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Post by Deleted on Jul 11, 2017 9:51:19 GMT
it's a slightly pessimistic viewpoint and that the middle group is larger than you suggest House prices, student loan repayments and post-Brexit economic fluctuations, that's what worries me, tibidabo. Hopefully a property crash will re-set the market, but I'm not holding my breath. I think we already do have that fourth type, and always have - first it was the inheriting aristocracy, and now, as you say, the rest of the self-made's offspring. I'm not wading in on the Ms Price issue. But I have to speak out and agree with Monkey there. So many people attempting to follow the 'good' or 'traditional' way of get education/train find a job/start at the bottom and work your way up. Just doesn't happen any more. It's more like a game of endless snakes and ladders. Get a job, fixed term contract and/or company has a cull, back to square one. The 'lateral' moves are hard to come by and you end up starting in a new place, at the bottom again. Meanwhile the traditional 'rise to the top' via hard work route is also shrinking with jobs etc.
Add to that rising rents, house market that's impossible to break into without a relative dying and I'm sorry but that middle group is fast becoming a generation of high skilled low paid workers.
I say this as someone both very (too much I admit) educated but also with 10 years plus admin/specialist experience who in 6 weeks will be probably working back in Starbucks again for want of any other options.
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Post by martin1965 on Jul 11, 2017 10:30:31 GMT
It's really hard to motivate kids when they think all they have to do is get a boob job and be loud, uber-confident and presume they are better than everyone else. The point is that children look up to her and people like her just make them wonder why they should have to study or work hard at something they like or are good at in order to get on in the world. On the other hand, I'd argue that she demonstrates what making the very most of the little you have can do. We really have 3 types of person in this country. A narrow band of well-connected, well off, who will lead great lives because they are at the top of the pile. A rapidly shrinking number of normal people, who can leave school, get a useful education / training and find a niche that will give them a lifestyle in time. A massive number who don't have and never will have a hope unless they are shown that there is another way. Yes, they need to know that if they have that personal internal resource they will need to work incredibly hard - but, they still need to know there is a way through. I'd go so far as to say that (and yes, I know it isn't any longer) "The American Dream" was always lacking in the UK, and we need our children, and indeed our older than that people who feel scrapped, to start feeling it and know how to use it to their advantage. It really isnt a 'massive number' |
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Post by martin1965 on Jul 11, 2017 10:31:45 GMT
We really have 3 types of person in this country. A narrow band of well-connected, well off, who will lead great lives because they are at the top of the pile. A rapidly shrinking number of normal people, who can leave school, get a useful education / training and find a niche that will give them a lifestyle in time. A massive number who don't have and never will have a hope unless they are shown that there is another way. Well it's one way of seeing things, though I would argue that it's a slightly pessimistic viewpoint and that the middle group is larger than you suggest. I would certainly hope so anyway. This analysis means we will soon have a fourth type - the grown-up offspring of the talentless reality stars - moneyed and senseless.....although I suppose you could argue that they would end up in the first group as they would have connections, though I'm not sure to what. Agree!! |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 11, 2017 10:50:46 GMT
Maybe martin1965 wants to try listening to those actually living it too! It's incredibly frustrating being part of that demographic and being told it just 'isn't an issue' by those who were lucky to escape it. However on the flip side those like Monkey who DO recognise what's going on around them and express concern, make me feel a bit better. |
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Post by Tibidabo on Jul 11, 2017 10:52:22 GMT
I'd be genuinely interested to know who on here would be happy to hold people such as Ms Price up as role models for their own children or grandchildren.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 11, 2017 11:12:42 GMT
Maybe martin1965 wants to try listening to those actually living it too! It's incredibly frustrating being part of that demographic and being told it just 'isn't an issue' by those who were lucky to escape it. However on the flip side those like Monkey who DO recognise what's going on around them and express concern, make me feel a bit better. There are a lot of us who do recognise it Emi. I feel very lucky to have been in the generation I was; with my background in today's world there is no way I could have afforded to buy a flat, whereas with two jobs (day job and a part time evening job) it was hard but possible. Grateful I had the luck and wish the young (without family money!) had better prospects 😢 |
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Post by infofreako on Jul 11, 2017 11:19:06 GMT
I also won't wade back into the Katie Price debate. I dont completely disagree with monkeys reasoning for respecting her and it is the media thats placed her where she is. Sure, as a businesswoman she has done very well to exploit the opportunities gifted her through this. She is still deep down the person she was before she became famous and that isnt a groip of characteristics I would hold up as role model worthy.
