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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2017 11:58:41 GMT
I do tend to use 'lads' in a jokey-catch all manner on twitter etc but probably wouldn't use it in person (except to an actual group of mates...wait am I allowed to say mates now?!)
I think the point is though it's all very group/situation dependant. I've never worked at John Lewis (other posh department stores are available) but I'm sure the clientele there DOES feel differently about modes of address to say...a coffee shop populated by mainly 20-somethings. So saying to the coffee shop queue 'hey guys what can I get you?' is less likely to provoke outrage there.
FWIW I find 'Ladies and Gentleman' a stuffy and outdated sounding phrase personally, I often find myself looking around wondering who the lady is in that cos it probably ain't me.
Many theatres use it still though...will that go the way of TFL? (I've no objection to trying to be gender neutral and inclusive if that's what people have said they want I'm just not sure many people actually noticed before on the Underground!)
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2017 12:18:21 GMT
Peeps.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2017 12:18:59 GMT
Werin.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2017 12:22:48 GMT
I have a friend who uses that constantly. It's improved by the fact I reccently discovered a Peeps is a marshmallow sweet thing in America. So now I imagine him just eating those every time he says it. |
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Post by d'James on Jul 16, 2017 12:23:59 GMT
I like 'folks.' Hello 'folks.'
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2017 12:26:38 GMT
I find a resounding 'OI' is effective.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2017 13:18:41 GMT
Folks is a good one and fits all genres.
I've known senior staff get annoyed when Junior staff have called them Sir in the office. Sometimes new staff coming out of 6th form find it hard to transition to calling everyone by their first names after being at school and deferring to teachers.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2017 14:00:35 GMT
The woman who brought the use of "Ms" into the mainstream died recently - interesting history of the word in her obituary: www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2017/jul/07/sheila-michaels-who-brought-ms-into-mainstream-dies-aged-78Regarding "Sir" - there's a way US authority figures / security guards / border control officers have of using it that makes it sound really demeaning to the person they are addressing. I imagine for instance the security people who dragged that Doctor off the plane were saying "Sir, you need to leave now". |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2017 14:13:28 GMT
The above puts me in mind of two sides of the acadmemic spectrum. The first is academics who insist on any interaction being addressed with their proper title (Dr or Prof. etc) and NEVER their first name as that somehow insults their rank in life or similar. To which I say 'get over yourselves' and 'If I wanted to be addressed by title only I'd have joined the army'
Second there's the element of using 'Dr' and managing to make it sound condesending or mocking. In the work place when senior (often male) staff do it to younger women and manage to make it sound like they can't quite believe little Miss has a PhD. The other way of it is when non-academic types call you 'Dr' because they think it's funnny.
It's a bloody minefield out there I tell thee.
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Post by lynette on Jul 16, 2017 14:30:57 GMT
Sweet story a million years old: my tutorial group asked our prof in the first session to call us by our first names as he had been using Mr and Miss to address us. We were so revolutionary back then. But he said he couldn't possibly do that because then we would have to call him by his first name. In other words, the terms of address should be equal.
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Post by loureviews on Jul 17, 2017 6:41:47 GMT
I feel compelled to confess I do use 'Guys' actually more as a gender-neutral catch all. Same here after twenty plus years in HE. It is natural in that environment. |
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Post by BurlyBeaR on Jul 17, 2017 6:50:24 GMT
Calling males and female "guys" collectively has to be more non-inclusive (uninclusive?) than the original ladies and gentlemen doesn't it?
It also plays to the idea of the male being superior because you'd never call a mixed group "girls" would you.
Its also copying our American cousins, and there's quite enough of that going on already I think!
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Post by viserys on Jul 17, 2017 7:14:10 GMT
I like the slighty stuffy "Ladies and Gentlemen" as something quintessentially British. I don't mind "guys" though. German has an advantage here as in having the (very informal) word Leute (people) as in "Hallo Leute" instead of the male guys.
However, the only thing I find offensive is the antiquated Miss/Fräulein, since it feels like a brandmark for unmarried women who need to quickly find an owner (read: spouse). Why should we be announcing our marital status to the world? And why is it only females that need to carry this brandmark around while men are always just Mister? So either find something to tag unmarried males as well or do away with this. Luckily Fräulein is pretty much completely gone from German and it always makes me snort when it turns up in some American TV show (I think someone called Carrie Fräulein in the Berlin-season of Homeland...).
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2017 7:38:04 GMT
I think the 'quest' for a useful gender-neutral catch-all is often driven by women for those very reasons. We're either 'Miss' (condescending when you're over say...10) or 'Madam' which makes you sound about 100. And also are Miss/Mrs according to whether a man 'owns' you and associated judgement there. Oh AND if you use Ms then some men will also IMMEDIATLY call you a man-hating Feminist.
