33 posts
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Post by tom08 on Dec 3, 2016 8:07:27 GMT
Apparently Hamilton is spreading all over the world now. A Dutch and/or German production is being prepared for opening in 2-3 years. Despite being an amazing show, I am really wondering how it will be perceived by Dutch and German audiences who do not have any affinity with American history.
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834 posts
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Post by Steffi on Dec 3, 2016 10:32:33 GMT
So far the German translation of almost every show I've seen has ranged from average to bad to completely cringeworthy. I dread to think how they are even trying to do justice to the lyrics of Hamilton!
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Post by Deleted on Dec 3, 2016 11:15:56 GMT
I don't think the subject matter will be an issue, because Dutch, Belgian, Scandinavian people can really be considered as global citizens because of the fact that their knowledge of languages is very good. Which is mainly because they watch many American/British movies and TV shows, yet they don't dub them. That means that they will learn English very well by watching these things whether they want to or not.
The translation however will most likely suck. Also mainly because people in this area are used to hearing stuff in English. And also because Hamilton has some of the most complicated lyrics ever written.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 4, 2016 11:07:32 GMT
According to a recent interview with Lin-Manuel Miranda, most Americans aren't really aware of the history either. People really need to stop asking if the fact it's about American history is going to put off international audiences, it's a complete non-question. Has anyone honestly ever said "well I've heard Les Mis is brilliant, and I love the songs I've heard from it, but I don't know anything about French history, so I'm going to stay away"? Come on now.
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3,057 posts
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Post by ali973 on Dec 4, 2016 13:19:16 GMT
Thank you, Baemax. American history is irrelevant. The show is not just a success in the US, it is a global phenomenon at this point.
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1,064 posts
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Post by bellboard27 on Dec 4, 2016 13:34:45 GMT
Let's not judge the translation(s) before they are written. Who knows, perhaps they will be an improvement.
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4,369 posts
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Post by Michael on Dec 4, 2016 13:50:36 GMT
Did you ever suffer through the German version of an international show you love and know by heart?
The "old" shows (namely Phantom and Cats) were translated well, but the translation of every newer show is so bad that it hurts. The biggest problem is that they don't only translate the show but also adopt and change it for the German market. Add the fact on top that they regularly cast foreign actors with next to no knowledge of German who only learned their part phonetically and who thus don't understand what they're saying.
They even managed to make me hate Avenue Q - and it's one of my favourite shows. And yes, I should have known better and shouldn't have even gone.
Clearly there's a reason why I fly over to the UK so regularly to get my theatre fix. And I think it's the same for most (if not all) of the other German members.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 4, 2016 18:03:50 GMT
Did you ever suffer through the German version of an international show you love and know by heart? The "old" shows (namely Phantom and Cats) were translated well, but the translation of every newer show is so bad that it hurts. The biggest problem is that they don't only translate the show but also adopt and change it for the German market. Add the fact on top that they regularly cast foreign actors with next to no knowledge of German who only learned their part phonetically and who thus don't understand what they're saying. They even managed to make me hate Avenue Q - and it's one of my favourite shows. And yes, I should have known better and shouldn't have even gone. Clearly there's a reason why I fly over to the UK so regularly to get my theatre fix. And I think it's the same for most (if not all) of the other German members. It's the same in Belgium, apart from bringing over people who don't speak the language. (But instead of that they insist on casting TV stars who aren't the greatest singers). People who have never had to experience a terrible translation of a show they loved so much in its original language can never understand it. We already anticipate that a translation will be bad because we've just learned that from experience. I too go to the UK as often as possible to see some shows. I hope to move there next year to be closer to the action. I just can't take the poor quality of Belgian theatre anymore...
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Post by The Matthew on Dec 4, 2016 18:36:53 GMT
I just can't take the poor quality of Belgian theatre anymore... Is there much theatre in Belgium? Many years ago I went over to Antwerp to see Romeo en Julia - van Haat tot Liefde several times. The show was extraordinarily popular and extended four times, and the reason it was able to extend was because following the show's original end date the theatre was only reserved for about two weeks out of the next four or five months. It struck me as quite strange that the main theatre in one of the main cities in Flanders would be dark for about 80-90% of the time.
