way or another - every single woman has got stories of life and career limiting harassment/assault (the line between the two is very blurred). It's an epidemic that has to be acknowledged and talked about to raise awareness and remove the stigma - and make men who behave in this way acknowledge what they are doing, because in some cases I think they genuinely don't understand that what they are doing is so bad. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 16, 2017 9:51:26 GMT
In a similar way that 'Operation Yewtree' unspiraled in the UK, Im semi expecting a similar sequence of events over the water.
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Post by mallardo on Oct 16, 2017 10:23:11 GMT
In an ideal world I'd agree but given that the levels of conviction for rape and sexual assault are so incredibly out of kilt with the level of those crimes, and that women (and many men) are blamed, made to feel ashamed and actively punished for what has happened to them, people speaking out has got to be welcomed - we can't wait for criminal convictions. Stuff like this is happening to every woman you know in one way or another - every single woman has got stories of life and career limiting harassment/assault (the line between the two is very blurred). It's an epidemic that has to be acknowledged and talked about to raise awareness and remove the stigma - and make men who behave in this way acknowledge what they are doing, because in some cases I think they genuinely don't understand that what they are doing is so bad.
Indeed. I never met Mr. Weinstein but I worked with a writing partner who had been a lawyer in his Miramax office and she told me many tales of the sort that are emerging now. She was never a victim herself - he didn't seem to pull that stuff with employees - but she knew all about it. What's interesting is that her attitude was "so what else is new?" Men in power positions all over Hollywood were using that power in the same way. Men in power positions in every walk of life are doing it, all the time. Let's never assume HW is an isolated case.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 16, 2017 14:42:55 GMT
mallardo is exactly right- a lot of reactions from women are aside from being in solidarity with those affect are those of "Yes tell me about it" pick an industry, any industry and you'll find it. Academia for a start from personal experience. All of the social media hoopla is now largely resulting in some men being shocked, a lot telling women to shut up (so what else is new) and a lot of women thinking "you too huh?" I don't know the degree to which Weinstein has some what he has been accused of, that is indeed for a jury to decide. By not a word of it would surprise me not specially because it's him (I know very little of him) but because Rd the sort of thing that happens all the time. The good thing about it being in Hollywood is that people involved have the resources (financial) and platform to fight it nownird known. And that might slowing continued to things changing. But as a woman...I'm not holding my breath on that front.
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Post by oxfordsimon on Oct 16, 2017 15:33:39 GMT
I find the whole thing a mess. I am in no way a defender of Harvey Weinstein but, as of yet, all that is known is his own admission of inappropriate behaviour that can be rightly termed sexual harassment. He hasn't yet been charged with any crime let alone convicted. Trial by Twitter is completely unacceptable. Social media is allowing all sorts of allegations to be made in the open with no control or oversight. Anyone who makes their claim to being a victim to the press before reporting it to the authorities is doing things the wrong way round in my opinion. If he is guilty of only one of the crimes being alleged then he should face the consequences. If he is guilty of all of them then it will be one of the major scandals in modern entertainment history. But I cannot help having a nagging suspicion that some of the victims may be nothing of the sort and are using this as an opportunity for self-promotion and claiming victimhood. I very much hope I am wrong in that - but we have seen situations like this before where historical abuse claims are made, the damage done to the alleged perpetrator - only for the claims to be shown to be without foundation. There is certainly no doubt that Weinstein is an unpleasant sleazeball. His actions may have been criminal - but until those things have been tested by the courts, then they are allegations and not facts. I fully accept that historical abuse cases are difficult to prove - but every effort must be made to fully investigate and then prosecute if the evidence justifies such a step. Everyone should allow the legal processes to take place and to keep their comments to themselves until the real rather than alleged picture emerges. In an ideal world I'd agree but given that the levels of conviction for rape and sexual assault are so incredibly out of kilt with the level of those crimes, and that women (and many men) are blamed, made to feel ashamed and actively punished for what has happened to them, people speaking out has got to be welcomed - we can't wait for criminal convictions. Stuff like this is happening to every woman you know in one way or another - every single woman has got stories of life and career limiting harassment/assault (the line between the two is very blurred). It's an epidemic that has to be acknowledged and talked about to raise awareness and remove the stigma - and make men who behave in this way acknowledge what they are doing, because in some cases I think they genuinely don't understand that what they are doing is so bad. I have no issue at all about the issues being aired fully, discussed at length and action being taken. Where I have an issue is with those who make allegations just via the media and who don't first report things to the relevant authorities whether that is an employer or a police force. We have to have due process. We have to have investigations and then court based hearings. Every victim of assault or harassment deserves their day in court. They deserve to be treated with respect and understanding. But it has to be done that way. Speaking out is right but it has to be done the right way. And that isn't on Twitter or Facebook. It is to make official complaints in the right way. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 17, 2017 7:20:49 GMT
My Way
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Post by Deleted on Oct 17, 2017 9:38:07 GMT
While I completely agree that Harvey Weinstein should deal with the consequences of his actions, I do worry that everyone will be so focused on this one case because it seems so widespread that it will be easy to say afterwards "great, we've dealt with this dreadful man, we've expelled him from the Academy, well done to all those brave women etc" and it becomes a bit of a smokescreen and everyone will move on quickly and someone else will get away with the same behaviour because they "aren't as bad as Harvey Weinstein".
