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Post by Deleted on Dec 28, 2017 22:01:57 GMT
Interesting. In 2007 the Olivier also had SRB in Much Ado and Anne-Marie Duff in St Joan. Hytner’s Hamlet with Kinnear played a tour after the Olivier and then transferred back to the Lyttleton. You’re also not right about new plays never working in there. Her Naked Skin was excellent in 2008. Welcome to Thebes was a fair chalk above any of this year’s offerings. This House and London Road played better in there than they had in the Dorfman. The real thing I felt looking at the Olivier list was the higher calibre of director Hytner seemed to be able consistently to attract. Norris either doesn’t like talent or doesn’t have the relationships or both. Wouldn't have called 'Her Naked Skin' or 'Welcome to Thebes' excellent, both were mediocre (in my opinion) and their lack of subsequent productions is a measurable factor which shows that. This House did work (which is why I suggested Graham for the task) but London Road was lost, same as with Sweeney Todd being transferred to the Lyttelton. That you are having to pick on productions so long ago is indicative of there being a long term problem. We (or maybe it was somebody else it was with) have already had this about directors, they are pretty equal at this point in their tenure regarding that. |
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Post by tributary on Dec 28, 2017 22:10:31 GMT
The Olivier theatre is clearly a long term problem, no doubt.
The difference is that Hytner had a team of directors in Howard Davies, Norris, Marianne Elliot, Tom Morris, Katie Mitchell who consistently provided him with good work for the big spaces. Add in repeat visits from Deborah Warner and Simon McBurney and you’ve got something Norris is nowhere near equalling.
Norris’ good associates are Dominic Cooke and Nadia Fall (who’s left to go to Stratford East). Then there’s Simon Godwin. Regulars are Jeremy Herrin and Polly Findlay.
There simply isn’t the same level of talent.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 28, 2017 22:35:38 GMT
Godwin's a crowd pleaser, Herrin has People, Places & Things, This House and a nice resume building up, Polly Findlay too. You miss out Van Hove (twice), Longhurst (twice?), both outstanding directors. Elliott has popped up, as have Mitchell, Tiffany, Turner, Cracknell, Daldry and Icke, Mendes, Hill Gibbins and Macdonald up shortly etc. etc. As I say, this conversation has been done before and it doesn't stand up to scrutiny.
On the Hytner favourites, I found Davies to be solid but never spectacular, Mitchell I love (but seems to get a sniffy response on here), Tom Morris did three productions, all of them with a co-director (all good, in my opinion but, again, I liked A Matter of Life and Death on here more than most).
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Post by tributary on Dec 28, 2017 23:25:53 GMT
Godwin's a crowd pleaser, Herrin has People, Places & Things, This House and a nice resume building up, Polly Findlay too. You miss out Van Hove (twice), Longhurst (twice?), both outstanding directors. Elliott has popped up, as have Mitchell, Tiffany, Turner, Cracknell, Daldry and Icke, Mendes, Hill Gibbins and Macdonald up shortly etc. etc. As I say, this conversation has been done before and it doesn't stand up to scrutiny. On the Hytner favourites, I found Davies to be solid but never spectacular, Mitchell I love (but seems to get a sniffy response on here), Tom Morris did three productions, all of them with a co-director (all good, in my opinion but, again, I liked A Matter of Life and Death on here more than most). I’m not sure your scrutiny stands up to scrutiny. It’s not about favourites, really, for me, but about which of the cream of the crop he’s got meaningful relationships with. I didn’t always love Davies’ work either but my god actors and audiences did and some of the shows were, on their own terms, wonderful. Hytner got Curious and War Horse and History Boys (whatever you thought of them, big lucrative hits) because those artists were at home at the NT. Noone seems to be at home there now, which means no hits because the directors don’t bring their best shows there. Godwin and Herrin are directors for hire rather than artists in their own rights. I’d put Longhurst and Cracknell in the same group.. Turner is an omission on my list. Van Hove sort of, but he’s everywhere now. Elliot’s gone. Tiffany’s done one big commercial Disney show, indifferently reviewed. Mendes about to do the same. Daldry hasn’t been near the place, has he? We have Hill Gibbons and Macdonald coming up but not Icke or Mitchell (unless I’ve missed something!). Mitchell’s only done Cleansed, and Icke only Red Barn, both back in 2016. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 28, 2017 23:46:00 GMT