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2,576 posts
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Post by viserys on Dec 4, 2016 18:36:53 GMT
Belgians and Dutch are better at foreign languages and from what I can tell more open minded - virtually every German musical fan I know has slagged off Hamilton without having even seen it. They hear "hip hop" and it's basically dead to them because musicals have to have big weepy ballads and big stage sets and some pseudo melodrama.
Shows that should have sold easily have died and failed in Germany, I cannot envision any scenario in which Hamilton would run and sell well in a German translation. As the others here already said, German translations are usually terrible, the cast often consists of foreigners who can barely get their lines across and then add the German disdain for anything out of the ordinary musical fan plus the high prices and it's dead on arrival.
Hamilton should tour in English with surtitles, it's the only way I can see it succeed.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 4, 2016 19:32:39 GMT
I just can't take the poor quality of Belgian theatre anymore... Is there much theatre in Belgium? Many years ago I went over to Antwerp to see Romeo en Julia - van Haat tot Liefde several times. The show was extraordinarily popular and extended four times, and the reason it was able to extend was because following the show's original end date the theatre was only reserved for about two weeks out of the next four or five months. It struck me as quite strange that the main theatre in one of the main cities in Flanders would be dark for about 80-90% of the time. Sadly enough there hardly is any decent theatre on in Belgium. We have all the right infrastructure and stuff. According to wikipedia the Stadsschouwburg in Antwerp even has the biggest (conventional) theatre stage in Europe. But sadly enough it's true that the main theatres don't have real theatre pieces on most of the time. They are used for concerts, comedy shows etc. more than they are used for musicals or plays. It's really sad. Most musicals only run for a month, and the worst part is that even if it runs for just a month, it's usually just Fridays and weekends. It's really depressing. It used to be a lot better. I hear my parents talk about the shows they saw here in the 90's. Les Mis, Phantom, Cats etc. had decent runs of about 6 months, which is quite long for such a small country (especially considering the fact that it's divided in two on a linguistic level. So a Dutch language production can only play in the Northern part because they don't speak Dutch in the Southern part). But now all of that seems to be gone. The government yet again cut subsidies for the arts a few months ago. It just keeps getting worse. A few years ago there seemed to be a glimmer of hope when international tours started coming to Ostend in the summer. Cats and Evita were quite good. The year after that was Mamma Mia, which was okay. But this year it was Dirty Dancing, and next year we're getting Footloose. They just won't put anything on anymore unless it's well known with the big crowds. I'm praying they'll bring over the international tour of Wicked, but it seems to be getting more and more unlikely. Sorry for the rant, but it's really depressing to live here being a theatre lover.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 4, 2016 19:34:08 GMT
Hamilton should tour in English with surtitles, it's the only way I can see it succeed. Yes, that would be great. They should just do an international tour. We've been getting international tours in Belgium for the past few years, and the subtitles always worked well.
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Post by Phantom of London on Dec 4, 2016 22:41:21 GMT
Thank you, Baemax. American history is irrelevant. The show is not just a success in the US, it is a global phenomenon at this point. Actually it isn't.
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Post by ali973 on Dec 5, 2016 2:04:27 GMT
Yes, yes it is. People overseas who keep up with current popular trends know what Hamilton is.
The bottom line is, this "concern" that it may not resonate outside of the US because it's about American history is nonsense. Americans don't know much about American history, let alone care or have much knowledge of Alexander Hamilton prior to the musical.