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Post by frosty on Jul 11, 2017 11:19:45 GMT
They're doing a 'Spice Girls experience' at the Kings in Portsmouth - no, really! To be fair, if it pulls in the punters and funds and allows them to take a chance on stuff that isn't quite so broad, then I don't have a problem with it. And I'm not averse to a bit of singalonga Abba or a Motown show...A lot of regional theatres have to rely on this stuff and their Panto to keep afloat and can't afford to stage a high brow 'miss'.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 11, 2017 11:23:46 GMT
I also won't wade back into the Katie Price debate. I dont completely disagree with monkeys reasoning for respecting her and it is the media thats placed her where she is. Sure, as a businesswoman she has done very well to exploit the opportunities gifted her through this. She is still deep down the person she was before she became famous and that isnt a groip of characteristics I would hold up as role model worthy. That's my stance too. I'm not saying she's a bastion of morality and someone to be aspired to in terms of the means she got started with BUT I do respect what she's made of herself out of nothing. And that she's clearly a shrewd businesswoman. And on the other hand at least she's open and honest about how she used her 'assets' to get where she is (or at least get started!) I don't see that as much different to going on a talent show or similar. |
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Post by martin1965 on Jul 11, 2017 11:25:01 GMT
It really isnt a 'massive number' Looking just at friends and neighbours children, and extrapolating - plus taking that and looking into the future... I'm less certain than you are martin1965. I do like your optimism, though, very much. Got to be glass half full. I have two children, one just graduated and one still at Uni, the much misreported fees issue didnt put them off. I am 50 odd and count myself as lower middle ckass, i have never felt lucky or "privileged" to be of a certain generation, its too too easy to go down the negative route im afraid. Anyhow Dr Emily should be glad im on train to Lahndan for the Angels alldayer tomorrow!😊 |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 11, 2017 11:28:03 GMT
I don't appreciate the condescending 'Dr Emily' in that post. There's no need for that.
And it's hard to be 'glass half full' when you have little hope of securing your own home, are job hunting every 6 months and with it taking pay cuts with at every new job. I've worked incredibly hard both at study and the roles I'm in, but increasingly without an 'in' and personal connection or 'leg up' it's once again incredibly difficult to get a job. And as a working class kid, funny enough I don't have many of them. I'm not proud and I've always taken whatever job I can to get by. But 10 years out of undergrad with nothing to show for it, unemployment again it's very difficult to sit here and take they 'got to be optimistic' view.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 11, 2017 13:06:42 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jul 11, 2017 13:08:37 GMT
Can we have a Thriller tribute show next?!
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Post by Deleted on Jul 11, 2017 13:56:43 GMT
House prices, student loan repayments and post-Brexit economic fluctuations, that's what worries me, tibidabo. Hopefully a property crash will re-set the market, but I'm not holding my breath. I think we already do have that fourth type, and always have - first it was the inheriting aristocracy, and now, as you say, the rest of the self-made's offspring. I'm not wading in on the Ms Price issue. But I have to speak out and agree with Monkey there. So many people attempting to follow the 'good' or 'traditional' way of get education/train find a job/start at the bottom and work your way up. Just doesn't happen any more. It's more like a game of endless snakes and ladders. Get a job, fixed term contract and/or company has a cull, back to square one. The 'lateral' moves are hard to come by and you end up starting in a new place, at the bottom again. Meanwhile the traditional 'rise to the top' via hard work route is also shrinking with jobs etc.
