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Post by paulbrownsey on Dec 1, 2017 17:08:59 GMT
It only has to be said by racists. I don't think you should accuse him of racism because he objects to an all-black cast. Indeed, I think there's something racist about the idea of staging it as something taking place among all those black folks. But that's not the same as colour-blind casting, which ignores race differences and doesn't try to emphasise race. Further to the matter of colour-blind casting, doesn't anyone remember that Sky Masterson was played by Clark Peters, who's black, in the NT's 1997 revival? Doing it *all* black is racist.
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Post by martin1965 on Dec 1, 2017 17:10:12 GMT
In places like Chester 98 percent of the population are white. 1) The ME in BAME stands for "minority ethnic" and so includes black, white and everything else. For example, Irish-heritage people are BAME. Many of them are white. 2) The audience of a theatre in Chester don't all reside in Chester. There isn't a big sign over the entrance saying: "CHESTER THEATRE FOR CHESTER RESIDENTS". Is there? 3) Aaaggghhhh!!!! And 4) Chester (or Caer) was invaded and governed by multi-ethnic Roman Empire people, two millennia ago. Mods how do i ignore posters? Thanx😡😡
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Post by paulbrownsey on Dec 1, 2017 17:11:10 GMT
Nobody here seems aware that when the National Theatre did Guys and Dolls in 1997, Sky Masterson was played by Clark Peters, who's black ... Oh yes I was. I didn't deny you were there. I said no-one had shown awareness that Masterson was played by a black actor. And that was true.
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Post by paulbrownsey on Dec 1, 2017 17:17:51 GMT
I don't think you should accuse him of racism because he objects to an all-black cast. I stand by it. To go as far as calling an all black cast "a disgrace", coupled with a Richard Littlejohnesque "It's PC gone mad" and an instance that "it has to be said" indicates to me a person with unsavoury views on race. He may think it's a disgrace as being racist--as involving a deliberate attempt to people the stage with actors of one race only. I agree that his use of "PC" is mildly ominous--people who use the phrase quite often have nasty attitudes--but not enough to be as conclusive as you suggest. "It has to be said" could spring from the view that casting it all black is itself racist.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 1, 2017 17:20:40 GMT
Bore off.
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Post by jadnoop on Dec 1, 2017 17:23:39 GMT
What I do disagree with is forcing theatres to have BAME representation in the front of house and backstage. If they don’t meet a certain quota they can be fined or lose funding. I'd be interested in seeing a source on that. However, I'm not sure why it's surprising or disagreeable when it comes to public funding that those funds should go to events and places that work towards the type of society we want to become. After all, the demand for funding greatly outstrips the supply, so it's necessary to somehow decide which projects are most deserving of funding. The reality is that in order to get public arts funding there are a whole series of boxes you need to tick. From my limited experience I can remember showing how your event aims to make the arts more accessible, more universal, and inclusive in terms of your audience was a big thing. Granted 'quotas' might be a crude means of achieving things like encouraging greater diversity in people going into the arts. However, the unfortunate reality is that softer means take ages to have any effect, if they do at all. You only need to look at the lack of diversity that still exists in some of the Oxbridge colleges to see that it's not easy to undo a huge and complex momentum.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 1, 2017 17:27:33 GMT
Mods how do i ignore posters? Thanx😡😡 Replying to their posts is probably a bad start.
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Post by sf on Dec 1, 2017 17:48:11 GMT
Doing it *all* black is racist. Good grief. Did I fall asleep and wake up in 1937?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 1, 2017 17:56:46 GMT
What I do disagree with is forcing theatres to have BAME representation in the front of house and backstage. If they don’t meet a certain quota they can be fined or lose funding. I'd be interested in seeing a source on that. I used to work as a public sector commissioner. It's just about unthinkable that any tendering process would be undertaken that doesn't require those bidding to demonstrate a commitment to equality and diversity. It strikes me as unlikely though that this commitment would take the form of racial quotas - they would be both politically volatile and near impossible to enforce. If you're really keen to start digging around the tendering documents, you may have to fake a registration to the Bravo platform to do so, but here would be a place to start - www.artscouncil.org.uk/supply-us
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Post by princeton on Dec 1, 2017 17:57:40 GMT
if they don’t meet a certain quota they can be fined or lose funding Says who? By which I mean I find it highly unlikely that any arts organisation would lose it funding, or worse, be fined because of imposed quotas on backstage and front of house staff. I'd like to know what organisations are giving out these diktats and which are in receipt of them. Of course may arts organisations are given funding on the basis of increasing diversity amongst its staff and audiences - but i've not heard of such specific quotas being imposed.
