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Post by rumbledoll on Sept 16, 2017 8:43:23 GMT
As a side note: anybody knows where the hell the new season is going to be announced? Things used to be more structural and in control.. I mean by this time each year the press-conference'd be called and we'd know already, what the upcoming year brings..
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Post by crowblack on Sept 16, 2017 9:00:23 GMT
Macbeth with Anne-Marie Duff and Rory Kinnear and a production of Annie Baker's John were mentioned a few months ago.
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Post by rumbledoll on Sept 16, 2017 9:16:15 GMT
Macbeth with Anne-Marie Duff and Rory Kinnear and a production of Annie Baker's John were mentioned a few months ago.
As well as Anthony and Cleopatra in Summer, yes.. But I'm talking details.. dates... and there's still a lot to come across three theatres I guess..
Also recently it's been a weird thing with NT website.. No casting shown for the productions that's due while the cast is already announced.. you can find it anywhere but the exact place it should officially be... Or AiA dedicated page saying Part II is approx 3h30min for months before they changed it to the correct running time..
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Post by zahidf on Sept 16, 2017 9:17:22 GMT
Macbeth with Anne-Marie Duff and Rory Kinnear and a production of Annie Baker's John were mentioned a few months ago.
As well as Anthony and Cleopatra in Summer, yes.. But I'm talking details.. dates... and there's still a lot to come across three theatres I guess..
Also recently it's been a weird thing with NT website.. No casting shown for the productions that's due while the cast is already announced.. you can find it anywhere but the exact place it should officially be... Or AiA dedicated page saying Part II is approx 3h30min for months before they changed it to the correct running time..
Its booked up until next Feb isnt it? I imagine theyll be one more booking period for new shows end of October
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Post by martin1965 on Sept 16, 2017 10:26:04 GMT
Yep, sometime next month for an announcement prob upto April/May.
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Post by dave72 on Sept 16, 2017 16:11:42 GMT
But nothing has been announced for the Dorfman after 9 January, right?
And yes, rumbledoll, you're right about the website. For instance, it continues to say Amadeus returns "from 22 January" even though it was pushed back to January 11th weeks ago.
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Post by Honoured Guest on Sept 16, 2017 16:15:40 GMT
But nothing has been announced for the Dorfman after 9 January, right? Not on-sale, but the next two plays were announced months ago: The Great Wave and John.
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Post by dave72 on Sept 18, 2017 16:20:24 GMT
Not on-sale, but the next two plays were announced months ago: The Great Wave and John. Thanks. Yes, I knew that--I just didn't think either was planned for as early as January.
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Post by bordeaux on Sept 24, 2017 10:20:55 GMT
I went to Oslo yesterday afternoon and Mosquitoes in the evening, both greeted with passionate applause. Follies was on next door. No sign of a theatre in crisis there.
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Post by Jan on Sept 24, 2017 15:19:33 GMT
I went to Oslo yesterday afternoon and Mosquitoes in the evening, both greeted with passionate applause. Follies was on next door. No sign of a theatre in crisis there. The crisis, or problem at least, is artistic - two new plays and an American musical is very narrow programming and it's set to continue - of course I understand that if you happen to like that it's fine but you can't project your own tastes on to the rest of us. Whether there's a financial crisis is hard to say - time will tell.