Add to that rising rents, house market that's impossible to break into without a relative dying and I'm sorry but that middle group is fast becoming a generation of high skilled low paid workers.
I say this as someone both very (too much I admit) educated but also with 10 years plus admin/specialist experience who in 6 weeks will be probably working back in Starbucks again for want of any other options.
I'm of a generation which had student grants, no loans or tuition fees, even got housing benefit and benefits during the summer (was it supplementary benefit?). Yet, too many who had similar that I know see no connection between where they are and what they were given to help them get there. Not just incomprehension but a belief that they would have got there anyway. I could never have got to university and prospered without the above but such rampant egotism is why we are where we are I'm afraid. That's not even mentioning those who went into buy to let. For the latter they say they did it because 'Brown took our pensions away' and that they are within their rights to put the burden onto those who are left with little choice but to pay the inflated rents they charge. Not their choice, forced to do it, you see. One thing the class system had was that it was sustainable because it moved from generation to generation, now what we have has societal collapse inbuilt and the next decade or so will have to see massive changes to try and stop it. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 11, 2017 14:01:03 GMT
See this is the other thing that gets me. I (and many others of my age group- I'm technically a 'Millennial' but just barely) are accused of 'blaming' the generation before or saying that had it easy or whatever. We're not. I don't resent anyone 'ahead of' or 'above me' who got their unless they're literally a Royal who got handed it or similar. We're just here saying 'hey we're a bit f***ed here' and the world has changed and the rules have changed and we're just trying to bloody well figure out how to have a job and a place to live.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 11, 2017 14:11:01 GMT
See this is the other thing that gets me. I (and many others of my age group- I'm technically a 'Millennial' but just barely) are accused of 'blaming' the generation before or saying that had it easy or whatever. We're not. I don't resent anyone 'ahead of' or 'above me' who got their unless they're literally a Royal who got handed it or similar. We're just here saying 'hey we're a bit f***ed here' and the world has changed and the rules have changed and we're just trying to bloody well figure out how to have a job and a place to live. We actually did have it easy. I agree that we can't be blamed for benefitting so much at the time but we should be blamed when not accepting that we did so or for putting the responsibility of sorting it onto succeeding generations. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 11, 2017 14:17:26 GMT
See this is the other thing that gets me. I (and many others of my age group- I'm technically a 'Millennial' but just barely) are accused of 'blaming' the generation before or saying that had it easy or whatever. We're not. I don't resent anyone 'ahead of' or 'above me' who got their unless they're literally a Royal who got handed it or similar. We're just here saying 'hey we're a bit f***ed here' and the world has changed and the rules have changed and we're just trying to bloody well figure out how to have a job and a place to live. We actually did have it easy. I agree that we can't be blamed for benefitting so much at the time but we should be blamed when not accepting that we did so or for putting the responsibility of sorting it onto succeeding generations. Can't fault you for that attitude at all! Wish more folks could acknowledge that, and try and help give a leg up to those left behind! |
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Post by johartuk on Jul 11, 2017 14:19:01 GMT
I also won't wade back into the Katie Price debate. I dont completely disagree with monkeys reasoning for respecting her and it is the media thats placed her where she is. Sure, as a businesswoman she has done very well to exploit the opportunities gifted her through this. She is still deep down the person she was before she became famous and that isnt a groip of characteristics I would hold up as role model worthy. That's my stance too. I'm not saying she's a bastion of morality and someone to be aspired to in terms of the means she got started with BUT I do respect what she's made of herself out of nothing. And that she's clearly a shrewd businesswoman. And on the other hand at least she's open and honest about how she used her 'assets' to get where she is (or at least get started!) I