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Post by oxfordsimon on Mar 30, 2019 0:08:51 GMT
Getting inclusivity right is not easy - you have to work at it.
When I did an analysis of the work of the (amateur) theatre company I work with here in Oxford, in over 200 productions over more than 60 years, we had only featured plays by 11 female writers. Directors over the same period - 50-50 M/F split - so not all bad.
Since I did that analysis, we have programmed the next few months and in a year of 6 shows, 4 have female authors. We chose on the basis of the best productions pitched to the committee - not to fill a quota or target. But it was nice to see more plays by women coming forward for selection.
Norris is making a number of bad decisions - and I do think he should step down for the sake of the future of the NT - but you have to look at a year in total rather than an individual season to see how balanced the wider picture is.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 30, 2019 0:09:32 GMT
The thing is, somewhere as reputable as the NT can afford to work on getting a strong balance of male and female writers and directors - we know they are happy to delay projects that aren’t quite ready until they are, and have the luxury of being able to really schedule (at least) privately well in advance to address issues like this.
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Post by samuelwhiskers on Mar 30, 2019 0:13:10 GMT
Women make up 50% of the population. It's insane how much of a disparity there is, and the idea that gender equality is a one-off thing, that they can cart a load of "lady writers" in for one season before returning to business as usual shows how deeply entrenched sexism is. This ballyhoo on lady writers blows up again, that article by the BBC makes it sound there is a conspiracy against the ladies. Sure if they want more lady writers then they need to write decent plays that get picked up, there has never been a limit/quota on male/female. Almeida to be ultra pc and jump on the bandwagon did a lady season recently and their commissioned play The Writer was simply atrocious. Equality should come about by quality and that is how I it should be, the gold standard. But that's simply not true. The argument that "if women playwrights are being overlooked it's obviously because they're just not writing decent plays" is absolute, total tosh. There are many, many wonderful plays that never get read because female writers are so overlooked. Female-authored plays that are massive hits on the fringe or festival circuit struggle to get transfers, where half-decent middling male-authored plays get snapped up. Male playwrights with a couple of okay fringe productions get offered large spaces, commissions, screen deals and agent representation far more and far faster than female playwrights with more substantial records (who are usually marginalised to studio spaces). And God knows there's plenty of utter dross by male writers that go straight to the Olivier or West End simply because of the name and status of the person involved. If you'd sat in on as many literary department and artistic director meetings as I have, you would not be so dismissive in your certainty that there is no agenda or quota. This is not a specifically female thing, but last year I personally witnessed a DepAD say, "This is a fantastic play, but the playwright is disabled and we've already fulfilled our minority quota with [play from an Asian writer]". Making explicitly clear that they would not programme more than one play by someone they perceived as "a minority" in one season, regardless of quality.
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Post by zahidf on Mar 30, 2019 0:25:04 GMT
I find it hard to believe that there are no good female writers or creative's the national could book between may to October this year
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Post by Jon on Mar 30, 2019 0:28:39 GMT
I don't get why people want Norris to step down, it's like hoping for someone to lose their job which is not on at all.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 30, 2019 0:47:39 GMT
If you'd sat in on as many literary department and artistic director meetings as I have, you would not be so dismissive in your certainty that there is no agenda or quota. I don’t doubt you at all, but I’d be interested to know what that agenda is then. I think most of us - or at least I do - just find it entirely alien to dismiss someones work entirely on the basis of their sex. Though as a Potterhead I know there has to be something to it - even Joanne Rowling had to change her name to J.K.Rowling because her publishers said boys won’t buy books written by girls. But at least those were kids - I can’t apply the same logic to adults and theatre. I saw Sondheim at the NT earlier this evening and I got talking to a friend afterwards about female composers and deciding that it’s strange a female composer has never really emerged as a household name as familiar as Hammerstein, Sondheim, Lloyd-Weber. Even Sondheim name dropped a lot of his writing collaborators and as far as I recall they were all men too.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 30, 2019 0:52:15 GMT
I don't get why people want Norris to step down, it's like hoping for someone to lose their job which is not on at all. Yet half the country is hoping the Prime Minister loses hers! It’s not about wanting someone to lose their job, but someone being the right person for the job. People in high profile roles will always be scrutinised as to their ability to do the job without it ever actually being personal.