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Post by Cardinal Pirelli on Sept 24, 2017 17:42:45 GMT
Yes -- or to phrase the problem another way, he's now coming up three years in (started March 2015) A What are the huge, industry-shaking successes? B Who are the major defining artists whose home is his regime at that building? To give you two comparisons on the same time scale Hytner started April 2003. So by October 2005 A Jerry Springer The Opera, History Boys, Dark Matrrials, Elmina's Kitchen, The Pillowman, Complicite Measure for Measure, Stuff Happens B Katie Mitchell, Marianne Elliot, David Hare, Simon McBurney, Howard Davies, Kwame Kwei-Armah, Alan Bennett Goold started at the Almieda October 2013. So by May 2016 A Chimerica, Ghosts with Lesley Manville, 1984, King Charles III, Oresteia, Uncle Vanya. B Mike Bartlett, Richard Eyre, Robert Icke, Sacha Wares The crisis will be financial but it is the failure to woo the best artists and produce truly exciting work that makes the Norris NT so far, for me at least, a failure. One thing's for sure, diatribes against the the AD of both the National Theatre and the RSC is a way to get yourself noticed on a messageboard. This is, after all, a place where people arrive to share their love of what they have seen and any nitpicking usually emerges out of that rather than their blazing straight in with such an agenda. Primarily, the mindset of anyone with opinions about the arts is best served by remembering one thing - 'this is not all about you', or maybe more accurately - 'okay, this is all about you, but it's you that are the variable, not the people/organisation that you are trying to claim are the problem'. A little housekeeping - A People. Places and Things, Cleansed, The Flick, Ma Rainey's Black Bottom, Amadeus, Hedda Gabler, Angels in America, Follies. B Katie Mitchell, Marianne Elliot, David Hare, Ivo Van Hove, Robert Icke, Duncan MacMillan, Caryl Churchill (It really is too early, given scheduling, but these are where we are now, as opposed to not needing a crystal ball for Hytner) (As for these - Jerry Springer The Opera (okay but more for shock value), History Boys (tick), Dark Matrrials (breakneck adaptation which did not serve the novels well, although staging was excellent), Elmina's Kitchen (gave Kwei Armah a leg up but hardly earth shattering), The Pillowman (good play, why didn't he go back to the NT?), Complicite Measure for Measure (not Complicite's best and blown out of the water by Hill Gibbins' brilliant Young Vic version), Stuff Happens (really? Dull, dull, dull, not even convincingly acted with wobbly impressions abounding) There are a multitude of theatres in London, across the country, across the world and they each appeal to different people because they are run by different people. As such, you see that the ebb and flow of an organisation is mostly about the opinion of individual patrons and how much they chime or differ with that person/organisation. So it's purely personal opinion and where and how it chimes. I've been to the Donmar so few times recently as it's just not for me. Then again I've been to the Royal Court way more since Cooke left. Others may well feel the opposite, so just go to where you want and, some time, that will change. Just leave it a few years and everything is different again. For the record, you appear to like Goold/Icke, the way that British theatre has adapted to the European director led approach. People who know me here may recall that I am similarly a fan of that theatre. In the end it's not for everyone though, other people deserve their tastes to be reflected as well, it really is not all about me.
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Xanderl
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Not always very high value in terms of ticket yield or donations
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Post by Xanderl on Sept 25, 2017 6:37:47 GMT
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Post by Jan on Sept 25, 2017 6:46:49 GMT
Yes -- or to phrase the problem another way, he's now coming up three years in (started March 2015) A What are the huge, industry-shaking successes? B Who are the major defining artists whose home is his regime at that building? To give you two comparisons on the same time scale Hytner started April 2003. So by October 2005 A Jerry Springer The Opera, History Boys, Dark Matrrials, Elmina's Kitchen, The Pillowman, Complicite Measure for Measure, Stuff Happens B Katie Mitchell, Marianne Elliot, David Hare, Simon McBurney, Howard Davies, Kwame Kwei-Armah, Alan Bennett Goold started at the Almieda October 2013. So by May 2016 A Chimerica, Ghosts with Lesley Manville, 1984, King Charles III, Oresteia, Uncle Vanya. B Mike Bartlett, Richard Eyre, Robert Icke, Sacha Wares The crisis will be financial but it is the failure to woo the best artists and produce truly exciting work that makes the Norris NT so far, for me at least, a failure. One thing's for sure, diatribes against the the AD of both the National Theatre and the RSC is a way to get yourself noticed on a messageboard. This is, after all, a place where people arrive to share their love of what they have seen and any nitpicking usually emerges out of that rather than their blazing straight in with such an agenda. Primarily, the mindset of anyone with opinions about the arts is best served by remembering one thing - 'this is not all about you', or maybe more accurately - 'okay, this is all about you, but it's you that are the variable, not the people/organisation that you are trying to claim are the problem'. The problem is that Norris is running the NT as if it IS all about himself - he's programming only things that appeal to him and people like him. Before he took the job he announced that he wasn't familiar with the classical repertoire and that he much preferred the writer of a play to be in the rehearsal room. Result: He doesn't programme anything from the classical repertoire other than a few very familiar plays and he programmes a large number of new plays. It is also clear he is in thrall to the USA so there's a disproportionate number of plays and star actors from there. We know, however, that Hytner programmed plays that he personally disliked to get a more diverse and inclusive repertoire - that made him a better AD than Norris in my view. I think Norris' programming is very self-centred in a way only Nunn's was before - whether it is justified by having the same financial success of the latter we'll see.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 25, 2017 7:34:18 GMT
It's almost amusing how some people seem to want the NT to appeal to their personal taste while also crowing on about some kind of mythical national appeal or service.