Meanwhile blokes bumble along with Sir/Mister quite happily...
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2017 7:40:05 GMT
Sweet story a million years old: my tutorial group asked our prof in the first session to call us by our first names as he had been using Mr and Miss to address us. We were so revolutionary back then. But he said he couldn't possibly do that because then we would have to call him by his first name. In other words, the terms of address should be equal. That's so sweet!
On the flip side I have an academic friend who refuses to let students call her by her first name as they won't 'respect' her without using 'Dr' every time they ...I don't know want the loo or something. I find that utterly ridiculous.
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Post by BurlyBeaR on Jul 17, 2017 7:44:30 GMT
Meanwhile blokes bumble along with Sir/Mister quite happily... Bumble?  ?? Do not mistake striding around the world procreating at will with our magnificent seed for "bumbling", dearest Miss. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2017 7:45:29 GMT
Meanwhile blokes bumble along with Sir/Mister quite happily... Bumble? ?? Do not mistake striding around the world procreating at will with our magnificent seed for "bumbling", dearest Miss. hahaha Oh dear yes my mistake! Pure calculated world dominance by Penis! Of course  |
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Post by viserys on Jul 17, 2017 7:45:44 GMT
Burly? The sound you hear is a lot of women sharpening knives..
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2017 8:36:22 GMT
Pure calculated world dominance by Penis! Is that a Trump joke? In some ways "Miss" is the female counterpart to "Mister". When I was at school the male teachers were all Mr Blank and the female ones were Miss Blank* regardless of marital status, which we often didn't know. The only exception was the matron of the school sanatorium, who was the wife of one of the geography teachers and was, by some unwritten convention, universally a Mrs. And in other formal contexts it seems common to use Miss + surname to refer to a woman. Actresses are always Miss, for example, except among fans. Mrs, on the other hand, now feels incredibly awkward and dated to me. Right now I can't think of any context where referring to someone as Mrs Marriedname would feel like the most appropriate form of address. * Blank was a remarkably common surname at our school. It was very confusing. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2017 8:41:35 GMT
I mean it wasn't intended as a Trump joke but if the orange tint fits...
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2017 8:49:09 GMT
According to etiquette guides, "Miss" should be the default for a woman unless/until you know otherwise. So if you're at a party full of toffs ever, you can take that with you. Not a fan of Miss or Mrs personally, as I don't belong to my father in my unmarried state, nor would I belong to my husband should I marry, so I'll keep Ms myself. I don't see the harm in gender-neutralising tannoy addresses. Seriously, where's the *harm*? Does it impact your day? Does it cause you injury? Does it hurt your feelings? (Sore necks from shaking your head in disbelief at "political correctness gone mad" don't count.) I don't mind being included in collective addresses that suggest the gender binary is real, or even ones that sound predominantly masculine, but as a cishet woman, I've never really felt excluded before so am obviously coming from a completely different place compared with people who hear "ladies and gentlemen" and feel like they'll never be accepted for who they are. |
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Post by BurlyBeaR on Jul 17, 2017 9:30:05 GMT
Try saying that with a lisp. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2017 10:13:55 GMT
And why is it only females that need to carry this brandmark around while men are always just Mister? Isn't it because, at the time that the titles came into use, married women couldn't legally own any money or property? On marrying, all her property passed to her husband's ownership. Strictly, if Miss Cheryl Moneybags married Mr Thomas Cole, she became Mrs Thomas Cole. So, Miss and Mrs denoted completely different legal classes of person, whereas there was only one such class of men, so all could be titled Mr. Of course, widows were legally permitted to own money and property. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2017 10:51:23 GMT
Miss/Mrs is completely pointless and offensive in this day and age. Never getting married anyway so Ms it will be, even if it does sound like you're doing a bee impression and half the time people mishear and write down Miss anyway. Sigh.
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Post by viserys on Jul 17, 2017 11:24:59 GMT
And why is it only females that need to carry this brandmark around while men are always just Mister? Isn't it because, at the time that the titles came into use, married women couldn't legally own any money or property? On marrying, all her property passed to her husband's ownership. Strictly, if Miss Cheryl Moneybags married Mr Thomas Cole, she became Mrs Thomas Cole. So, Miss and Mrs denoted completely different legal classes of person, whereas there was only one such class of men, so all could be titled Mr. Of course, widows were legally permitted to own money and property. That may well be. Of course the whole Mrs Thomas Cole thing, where the woman even gave up her own first name and just became a shadow of the husband was even worse. And either way, it's obsolete now, so I think women should just be united under one title and not separated into married and unmarried. |
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