Godwin's a crowd pleaser, Herrin has People, Places & Things, This House and a nice resume building up, Polly Findlay too. You miss out Van Hove (twice), Longhurst (twice?), both outstanding directors. Elliott has popped up, as have Mitchell, Tiffany, Turner, Cracknell, Daldry and Icke, Mendes, Hill Gibbins and Macdonald up shortly etc. etc. As I say, this conversation has been done before and it doesn't stand up to scrutiny. On the Hytner favourites, I found Davies to be solid but never spectacular, Mitchell I love (but seems to get a sniffy response on here), Tom Morris did three productions, all of them with a co-director (all good, in my opinion but, again, I liked A Matter of Life and Death on here more than most). I’m not sure your scrutiny stands up to scrutiny. It’s not about favourites, really, for me, but about which of the cream of the crop he’s got meaningful relationships with. I didn’t always love Davies’ work either but my god actors and audiences did and some of the shows were, on their own terms, wonderful. Hytner got Curious and War Horse and History Boys (whatever you thought of them, big lucrative hits) because those artists were at home at the NT. Noone seems to be at home there now, which means no hits because the directors don’t bring their best shows there. Godwin and Herrin are directors for hire rather than artists in their own rights. I’d put Longhurst in the same group though I think he’s better than Cracknell. Turner is an omission on my list. Van Hove sort of, but he’s everywhere now. Elliot’s gone. Tiffany’s done one big commercial Disney show, indifferently reviewed. Mendes about to do the same. Daldry hasn’t been near the place, has he? We have Hill Gibbons and Macdonald coming up but not Icke or Mitchell (unless I’ve missed something!). Mitchell’s only done Cleansed, and Icke only Red Barn, both back in 2016. Hytner had many more years to create that list (again, this conversation has been done before) and what is this new 'directors for hire' subdivision? They are all for hire and all seem to have their own style. Longhurst is, for me, there with Icke as our best young(er) director. Daldry - The Jungle (done at Young Vic as a co-production, didn't fit in the existing spaces). "Elliott has popped up, as have Mitchell, Tiffany, Turner, Cracknell, Daldry and Icke; Mendes, Hill Gibbins and Macdonald up shortly" Added semi-colon makes the past/future bit clearer. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 28, 2017 23:51:01 GMT
The bare facts are
From Hytner and Norris
One is highly intelligent
Articulate
Interesting to speak to
Well read
And able to direct a wide variety of shows
Succesfully
From Shakespeare
To One Man
To Rafta Rafta
To His Dark Materials
The other
Well....
I also wonder if when Norris does his story from his time at the NT
Will he have anything worthy to put in it
Will anyone want to read it
Will anyone give a sh*t
Will radio 4 serialise it
I doubt it
Unless Norris is going to perform miracles
In the next 4 years
The gap between the two is widening
I also highly doubt Norris will remain at the NT
As long as Hytner
I hear the venue has depreciated
Amongst actors
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Post by lynette on Dec 28, 2017 23:59:37 GMT
The venue has depreciated if that is the right word, Parsley, with audiences too. It is no longer a lot of fun going there. Well, I speak for myself I suppose and my friends.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 29, 2017 0:12:45 GMT
The venue has depreciated if that is the right word, Parsley, with audiences too. It is no longer a lot of fun going there. Well, I speak for myself I suppose and my friends. Some Time ago I spoke With an actor who was in several shows At the start of the Norris regime Things are rocky Yes it’s not burning down And shows will keep coming And there is no international crisis And no one died But standards and quality have slipped Across The venue In the widest possible sense I have seen every single show at the NT Since 2004 or so And many prior to this Perhaps Its personal taste But I have spent an hour or so looking Through my old Programmes Far more to impress and of interest 10 years ago than there is now My family are also much more reluctant To Attend the NT now As I have pointed out before Their favourite shows there Included My Fair Lady War Horse Funny Thing Forum Measure for Measure Dark Materials I don’t think Norris Has done anything close to My Fair Lady in terms of production quality Dark Materials in terms of ambition Funny Thing in terms of sheer entertainment War Horse in terms of financial success Oh sorry he is still finding his feet And learning to walk |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 29, 2017 0:15:03 GMT
Point of Information - Norris is the first non-Oxbridge AD in over forty years (non-Cambridge in fact). A certain type of person doesn't like that sort of thing, lowers the tone of the place.