Cardinal Pirelli hits the nail on the head above- theatres with their ADs have a sort of ebb and flow. I too have barely darkened the door of the Donmar in recent years whereas I used to be there a lot. It's not that the stuff programmed is terrible- it's just for me it's fallen off the 'unmissable' radar on the whole. Meanwhile, for me the Almeida is now ticking a lot of boxes, but come their next round of announcements that may change again. Similarly while I went to the NT a lot under Hytner there were also seasons where I didn't set foot there. All of this because personally there was nothing of a 'must see'.
The idea of there somehow being a 'correct' set of programming because it's the 'National Theatre' is also getting a bit ridiculous. How can anyone define what is right for 'the nation' anyway?
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Post by zahidf on Sept 25, 2017 7:49:09 GMT
It's almost amusing how some people seem to want the NT to appeal to their personal taste while also crowing on about some kind of mythical national appeal or service. Cardinal Pirelli hits the nail on the head above- theatres with their ADs have a sort of ebb and flow. I too have barely darkened the door of the Donmar in recent years whereas I used to be there a lot. It's not that the stuff programmed is terrible- it's just for me it's fallen off the 'unmissable' radar on the whole. Meanwhile, for me the Almeida is now ticking a lot of boxes, but come their next round of announcements that may change again. Similarly while I went to the NT a lot under Hytner there were also seasons where I didn't set foot there. All of this because personally there was nothing of a 'must see'. The idea of there somehow being a 'correct' set of programming because it's the 'National Theatre' is also getting a bit ridiculous. How can anyone define what is right for 'the nation' anyway? Yeah, this. Most theatre have hits or misses, I don't think the national is particularly different to that, under Hytner or now. Hytner had some TERRIBLE shows in the main theatres as well. Dance of Death and Greenfield come to mind immediately.
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Post by Jan on Sept 25, 2017 8:36:26 GMT
It's almost amusing how some people seem to want the NT to appeal to their personal taste while also crowing on about some kind of mythical national appeal or service. Ah ... there you go again .... playing the man instead of the ball ..... Programming at the Donmar, a single small space, is not comparable to programming at the NT with three houses and a vastly bigger budget so the two can't be equated. The claim that the requirement for the NT to have wide appeal is "mythical" flatly contradicts an actual NT spokeswoman who said (in answer to Billington's complaint that they have eliminated the lesser-known classical repertoire) the organisation aimed to put together a programme "that would appeal to the widest possible audience, taking in many genres". Actually you have put forward a straw man argument because no-one at all is asking for EVERYTHING at the NT to appeal to their personal taste, just that SOMETHING there should occasionally appeal to them - currently those mostly interested in the lesser-known classical repertoire have nothing.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 25, 2017 8:41:24 GMT
It's almost amusing how some people seem to want the NT to appeal to their personal taste while also crowing on about some kind of mythical national appeal or service. Ah ... there you go again .... playing the man instead of the ball ..... Programming at the Donmar, a single small space, is not comparable to programming at the NT with three houses and a vastly bigger budget so the two can't be equated. The claim that the requirement for the NT to have wide appeal is "mythical" flatly contradicts an actual NT spokeswoman who said (in answer to Billington's complaint that they have eliminated the lesser-known classical repertoire) the organisation aimed to put together a programme "that would appeal to the widest possible audience, taking in many genres". Actually you have put forward a straw man argument because no-one at all is asking for EVERYTHING at the NT to appeal to their personal taste, just that SOMETHING there should occasionally appeal to them - currently those mostly interested in the lesser-known classical repertoire have nothing. You know what's more boring than the same old argument on this thread? the same old posters coming at me no matter what I post. Dr, Professor, Good Sir, I could agree 100% with anything you post and you'd still find a way to call what I said 'wrong' somehow. You'd argue black was white and snow was warm just to quote me and say I was wrong. I'm not sure why, but there we go. I'm not wasting time arguing you actual points, because myself and others have gone over this time and time again on this thread. I (and others) disagree that the NT 'has' to programme as much 'classical' repertoire as some expect (and indeed what is that definition) and the overriding argument here from most of us on the other side is that it's too soon to judge Norris' tenure.