don't see that as much different to going on a talent show or similar. Katie Price is a classic example of being famous for selling every wind breakage to the media and for using her children to get attention for herself. Thanks to her and her ilk, we're now overrun by z-listers, whose only 'job' appears to be getting together with other z-listers, breeding, using the resulting offspring to make them £££££ via celeb mag photospreads and stories, splitting up (yet more £££££ to be made from selling the juicy details), getting together with a new z-lister...etc. Being a regular in the Daily Fail's 'Sidebar Of Shame' is what these people aspire to, and sadly, they use Katie Price as a template! The 'TV Talent Show' analogy is an interesting one, but for every fame seeker who auditions for a TV talent show, there are many more who have training/experience in their chosen field and who want to work as a singer or get into musical theatre or whatever. The TV Casting Shows illustrate the point well. Pretty much everyone who ended up getting through to the live shows (and many who didn't) had previous training/experience. I can only think of one person from those shows who's gone down the z-list route (Stephanie Davis). Everyone else seems to be getting on with their lives and careers without feeling the need to 'flaunt their bikini bodies', 'flash their pins', 'have a wardrobe malfunction' or 'slam someone' (usually on twitter) in the SoS! |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 11, 2017 14:25:35 GMT
For clarity I meant the types of people who go on Britain's (not) got Talent and X Factor without a discernible talent to show for it and then cash in on being a novelty etc. Not the folks who are actually talented using it as a platform. So your Jewards and the like of the world. So in that light getting your knockers out for the fail vs embarrassing yourself for youtube views aren't that different.
A genuine person in need of a break is of course another matter and shouldn't be conflated.
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Post by infofreako on Jul 11, 2017 18:01:11 GMT
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Post by Tibidabo on Jul 11, 2017 18:03:16 GMT
O.M.G. That should have come with a warning! (Edit: Sorry - it kind of did infofreako. Was reading too fast) I think that's the end of the discussion personally. Just UGH. Over and out. |
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Post by d'James on Jul 11, 2017 18:57:16 GMT
Oh dear. Can't believe they've given her another show. I thought she criticised Peter Andre for continuing to have their kids filmed by cameras; maybe it was just there were no offers for her.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 11, 2017 19:39:20 GMT
Also (this is WAY off topic now but since we're down the rabbit hole) I've always felt really sorry of Andre. Yes he married her, yes he's an idiot for that BUT he seems like a fairly decent guy. And dedicated to the kids (including the one that isn't his) And as the Smash Hits Tour 1997 attests, he could do a pretty decent concert back in the day. Not that I'd know. Obviously.
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Post by SageStageMgr on Jul 11, 2017 21:19:18 GMT
Also (this is WAY off topic now but since we're down the rabbit hole) I've always felt really sorry of Andre. Yes he married her, yes he's an idiot for that BUT he seems like a fairly decent guy. And dedicated to the kids (including the one that isn't his) And as the Smash Hits Tour 1997 attests, he could do a pretty decent concert back in the day. Not that I'd know. Obviously. I remember when you had credibility! ;-) |
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Post by kathryn on Jul 11, 2017 23:01:29 GMT
Also (this is WAY off topic now but since we're down the rabbit hole) I've always felt really sorry of Andre. Yes he married her, yes he's an idiot for that BUT he seems like a fairly decent guy. And dedicated to the kids (including the one that isn't his) And as the Smash Hits Tour 1997 attests, he could do a pretty decent concert back in the day. Not that I'd know. Obviously. I went to a Peter Andre concert once. A friend had a spare ticket she offered to me for free and I agreed to go with her for a giggle and so she wouldn't be on her own. He actually put on a pretty decent show - mainly of other people's music! The support act was terrible, though. It was this folksy duo whose claim to fame was that they'd once supported The Osmonds on tour - and announced this as if the audience of under-30s they were playing to would actually be impressed, in between seemingly endless renditions of obscure folksy guitar and fiddle music. Totally misjudged. |
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