EDIT: Forum was dire, just appalling, Ed Hall screwed up Once in a Lifetime in the Olivier as well. My Fair Lady was solid but no greater than scores of West End musicals then and since, His Dark Materials was a stunning design in search of a script that stopped to think rather than just plot, plot, plot. Measure for Measure wasn't Complicite at their best, for that look to Mnemonic, Diappearing Number, Master & Margarita etc. Poor taste overall, only War Horse is worthy of being in a best of list over that period of time.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 29, 2017 0:24:39 GMT
Point of Information - Norris is the first non-Oxbridge AD in over forty years (non-Cambridge in fact). A certain type of person doesn't like that sort of thing, lowers the tone of the place. A certain type of person Is also relied on To Fill The open gob When the NT asks for money To rebuild the venue Or fund the apparently lavish Follies (Obviously I have a different definition of “lavish”) I would Be interested to know The donation And funding rates Of Oxbridge patrons I bet they are higher than the general population |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 29, 2017 0:25:55 GMT
Point of Information - Norris is the first non-Oxbridge AD in over forty years (non-Cambridge in fact). A certain type of person doesn't like that sort of thing, lowers the tone of the place. EDIT: Forum was dire, just appalling, Ed Hall screwed up Once in a Lifetime in the Olivier as well. My Fair Lady was solid but no greater than scores of West End musicals then and since, His Dark Materials was a stunning design in search of a script that stopped to think rather than just plot, plot, plot. Measure for Measure wasn't Complicite at their best, for that look to Mnemonic, Diappearing Number, Master & Margarita etc. Poor taste overall, only War Horse is worthy of being in a best of list over that period of time. I don’t think it was that dire Perhaps That’s why you aren’t a theatre critic And have to post your opinions for Free?? |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 29, 2017 0:34:40 GMT
Point of Information - Norris is the first non-Oxbridge AD in over forty years (non-Cambridge in fact). A certain type of person doesn't like that sort of thing, lowers the tone of the place. EDIT: Forum was dire, just appalling, Ed Hall screwed up Once in a Lifetime in the Olivier as well. My Fair Lady was solid but no greater than scores of West End musicals then and since, His Dark Materials was a stunning design in search of a script that stopped to think rather than just plot, plot, plot. Measure for Measure wasn't Complicite at their best, for that look to Mnemonic, Diappearing Number, Master & Margarita etc. Poor taste overall, only War Horse is worthy of being in a best of list over that period of time. “My Fair Lady was solid” That and Anything Goes Transferred to the biggest theatre in London I would Be interested to see what Norris Transfers to Drury Lane Wonder.land perhaps Or Pinocchio?? The man has no financial acumen at all I would love a debate Hytner V Norris Like the election ones they do Perhaps it would be too cruel though As so unfair 😂😂 |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 29, 2017 0:39:15 GMT
Point of Information - Norris is the first non-Oxbridge AD in over forty years (non-Cambridge in fact). A certain type of person doesn't like that sort of thing, lowers the tone of the place. EDIT: Forum was dire, just appalling, Ed Hall screwed up Once in a Lifetime in the Olivier as well. My Fair Lady was solid but no greater than scores of West End musicals then and since, His Dark Materials was a stunning design in search of a script that stopped to think rather than just plot, plot, plot. Measure for Measure wasn't Complicite at their best, for that look to Mnemonic, Diappearing Number, Master & Margarita etc. Poor taste overall, only War Horse is worthy of being in a best of list over that period of time. I don’t think it was that dire Perhaps That’s why you aren’t a theatre critic And have to post your opinions for Free?? The Nathan Lane Broadway revival was far superior to the witless mess that Hall served up. It's the sort of show that benefits from an American director who knows vaudeville and burlesque. As for reviewing this is a useful point to pick on as no review or reviewer, in my opinion, is worth payment. A whole industry has built up in trying to convince people that there can be objectivity in reviews when it's impossible. All they are, are opinions backed up in one direction, whilst others do the same in other directions, it's just a game. That said, my job involves an academic analysis of theatre and criticism as a part of it although I'd rather go penniless than if I was paid just for giving opinions. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 29, 2017 0:40:58 GMT
Norris should
Go on Dragons Den
And apply
For
Funding
See what they make of his track record
😂😂😂
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Post by Deleted on Dec 29, 2017 0:42:13 GMT