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7,189 posts
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Post by Jon on Mar 30, 2019 1:10:12 GMT
If you'd sat in on as many literary department and artistic director meetings as I have, you would not be so dismissive in your certainty that there is no agenda or quota. I don’t doubt you at all, but I’d be interested to know what that agenda is then. I think most of us - or at least I do - just find it entirely alien to dismiss someones work entirely on the basis of their sex. Though as a Potterhead I know there has to be something to it - even Joanne Rowling had to change her name to J.K.Rowling because her publishers said boys won’t buy books written by girls. But at least those were kids - I can’t apply the same logic to adults and theatre. I saw Sondheim at the NT earlier this evening and I got talking to a friend afterwards about female composers and deciding that it’s strange a female composer has never really emerged as a household name as familiar as Hammerstein, Sondheim, Lloyd-Weber. Even Sondheim name dropped a lot of his writing collaborators and as far as I recall they were all men too. Jeanine Tesori is the only one I can think of who has seen mainstream success with musicals in recent times.
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Post by Phantom of London on Mar 30, 2019 1:24:47 GMT
Women make up 50% of the population. It's insane how much of a disparity there is, and the idea that gender equality is a one-off thing, that they can cart a load of "lady writers" in for one season before returning to business as usual shows how deeply entrenched sexism is. This ballyhoo on lady writers blows up again, that article by the BBC makes it sound there is a conspiracy against the ladies. Sure if they want more lady writers then they need to write decent plays that get picked up, there has never been a limit/quota on male/female. Almeida to be ultra pc and jump on the bandwagon did a lady season recently and their commissioned play The Writer was simply atrocious. Equality should come about by quality and that is how I it should be, the gold standard. But that's simply not true. The argument that "if women playwrights are being overlooked it's obviously because they're just not writing decent plays" is absolute, total tosh. There are many, many wonderful plays that never get read because female writers are so overlooked. Female-authored plays that are massive hits on the fringe or festival circuit struggle to get transfers, where half-decent middling male-authored plays get snapped up. Male playwrights with a couple of okay fringe productions get offered large spaces, commissions, screen deals and agent representation far more and far faster than female playwrights with more substantial records (who are usually marginalised to studio spaces). And God knows there's plenty of utter dross by male writers that go straight to the Olivier or West End simply because of the name and status of the person involved. If you'd sat in on as many literary department and artistic director meetings as I have, you would not be so dismissive in your certainty that there is no agenda or quota. This is not a specifically female thing, but last year I personally witnessed a DepAD say, "This is a fantastic play, but the playwright is disabled and we've already fulfilled our minority quota with [play from an Asian writer]". Making explicitly clear that they would not programme more than one play by someone they perceived as "a minority" in one season, regardless of quality. I cannot comment on individual cases, but I am sure the National Theatre literary department would just judge the hundred of scripts they get on just one criteria. Also scripts are subjective, because a play might appeal to you, it might not appeal to others. There is a small niche of female playwrights who are generally fantastic and have had the vision to write stuff that comes straight from the top draw, I don’t need to name them, we all know who they are. Sure stuff written by men are also subjective and I can vouch I have sat through some rubbish, where are Martin Crimp and David Hare 2 recent offenders! Then again I sat through Top Girls this week at the National both done by female writer and director, and suffered a great deal as did most of the audience and then the argument for ladies is a hard one to make out! I have nothing against lady playwrights or creatives but as I have said it would be wrong to have a quota system and the benchmark has to be quality. Females being under represented in arts is argument raging going across the board in the art world, of the 2300 paintings in the National Gallery only 21 are by ladies, the National this month have dedicated all their 10 minute talks to lady artists. I managed to go to two by French artists Rosa Bonheur and Elizabeth Louise Viglee Le Brun (Self Portrait and one of my favourite in the whole collection the hat, hair and the lace on the dress are mind blowing brilliant.) Chances is that if I wasn’t so ill earlier this month I would have attended all 4. The National have just purchased a painting by Artemisia Gentileschi a Self Portrait As Saint Catherine, to address the imbalance, but in reality this imbalance will never be addressed as all the famous painters are men and are more likely to be purchased/inherited/Loaned/Gifted in the future. The Self Portrait As Saint Catherine is quite wonderful.