When really Hollywood (and other industries for that matter) need to also be picking out those people who behave in that way once and demonstrate that it isn't acceptable. John Oliver has it completely right when he mentions that the Academy hasn't really acted in relation to people like Roman Polanski, Bill Cosby and Mel Gibson and that Casey Affleck will be presenting the Best Actress Oscar next year.
Harvey Weinstein is just the very ugly tip of a really big iceberg and people should be reminded of that fact every day and more importantly, should deal with it every day.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 17, 2017 11:39:16 GMT
I have no issue at all about the issues being aired fully, discussed at length and action being taken. Where I have an issue is with those who make allegations just via the media and who don't first report things to the relevant authorities whether that is an employer or a police force. We have to have due process. We have to have investigations and then court based hearings. Every victim of assault or harassment deserves their day in court. They deserve to be treated with respect and understanding. But it has to be done that way. Speaking out is right but it has to be done the right way. And that isn't on Twitter or Facebook. It is to make official complaints in the right way. But that's the problem - given the inherent inequality in society Twitter/Facebook years after the event might be your only option to raise this as an issue. Try reporting rape/sexual assault - even if you are taken seriously by the police (a big if), the chance of getting to court never mind getting a conviction is vanishingly small and the trauma you will go through on top of the trauma of the attack is massive. Try reporting harassment or discrimination at work - the person whose career will be limited, who will get a reputation as a trouble-maker, who will be seen as less employable is you not the person who harassed you. I've seen it again and again and again - this really isn't something women are making up. So of course in an ideal world this would all go through a legal process. But in a very non-ideal world, women making allegations through the media or social media is a brave and important thing to do. Men really need to acknowledge this, and stop telling women that we are imagining the world that we live in just because they don't experience it and therefore are reluctant to believe that it's true. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 17, 2017 12:31:21 GMT
Exactly what @abby said. While of course formal allegations should be made in situations that warrant it, a great deal of the kinds of things being shared on social media (especially now on the #MeToo ) are things that wouldn't have legal implications, but that doesn't make them right.
I'd be laughed out of the Police station if I reported every man who touched me inappropriately on a night out or on public transport, because it doesn't 'cross a line' in terms of being worth anyone's time. It it still isn't right. Same goes with 'milder' sexual harassment in the workplace. One random example, an older male colleague used to frequently roll his eyes and make comments along the lines of 'Women, useless'. When I raised this, appropriately in a 1-1 situation with my manager I was told that is wasn't my place to comment on his behaviour.
And those are super mild examples of the wider culture. Women aren't taken seriously when they report abuse and sexual assault. The system doesn't favour them, it's intimidating and convictions are low. Retrospectively people feel there's nothing they can do about past cases. So they raise their voices online, which we now have a platform to do.