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Post by BurlyBeaR on Dec 1, 2017 18:53:04 GMT
I don't care who's doing it. I'm going because:- I have never seen this musical before, on stage or film, although I have heard the songs before. It's a pre-Christmas treat, after 3 months of bloody hard work. With my NUS card, it's £7 for the ticket - BARGAIN! I’m going in the new year in that HIDEOUS period in January when it’s dark, and cold, and Christmas is over and there’s nowt to look forward to.
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Post by martin1965 on Dec 1, 2017 19:05:27 GMT
Me too! Sat mat on 20 Jan, looking forward to it lots.
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Post by martin1965 on Dec 1, 2017 19:07:00 GMT
Mods how do i ignore posters? Thanx😡😡 Replying to their posts is probably a bad start. Very helpful, thanks
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Post by BurlyBeaR on Dec 1, 2017 19:10:47 GMT
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Post by paulbrownsey on Dec 1, 2017 20:37:49 GMT
Doing it *all* black is racist. Good grief. Did I fall asleep and wake up in 1937? No. It's racist because it depends on the thought: "Hey, there's these people of a certain race. Hey! Let's put it on and include no actors except people of THAT race. That shows just how anti-racist we are. Race--Oh, it never crosses our minds."
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Post by paulbrownsey on Dec 1, 2017 20:44:06 GMT
What I do disagree with is forcing theatres to have BAME representation in the front of house and backstage. If they don’t meet a certain quota they can be fined or lose funding. However, I'm not sure why it's surprising or disagreeable when it comes to public funding that those funds should go to events and places that work towards the type of society we want to become. But not everyone is likely to be interested in everything. Some arts events are likely to appeal only to people of a certain background. Why should *they* not get funding? And are there requirements, where funding goes, say, to a mela, that persons of all types must be attracted? I was at a (rather unexciting) exhibition of abstract art in Edinburgh. A rather apologetic official came up to us and asked would we fill out a form that they had to get visitors to complete as a condition of public funding. The form largely consisted of boxes to be ticked giving gender, race, disability (if any), etc. Most of the visitors I saw were white males. I am a white male. I rarely lie, but on this occasion I ticked the boxes that said I was a disabled black lesbian single mother.
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Post by Honoured Guest on Dec 1, 2017 21:45:49 GMT
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Post by sf on Dec 1, 2017 21:55:24 GMT
Good grief. Did I fall asleep and wake up in 1937? No. It's racist because it depends on the thought: "Hey, there's these people of a certain race. Hey! Let's put it on and include no actors except people of THAT race. That shows just how anti-racist we are. Race--Oh, it never crosses our minds." Have you ever considered the issue from any perspective OTHER than as a member of the dominant majority?
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Post by Honoured Guest on Dec 1, 2017 22:00:12 GMT
No. It's racist because it depends on the thought: "Hey, there's these people of a certain race. Hey! Let's put it on and include no actors except people of THAT race. That shows just how anti-racist we are. Race--Oh, it never crosses our minds." You are just making up utter rubbish! Are you Donald Trump? Just to return to truth for a moment, Talawa's Mission is in fact: "Talawa is the UK’s primary Black led touring theatre company. Our work is informed by the wealth and diversity of the Black British experience, and through that we create outstanding work by cultivating the best in emerging and established Black artists. We invest in talent, develop audiences and inspire dialogue with and within communities across the UK and internationally. By doing so, we enrich the cultural life of all."