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Post by showgirl on Mar 30, 2019 5:00:21 GMT
Tweet from the Finborough Theatre:
"Announcing our new season very soon - with two thirds by female playwrights! You know, the ones the National didn’t want..."
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Post by NeilVHughes on Mar 30, 2019 8:04:43 GMT
Going to the Art of the Artistic Director talk at the National next week where Rufus is one of the guests, it will be interesting to see if this issue is raised.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 30, 2019 8:09:47 GMT
Going to the Art of the Artistic Director talk at the National next week where Rufus is one of the guests, it will be interesting to see if this issue is raised. It will be, of course, but he will point out the great work done by The National over the last few years to address sexual balance and, more than likely, the women ADs on stage with him will agree. How sad is it that the World we currently live in won't give this as much coverage as someone with good intentions but terribly wrong saying that the National is sexist? Enjoy the Platform by the way. It should be interesting and if I have one resentment of my current job not being in the middle of the City for the first time in 25 years its caused by not being able to attend these wonderful talks.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 30, 2019 8:13:23 GMT
I don't get why people want Norris to step down, it's like hoping for someone to lose their job which is not on at all. He's not been a huge success but few of the previous incumbents got of to a great start and there were questions about their position for most for the first couple of years of their reigns.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 30, 2019 10:21:51 GMT
This ballyhoo on lady writers blows up again, that article by the BBC makes it sound there is a conspiracy against the ladies. Sure if they want more lady writers then they need to write decent plays that get picked up, there has never been a limit/quota on male/female. Almeida to be ultra pc and jump on the bandwagon did a lady season recently and their commissioned play The Writer was simply atrocious. Equality should come about by quality and that is how I it should be, the gold standard. I have been on record on saying that Marianne Elliot would be my second choice as artistic director of the Nash, with only Stephen Daltry just slightly ahead, both have sighted personal commitments why they cannot do the role, that’s why I think it would be excellent if they both shared the role, when it comes available. The Writer was my favourite play of last year. Dance Nation, also in that season, was also in my top five. By any yardstick, this season was highly successful and went some way towards redressing the balance.
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Post by zahidf on Mar 30, 2019 10:39:15 GMT
This ballyhoo on lady writers blows up again, that article by the BBC makes it sound there is a conspiracy against the ladies. Sure if they want more lady writers then they need to write decent plays that get picked up, there has never been a limit/quota on male/female. Almeida to be ultra pc and jump on the bandwagon did a lady season recently and their commissioned play The Writer was simply atrocious. Equality should come about by quality and that is how I it should be, the gold standard. I have been on record on saying that Marianne Elliot would be my second choice as artistic director of the Nash, with only Stephen Daltry just slightly ahead, both have sighted personal commitments why they cannot do the role, that’s why I think it would be excellent if they both shared the role, when it comes available. The Writer was my favourite play of last year. Dance Nation, also in that season, was also in my top five. By any yardstick, this season was highly successful and went some way towards redressing the balance. The writer was good and I agree dance nation was excellent.