I'm in no way in favour of 'trial by twitter' but I am in favour of women using whatever means they have available to speak out.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 17, 2017 15:18:08 GMT
Try reporting harassment or discrimination at work - the person whose career will be limited, who will get a reputation as a trouble-maker, who will be seen as less employable is you not the person who harassed you. I've seen it again and again and again - this really isn't something women are making up. So of course in an ideal world this would all go through a legal process. But in a very non-ideal world, women making allegations through the media or social media is a brave and important thing to do. I think perhaps what's needed is some way of reporting something on a "no action until further notice" basis. The way things are at the moment, if you complain that someone is abusing their power then you've immediately burnt all your bridges, and if the case you present isn't strong enough then you end up losing everything, the person abusing their position of power knows they need to be more careful at covering their tracks, and future victims are dissuaded from coming forward because they've seen what happens. But if it was possible to record a complaint but not have it acted on immediately then it would remove the risk. It's no longer irrevocable. If nobody else complains then you haven't ruined your own prospects to no effect. And if other people do make similar complaints about the same person in a short period of time then perhaps a pattern can be spotted in a couple of years instead of the couple of decades it can take at the moment. The way things are now it can take so long to put the pieces of the jigsaw together that we can end up with the likes of Jimmy Savile never getting to see his reputation shredded because nobody came forward early enough. We have to be able to do better than that. I think women need to stop treating men like the enemy. Some of us do experience it. And part of what makes all of us human is the ability to understand what other people go through. This isn't a men versus women thing. It's a people versus total bastard thing. Men get abused too. Women are abusers too. Yes, men abusing women is more common, but one fact that often gets ignored in discussions like this is that people don't get abused as a demographic. If you are abused you are abused as an individual, by an individual. If you are a man who has been abused your suffering isn't diluted by the fact that abuse of men is less common. If you are a woman you don't get automatic outrage points because women are abused more than men. We are all people, and this is a problem that affects us all. Anyone who splits the world into groups and decides their group's emotions are more valid than any other's is part of the problem. We're all on the same side. Or at least we should be. |
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Post by horton on Oct 17, 2017 19:46:01 GMT
Actually The Matthew- Childline works exactly as you describe. If a number of similar reports are made about the same person from people who are unwilling to stand alone, Childline collates the reports and passes the information to the authorities. Several intimidating offenders have been caught this way.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 17, 2017 21:23:47 GMT
While I completely agree that Harvey Weinstein should deal with the consequences of his actions, I do worry that everyone will be so focused on this one case because it seems so widespread that it will be easy to say afterwards "great, we've dealt with this dreadful man, we've expelled him from the Academy, well done to all those brave women etc" and it becomes a bit of a smokescreen and everyone will move on quickly and someone else will get away with the same behaviour because they "aren't as bad as Harvey Weinstein". When really Hollywood (and other industries for that matter) need to also be picking out those people who behave in that way once and demonstrate that it isn't acceptable. John Oliver has it completely right when he mentions that the Academy hasn't really acted in relation to people like Roman Polanski, Bill Cosby and Mel Gibson and that Casey Affleck will be presenting the Best Actress Oscar next year. Harvey Weinstein is just the very ugly tip of a really big iceberg and people should be reminded of that fact every day and more importantly, should deal with it every day. hang on, whats Casey Affleck done? |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 18, 2017 9:21:30 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Oct 18, 2017 9:33:53 GMT
I think 'Women don't make these claims just for funsies' sums it up. I don't want to get into arguments over this with people here, but I think it's important to note this isn't about pitching man against woman or a fame game of sorts. It's about an endemic culture of silence and abuse (literal and abuse of power) that does predominately affect women.
I think also what women are asking for- aside from the obvious end to such abuses- is a way to report on them without fear of further and possibly worse repercussions. The reason things escalate often is that people don't feel comfortable reporting the 'lower level' issues so things are let slide, and let slide until we have people turning a blind eye to the really serious ones.
In a world where it's bloody hard to get a job (any job) people are scared. In the first job I mentioned above, I had no fear, it was a while ago and also jobs were easier to get. I stood up to that senior manager, and while I wasn't 'fired' for it, life became more and more uncomfortable and I left. I wonder if today, when I find myself desperate to find and hang onto jobs, would I be so bold?
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