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Post by theatrebag on Dec 2, 2017 11:45:18 GMT
An all black cast?? I think this is a disgrace and PC blind colour casting gone too far. What about an all white cast of The Lion King? Madness... I'm sorry but it has to be said. All this furore and showbizkid hasn't even had a chance to explain exactly what he meant by his comments. Showbizkid you have the floor...
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Post by paulbrownsey on Dec 2, 2017 12:15:33 GMT
No. It's racist because it depends on the thought: "Hey, there's these people of a certain race. Hey! Let's put it on and include no actors except people of THAT race. That shows just how anti-racist we are. Race--Oh, it never crosses our minds." Have you ever considered the issue from any perspective OTHER than as a member of the dominant majority? Yes, I have.
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Post by paulbrownsey on Dec 2, 2017 12:17:05 GMT
No. It's racist because it depends on the thought: "Hey, there's these people of a certain race. Hey! Let's put it on and include no actors except people of THAT race. That shows just how anti-racist we are. Race--Oh, it never crosses our minds." You are just making up utter rubbish! Are you Donald Trump? Just to return to truth for a moment, Talawa's Mission is in fact: "Talawa is the UK’s primary Black led touring theatre company. Our work is informed by the wealth and diversity of the Black British experience, and through that we create outstanding work by cultivating the best in emerging and established Black artists. We invest in talent, develop audiences and inspire dialogue with and within communities across the UK and internationally. By doing so, we enrich the cultural life of all." That may well be their mission. It doesn't mean it's not racist.
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Post by jadnoop on Dec 2, 2017 13:55:49 GMT
However, I'm not sure why it's surprising or disagreeable when it comes to public funding that those funds should go to events and places that work towards the type of society we want to become. But not everyone is likely to be interested in everything. Some arts events are likely to appeal only to people of a certain background. Why should *they* not get funding? And are there requirements, where funding goes, say, to a mela, that persons of all types must be attracted? I was at a (rather unexciting) exhibition of abstract art in Edinburgh. A rather apologetic official came up to us and asked would we fill out a form that they had to get visitors to complete as a condition of public funding. The form largely consisted of boxes to be ticked giving gender, race, disability (if any), etc. Most of the visitors I saw were white males. I am a white male. I rarely lie, but on this occasion I ticked the boxes that said I was a disabled black lesbian single mother. 1. "Some events are likely to appeal only to..." You're thinking about your interests and the arts as a one-way street, e.g. "I like theatre so I go to the theatre" but it's really not that simple. The stuff that we like isn't intrisically built into us. Our tastes are partly a reflection of what we're exposed to, what we feel is accessible to us, and what we believe we can be a part of. Using public funds to encourage people who might not traditionally go to the opera or the ballet or whatever to go along is part of what will (over time) encourage people to break down the old cliches about how certain artforms are only for certain people. 2. "Why should *they* not get funding?" No one has suggested that funding should *only* go towards stuff that appeals to everyone. You only need to look at where the money goes to see that that's not the case. At the end of the day though, if you have more people applying than you have money, then you need to decide between the somehow. And since it's public funds, then it makes sense that the money is given out in a way that somehow represents the public and the aims for society. I know that the guidelines vary between funding bodies (and within them, between different funding streams), but for what it's worth, in the small number I've applied to I've never seen quotas about diversity. 3. I am a white male ... I ticked the boxes that said I was a disabled black lesbian single mother. I don't know if you're being literal here. But in any case this childish act of rebellion kinda suggests that you're missing the entire point here. I guess we just have very different ways of looking at this.