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Post by kathryn on Sept 25, 2017 9:31:06 GMT
I (and others) disagree that the NT 'has' to programme as much 'classical' repertoire as some expect (and indeed what is that definition) and the overriding argument here from most of us on the other side is that it's too soon to judge Norris' tenure. Not just programme all that familiar 'classical' repertoire*, and work with established talent*, but also discover and develop productive working relationships with exciting new talent*, be experimental, but at the same time revive and preserve older less-known works*. And have commercial hits* and reflect the state of the nation. *Unless, of course, they're American.
I remember well the moaning about Hytner needing to go and let new blood come in towards the end of his tenure - people couldn't wait for Rufus to take over. I'm sure the same happened at the end of Nunn's tenure. Now they're being held up as a standard of excellent to aspire to.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 25, 2017 9:37:13 GMT
Not just programme all that familiar 'classical' repertoire*, and work with established talent*, but also discover and develop productive working relationships with exciting new talent*, be experimental, but at the same time revive and preserve older less-known works*. And have commercial hits* and reflect the state of the nation. *Unless, of course, they're American.
I remember well the moaning about Hytner needing to go and let new blood come in towards the end of his tenure - people couldn't wait for Rufus to take over. I'm sure the same happened at the end of Nunn's tenure. Now they're being held up as a standard of excellent to aspire to. Ooh yeah I forgot. Right so just so I've got this straight, for when I take over from Rufus.... -Familiar classical repertoire. Obviously done in a traditional way, no boundary pushing or innovative directors (bye Ivo) -Work with the BEST current working directors and also discover the next big thing, who we will know is the next big thing from the very first production. -Revive all the 'classics'. But no foreign muck. This is Brexit Britain after all, and America well what have they contributed to drama anyway? -Reflect the state of the Nation. Unless the state of the Nation is somewhat experimental, not written and directed by a known talent and/or somehow doesn't correspond to established tastes. -No Americans, living or dead. -Musicals, also seem to be out. Sorry Imelda. -Programme new work. Except not in the Olivier. Also not the Lyttleton. But why are all the new plays shoved in the Dorfman. -No Americans. -Be Nick Hytner. Except for the times we hated him too. Have I covered it?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 25, 2017 10:47:15 GMT
Goodness. All this fuss and fervour over Rufus.
What will you all be like when I take over the Nash?
Oops. Cat out of the bag.
My bad.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 25, 2017 10:53:39 GMT
Goodness. All this fuss and fervour over Rufus. What will you all be like when I take over the Nash? Oops. Cat out of the bag. My bad. At least when you take over the OTHER 'How Long?' question will quickly be answered, we all know the pictures are out there somewhere
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Post by bordeaux on Sept 25, 2017 13:07:38 GMT
I went to Oslo yesterday afternoon and Mosquitoes in the evening, both greeted with passionate applause. Follies was on next door. No sign of a theatre in crisis there. The crisis, or problem at least, is artistic - two new plays and an American musical is very narrow programming and it's set to continue - of course I understand that if you happen to like that it's fine but you can't project your own tastes on to the rest of us. Whether there's a financial crisis is hard to say - time will tell. I certainly wasn't referring to the finances and I agree the crisis has been artistic, but I'm hoping that these three hits are harbingers of good things in the future. I'm sure he's aware of the gaps in the scheduling. There's nothing I'd like more than for Norris to announce a production of Aeschylus' The Persians and something by Schnitzler or SRB returning to play John Gabriel Borkman.