Point of Information - Norris is the first non-Oxbridge AD in over forty years (non-Cambridge in fact). A certain type of person doesn't like that sort of thing, lowers the tone of the place. EDIT: Forum was dire, just appalling, Ed Hall screwed up Once in a Lifetime in the Olivier as well. My Fair Lady was solid but no greater than scores of West End musicals then and since, His Dark Materials was a stunning design in search of a script that stopped to think rather than just plot, plot, plot. Measure for Measure wasn't Complicite at their best, for that look to Mnemonic, Diappearing Number, Master & Margarita etc. Poor taste overall, only War Horse is worthy of being in a best of list over that period of time. “My Fair Lady was solid” That and Anything Goes Transferred to the biggest theatre in London I would Be interested to see what Norris Transfers to Drury Lane Wonder.land perhaps Or Pinocchio?? The man has no financial acumen at all I would love a debate Hytner V Norris Like the election ones they do Perhaps it would be too cruel though As so unfair 😂😂 Anything Goes was nothing spectacular either, again the Americans did its revival better. The superior NT revivals were Oklahoma and Carousel (sublime), if a musical goes to Broadway that's a good indicator of success. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 29, 2017 0:43:29 GMT
The Nathan Lane Broadway revival was far superior to the witless mess that Hall served up. It's the sort of show that benefits from an American director who knows vaudeville and burlesque. As for reviewing this is a useful point to pick on as no review or reviewer, in my opinion, is worth payment. A whole industry has built up in trying to convince people that there can be objectivity in reviews when it's impossible. All they are, are opinions backed up in one direction, whilst others do the same in other directions, it's just a game. That said, my job involves an academic analysis of theatre and criticism as a part of it although I'd rather go penniless than if I was paid just for giving opinions. People Pay for opinions all The time Eg: going to the doctor And shopping around For opinions |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 29, 2017 0:45:10 GMT
The Nathan Lane Broadway revival was far superior to the witless mess that Hall served up. It's the sort of show that benefits from an American director who knows vaudeville and burlesque. As for reviewing this is a useful point to pick on as no review or reviewer, in my opinion, is worth payment. A whole industry has built up in trying to convince people that there can be objectivity in reviews when it's impossible. All they are, are opinions backed up in one direction, whilst others do the same in other directions, it's just a game. That said, my job involves an academic analysis of theatre and criticism as a part of it although I'd rather go penniless than if I was paid just for giving opinions. Academic analysis of theatre Saving humanity I see 😂😂😂 |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 29, 2017 0:49:10 GMT
The Nathan Lane Broadway revival was far superior to the witless mess that Hall served up. It's the sort of show that benefits from an American director who knows vaudeville and burlesque. As for reviewing this is a useful point to pick on as no review or reviewer, in my opinion, is worth payment. A whole industry has built up in trying to convince people that there can be objectivity in reviews when it's impossible. All they are, are opinions backed up in one direction, whilst others do the same in other directions, it's just a game. That said, my job involves an academic analysis of theatre and criticism as a part of it although I'd rather go penniless than if I was paid just for giving opinions. People Pay for opinions all The time Eg: going to the doctor And shopping around For opinions You really think an opinion on a show is akin to an opinion on someone's health? All those years of training and graft and you want to get lumped in with someone saying what they felt when watching something? EDIT: Also, education may not save humanity but it may make it a little bit more bearable. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 29, 2017 0:53:53 GMT
People Pay for opinions all The time Eg: going to the doctor And shopping around For opinions You really think an opinion on a show is akin to an opinion on someone's health? All those years of training and graft and you want to get lumped in with someone saying what they felt when watching something? EDIT: Also, education may not save humanity but it makes it a little bit more bearable. Many people Have nothing wrong with them You can’t give any opinion When there is nothing wrong Let alone multiple opinions Yet they can pay and get them regardless It’s actually more subjective Giving a medical opinion As the patient has to accept it to some Extent in order for a proper end to the consultation But perhaps there are similarities If they don’t like the opinion or advice you offer it leads to Issues and conflict Same as when forum sisters Argue over show opinions!! Anyway happy new year You are good natured long time member of the forum And don’t get all Agitated Like Some Others 😊 |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 29, 2017 0:58:27 GMT