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Post by paulbrownsey on Dec 2, 2017 15:16:04 GMT
But not everyone is likely to be interested in everything. Some arts events are likely to appeal only to people of a certain background. Why should *they* not get funding? And are there requirements, where funding goes, say, to a mela, that persons of all types must be attracted? I was at a (rather unexciting) exhibition of abstract art in Edinburgh. A rather apologetic official came up to us and asked would we fill out a form that they had to get visitors to complete as a condition of public funding. The form largely consisted of boxes to be ticked giving gender, race, disability (if any), etc. Most of the visitors I saw were white males. I am a white male. I rarely lie, but on this occasion I ticked the boxes that said I was a disabled black lesbian single mother. 1. "Some events are likely to appeal only to..." You're thinking about your interests and the arts as a one-way street, e.g. "I like theatre so I go to the theatre" but it's really not that simple. The stuff that we like isn't intrisically built into us. Our tastes are partly a reflection of what we're exposed to, what we feel is accessible to us, and what we believe we can be a part of. Using public funds to encourage people who might not traditionally go to the opera or the ballet or whatever to go along is part of what will (over time) encourage people to break down the old cliches about how certain artforms are only for certain people. 2. "Why should *they* not get funding?" No one has suggested that funding should *only* go towards stuff that appeals to everyone. You only need to look at where the money goes to see that that's not the case. At the end of the day though, if you have more people applying than you have money, then you need to decide between the somehow. And since it's public funds, then it makes sense that the money is given out in a way that somehow represents the public and the aims for society. I know that the guidelines vary between funding bodies (and within them, between different funding streams), but for what it's worth, in the small number I've applied to I've never seen quotas about diversity. 3. I am a white male ... I ticked the boxes that said I was a disabled black lesbian single mother. I don't know if you're being literal here. But in any case this childish act of rebellion kinda suggests that you're missing the entire point here. I guess we just have very different ways of looking at this. "You're thinking about your interests and the arts as a one-way street, e.g. "I like theatre so I go to the theatre" " No, I'm not. "Using public funds to encourage people who might not traditionally go to the opera or the ballet or whatever to go along is part of what will (over time) encourage people to break down the old cliches about how certain artforms are only for certain people." By all means, use public funds to *encourage*. Give out free opera tickets at black community centres or to people in the queue at the DWP. The trouble is that the sort of survey I referred to may well pave the way for, "No funds for you because you aren't attracting enough people of types B, C and D." "And since it's public funds, then it makes sense that the money is given out in a way that somehow represents the public and the aims for society." Giving out funds in a way that "represents the public" doesn't mean giving out funds only to events that attract people across every sector of society. And if the "aims of society" include that, then it shouldn't be in the "aims of society". "But in any case this childish act of rebellion kinda suggests that you're missing the entire point here. " It wasn't childish in the slightest. It was a principled act of doing my bit to circumvent any possibility that the organisers of the event in question would be denied future funding because they hadn't attracted enough people of types B, C, D and E. So I wasn't missing the point, let alone "the entire point".
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Post by jadnoop on Dec 2, 2017 16:18:40 GMT
edit: I had a longer post responding to your points, but I suspect this is one of those internet discussions that has no end; I think you're wrong, and you think I am and I doubt we'll reach a middle ground. So I've deleted it.
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Post by amadeus on Dec 3, 2017 21:20:40 GMT
Does anyone know if the walk from the Exchange to Manchester Piccadilly station is doable in 15/20 mins?? I'm thinking I'm going to have to miss the last 10 minutes of the show to catch a 22:28 train.
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Post by martin1965 on Dec 3, 2017 21:42:29 GMT
Does anyone know if the walk from the Exchange to Manchester Piccadilly station is doable in 15/20 mins?? I'm thinking I'm going to have to miss the last 10 minutes of the show to catch a 22:28 train. Easily in my experience
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Post by Jonnyboy on Dec 3, 2017 21:43:30 GMT
Does anyone know if the walk from the Exchange to Manchester Piccadilly station is doable in 15/20 mins?? I'm thinking I'm going to have to miss the last 10 minutes of the show to catch a 22:28 train. It’s doable in 15/20 but it’ll have to be a brisk walk!!
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Post by amadeus on Dec 3, 2017 22:02:19 GMT
Does anyone know if the walk from the Exchange to Manchester Piccadilly station is doable in 15/20 mins?? I'm thinking I'm going to have to miss the last 10 minutes of the show to catch a 22:28 train. It’s doable in 15/20 but it’ll have to be a brisk walk!! Brisk walking to catch trains just happens to be one talent I am possessed with!
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Post by BurlyBeaR on Dec 4, 2017 8:08:54 GMT
They’re doing 3 Sunday matinees in December.
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