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Xanderl
Member
Not always very high value in terms of ticket yield or donations
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Post by Xanderl on Sept 25, 2017 13:29:31 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Sept 25, 2017 13:36:40 GMT
Facts?! We won't have your sort around here sir
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Post by lynette on Sept 25, 2017 15:29:11 GMT
Both American and foreign stuff acceptable. What with technology we could even have foreign stuff performed in foreign with translations on a screen. O my what a thought! Minor classics yes. Major classics yes yes. Musicals of course - they are national and theatre aren't they? So ok Imelda you're in again. But please no poor plays, no preaching plays a la late Hare or more recently that England crap. You know the one. No upsey downsey the sake of it. Put plays in appropriate spaces. ( so maybe hire Olivier out to a circus and Lyttleton to corporate presentations) And what do they do in Berlin? Sorry I must have missed that. I'm away in foreign land at the moment.
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Post by alicechallice on Sept 25, 2017 16:36:39 GMT
Goodness. All this fuss and fervour over Rufus. What will you all be like when I take over the Nash? Oops. Cat out of the bag. My bad. Year-long revivals of "Naked Boys Reading" in all 3 theatres? Starring Tom Bateman, Jonathan Bailey and Marc Elliott?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 25, 2017 16:55:31 GMT
Goodness. All this fuss and fervour over Rufus. What will you all be like when I take over the Nash? Oops. Cat out of the bag. My bad. Year-long revivals of "Naked Boys Reading" in all 3 theatres? Starring Tom Bateman, Jonathan Bailey and Marc Elliott? Ha! Naturally. I shall make it Nash policy that every production has to have at least one hot actor in it (preferably more). And they should be prepared to disrobe. The part will always call for it. The opening production will be Chekhov's 'Three Brothers' starring Tom, Jonny and Marc. Set in a nudist camp. Start as you mean to go on, I say.
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Post by Cardinal Pirelli on Sept 26, 2017 18:05:24 GMT
Well it's a bit rich to come blazing in with extreme positions on both Norris and Doran and then complain that the thread is 'poisonous'! It sure looked like you wanted to start a big argument and, believe me, this is nothing compared to some of the ruckuses seen on here.
Personally I found it patronising that we were being asked to judge by rules made up for others to follow but horses for courses and all that. Rather than moving the goalposts on that though*, why not address why so many successes have been pointed out and (as far as the available figures show) that this extends to the commercial realm? Why do your feelings seem to contrast with those of others and the facts as we have them? The counter argument has surely been to point those things out.
* and to ones that favour past over current, given that we know about Hytner's future but not Norris'.
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Post by tributary on Sept 26, 2017 19:20:40 GMT
I don't think they're extreme positions. There's certainly been a lot of negative press in the broadsheets about the Norris regime, and the feeling in the industry is hardly that it's a golden age.
It's not to do with whether my feelings contrast with anyone else's, either. I was trying to find a way of measuring the success of a regime against a previous one, and to take a look at the shows in that regime felt like a fair way of doing it. I'm very happy to look at some other rules too if you have better ideas. It is, after all, just a forum.
As to favouring past over current, I don't think you've understood; I've only noted shows from the period in which Hytner had been in post for as long as Norris currently has.
And as for the successes that have been pointed out, I have addressed that - compared to Hytner, very few of those Norris successes have garnered the kind of recognition, either in awards or in outbound transfers to other venues. They're successes, sure, but just not of the same size and scale.
I'd say the same thing about the artists you mention above, that very few of them on your list (many great ones though there are) have an actual relationship with the building beyond just doing one show there and then not returning. Hence my trying to measure it as in my last post.
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Post by Cardinal Pirelli on Sept 26, 2017 19:54:09 GMT
Well the productions I chose appear to be superior to me and look likely to be more successful in the coming years than the Hytner ones you mentioned. I also believe that the names I mentioned are also as likely to hang around. I do seriously believe that, I'm not just being contradictory.
The point that you felt I'd misunderstood was not about 'favouring past over current' but that the past is looked on through the eyes of what came after. That's the point I was making, we know what happened with Hytner after his first couple of years, we can't yet know that with Norris.
Anyhow, we now have Kwei-Armah and Terry to be concerned about, I have worries about both but look forward to being proved wrong.
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