You really think an opinion on a show is akin to an opinion on someone's health? All those years of training and graft and you want to get lumped in with someone saying what they felt when watching something? EDIT: Also, education may not save humanity but it makes it a little bit more bearable. Many people Have nothing wrong with them You can’t give any opinion When there is nothing wrong Let alone multiple opinions Yet they can pay and get them regardless It’s actually more subjective Giving a medical opinion As the patient has to accept it But perhaps there are similarities If they don’t like the opinion or advice you offer it leads to Issues and conflict Same as when forum sisters Argue over show opinions!! Anyway happy new year You are good natured long tile member of the forum And don’t get all Agitated Like Some Others 😊 Careful, you'll get a reputation for being nice. Should I go and get you a turkey that you can anonymously pass on to a poor family? And a happy new year to you too (and to one and all). |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 29, 2017 1:03:41 GMT
Many people Have nothing wrong with them You can’t give any opinion When there is nothing wrong Let alone multiple opinions Yet they can pay and get them regardless It’s actually more subjective Giving a medical opinion As the patient has to accept it But perhaps there are similarities If they don’t like the opinion or advice you offer it leads to Issues and conflict Same as when forum sisters Argue over show opinions!! Anyway happy new year You are good natured long tile member of the forum And don’t get all Agitated Like Some Others 😊 Careful, you'll get a reputation for being nice. Should I go and get you a turkey that you can anonymously pass on to a poor family? And a happy new year to you too (and to one and all). Goose I prefer 😋 |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 29, 2017 1:07:18 GMT
I quite enjoyed The Suicide. Again, it was from a fairly new writer and I know I am repeating myself, but how else are they to gain the experience? Playwrights don't just pop out from nowhere: they have to be nurtured. In the last couple of years some of the best and most challenging theatre experiences I have had have been at the NT - The Flick, Sarah Kane's Cleansed (directed by Katie Mitchell), People Places and Things (which transferred to the West End where it had a very successful run), Barbershop Chronicles, Consent (although I didn't like this quite as much as critics and other theatregoers seemed to), Close to the Bone. I'll take any of these plays over "My Fair Lady" any day.
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Post by tributary on Dec 29, 2017 9:46:11 GMT
Point of Information - Norris is the first non-Oxbridge AD in over forty years (non-Cambridge in fact). A certain type of person doesn't like that sort of thing, lowers the tone of the place. EDIT: Forum was dire, just appalling, Ed Hall screwed up Once in a Lifetime in the Olivier as well. My Fair Lady was solid but no greater than scores of West End musicals then and since, His Dark Materials was a stunning design in search of a script that stopped to think rather than just plot, plot, plot. Measure for Measure wasn't Complicite at their best, for that look to Mnemonic, Diappearing Number, Master & Margarita etc. Poor taste overall, only War Horse is worthy of being in a best of list over that period of time. Are you suggesting that people don’t like Norris because he’s non-Oxbridge? I think that’s a bit of a stretch, given that the whole conversation has been about how weak his programme is. |
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Post by profquatermass on Dec 29, 2017 10:32:56 GMT
I quite enjoyed The Suicide. Again, it was from a fairly new writer and I know I am repeating myself, but how else are they to gain the experience? Playwrights don't just pop out from nowhere: they have to be nurtured. In the last couple of years some of the best and most challenging theatre experiences I have had have been at the NT - The Flick, Sarah Kane's Cleansed (directed by Katie Mitchell), People Places and Things (which transferred to the West End where it had a very successful run), Barbershop Chronicles, Consent (although I didn't like this quite as much as critics and other theatregoers seemed to), Close to the Bone. I'll take any of these plays over "My Fair Lady" any day. New writers can get experience at the Royal Court, the Bush, Hampstead, the Arts, Soho, the Orange Tree, the Finborough or any of the other theatres in London whose funding depends on them producing a certain percentage of new writing. it doesn't *have* to be at the National |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 29, 2017 10:42:55 GMT
Depends what they're writing though. So many new plays are two- to four-handers, but it would be very boring for the future of theatre if that's where we stuck. And a two- to four-hander will fit in just about anywhere, but it's nice to know we have the NT for plays that would be simply too big for the Bush or Royal Court or Hampstead.
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