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Post by zahidf on Mar 30, 2019 10:39:25 GMT
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Post by samuelwhiskers on Mar 30, 2019 10:46:17 GMT
If you'd sat in on as many literary department and artistic director meetings as I have, you would not be so dismissive in your certainty that there is no agenda or quota. I don’t doubt you at all, but I’d be interested to know what that agenda is then. I think most of us - or at least I do - just find it entirely alien to dismiss someones work entirely on the basis of their sex. Though as a Potterhead I know there has to be something to it - even Joanne Rowling had to change her name to J.K.Rowling because her publishers said boys won’t buy books written by girls. But at least those were kids - I can’t apply the same logic to adults and theatre. I saw Sondheim at the NT earlier this evening and I got talking to a friend afterwards about female composers and deciding that it’s strange a female composer has never really emerged as a household name as familiar as Hammerstein, Sondheim, Lloyd-Weber. Even Sondheim name dropped a lot of his writing collaborators and as far as I recall they were all men too. Primarily subconscious bias I think. I am sure the National Theatre literary department would just judge the hundred of scripts they get on just one criteria. You are wrong. You seem very "sure" about things you have zero experience of.
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Post by Phantom of London on Mar 30, 2019 11:20:47 GMT
I am very “sure” the big producing houses won’t pass over a great script because they are written by a lady, that even comes with zero experience.
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Post by Phantom of London on Mar 30, 2019 11:23:02 GMT
Great promotion for both and meets the National equality targets.
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Post by asfound on Mar 30, 2019 12:01:34 GMT
Women make up 50% of the population. It's insane how much of a disparity there is, and the idea that gender equality is a one-off thing, that they can cart a load of "lady writers" in for one season before returning to business as usual shows how deeply entrenched sexism is. The demographics of the population mean precisely nothing in a niche like playwriting. If scripts are judged on merit and not quotas and tokenism then this is going to happen occasionally. Sometimes, as in last season, the majority of the writers will be women. In others, most will be men. It might even occur that it just so happens that they are all one or the other! It is one season, take it easy. Now I know it's hard to be level headed with the media whipping everyone into a frenzy but you have built up something like a conspiracy theory untroubled by facts or evidence. Tempting as it might be to join the outrage bandwagon to feel like a part of something, it's important to take a step back and be objective. Primarily subconscious bias I think. Ah, it always comes down to these vague, nebulous, unfalsifiable notions, doesn't it? The kind that can be used to support or dismiss anything.
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Post by samuelwhiskers on Mar 30, 2019 12:37:59 GMT
Scripts are not chosen based on merit, and the well-studied and researched concept of "subconscious bias" is neither nebulous nor unverifiable. I am very “sure” the big producing houses won’t pass over a great script because they are written by a lady, that even comes with zero experience. Your posts are very sweet, but incredibly naive. The chance of a script by an inexperienced female writer even being read is slim. Only a handful of theatres have truly open submission policies (the Court does, of course) but generally they won't programme work by a writer unfamiliar to them, regardless of quality. That's simply not how programming works.
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Post by zahidf on Mar 30, 2019 12:42:37 GMT
At least they haven't got the bridge theatres 'literary department '...
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Post by sf on Mar 30, 2019 13:39:58 GMT
At least they haven't got the bridge theatres 'literary department '... To be fair to the Bridge, the best thing I've seen there was written by a woman. Or rather, adapted by a woman from a novel written by another woman.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 30, 2019 14:36:26 GMT
Joanne Rowling had to change her name to J.K.Rowling because her publishers said boys won’t buy books written by girls So why did my generation, boys and girls, buy so much Enid Blyton, Betsy Byars, Gene Kemp etc? Because they were amazingly well-written stories. My argument is that the barriers for female writers must therefore have grown higher far more recently than people suspect, perhaps as a backlash to the growing equality movement? Just a thought. And one other thought, the Margaret Atwood evening in September has to be about the fastest selling NT Live ever, surely? But even further back we have the Brontë sisters publishing work under male pseudonyms. I can’t imagine kids were aware of equality movement in the 90s when Harry Potter first appeared either. It is interesting JKR chose a male pseudonym when she started writing her Strike novel series - do male writers sell more detective novels than women? I’ve no idea. I would however argue quality wins out. Harry Potter sort of sold well, and I was obsessed with Enid Blyton in the mid 90s - my primary school librarian (who was also an old family friend) used to try her best to get me to read something other than The Famous Five or Secret Seven - when I finished them all, I’d just go back to the start and do it all again (with a break for Dahl in the middle).
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Post by n1david on Mar 30, 2019 14:38:53 GMT
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