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2,576 posts
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Post by viserys on Dec 5, 2016 5:21:19 GMT
Most musicals only run for a month, and the worst part is that even if it runs for just a month, it's usually just Fridays and weekends. It's really depressing. It used to be a lot better. I hear my parents talk about the shows they saw here in the 90's. Les Mis, Phantom, Cats etc. had decent runs of about 6 months, which is quite long for such a small country This is true. I wanted to see 14-18 in Mechelen but the dates didn't work for me and they didn't extend. It seemed a very short run for what was such a big production. I remember the days when Belgium produced its own great musicals like Tintin/Kuifje and Daens in Antwerp plus bringing in international shows like Les Mis, Cats, Elisabeth, Notre Dame de Paris and so on. These days all I'm seeing in Belgium are the big French shows when they stop at the Forest National in Brussels and the wonderful operas in Liège, but things in Flanders have been sadly dead for years. Although the same is true for the Netherlands, we used to see 3-4 shows there per year on tour and go to Amsterdam or Scheveningen once in a while but they now only recycle their own shows or do fairly lame productions like Grease with canned music. I think the "big" musicals of the 80s and 90s (Cats, Phantom, Les Mis) etc sparked a big boom in many European countries and led to a short strong growth in home-grown musicals, then fizzled out again.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 5, 2016 8:07:20 GMT
Most musicals only run for a month, and the worst part is that even if it runs for just a month, it's usually just Fridays and weekends. It's really depressing. It used to be a lot better. I hear my parents talk about the shows they saw here in the 90's. Les Mis, Phantom, Cats etc. had decent runs of about 6 months, which is quite long for such a small country This is true. I wanted to see 14-18 in Mechelen but the dates didn't work for me and they didn't extend. It seemed a very short run for what was such a big production. I remember the days when Belgium produced its own great musicals like Tintin/Kuifje and Daens in Antwerp plus bringing in international shows like Les Mis, Cats, Elisabeth, Notre Dame de Paris and so on. These days all I'm seeing in Belgium are the big French shows when they stop at the Forest National in Brussels and the wonderful operas in Liège, but things in Flanders have been sadly dead for years. Although the same is true for the Netherlands, we used to see 3-4 shows there per year on tour and go to Amsterdam or Scheveningen once in a while but they now only recycle their own shows or do fairly lame productions like Grease with canned music. I think the "big" musicals of the 80s and 90s (Cats, Phantom, Les Mis) etc sparked a big boom in many European countries and led to a short strong growth in home-grown musicals, then fizzled out again. Yeah, it's very sad. 14-18 was actually an extremely successful production in Belgian terms, with a much longer run than Belgian shows usually have. There's a glimmer of hope with a translated version of Evita this year, also the first non-English version of Chaplin. And next year a tour of JCS and Cats coming over (ALW overkill though). As I mentioned before, I hope they bring over the tour of Wicked and it does well, because that would mean they're willing to bring over stuff that isn't necessarily extremely well-known with the general public (which Wicked isn't in Belgium).
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Post by 49thand8th on Dec 5, 2016 19:00:50 GMT
Apparently Hamilton is spreading all over the world now. A Dutch and/or German production is being prepared for opening in 2-3 years. Any source you can link to? (Even if it's not English; I just want to see.)
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Post by Deleted on Dec 5, 2016 20:23:21 GMT
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4,369 posts
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Post by Michael on Dec 5, 2016 20:37:49 GMT
I don't speak Dutch, and yet I understood the article
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Post by Deleted on Dec 5, 2016 21:08:35 GMT
I don't speak Dutch, and yet I understood the article It's very similar to German. I understood a lot of German before I learned it at school.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 5, 2016 22:01:33 GMT
I picked up a lot of (not very useful) Dutch vocab from Ivo van Hove's Kings Of War. I'm expecting to be fully conversant by the end of The Roman Tragedies.
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Post by viserys on Dec 6, 2016 7:22:00 GMT
At least this article only mentions Stage Entertainment preparing it for the Netherlands and not for Germany. Maybe they want to test it there? After Billy Elliot flopped in the Netherlands, they released the rights (I think) and now we're getting the English-language tour of Billy Elliot instead of a German-language ensuite production. Could be the same for Hamilton.
This said, I still don't see Hamilton work in translation. Dutch rap? Oh please.
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Post by Anniek on Dec 6, 2016 9:06:42 GMT
I tried translating it into Dutch, it's impossible. The Netherlands first have to get their game back up, with decent productions, casting and sets before I'm going to believe they can pull off something like Hamilton. Lately there's been massively produced, but only a handful were actually quality-shows worth seeing. Which is a pity, because I know it's not impossible in NL to make something amazing.
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Post by aksis on Dec 6, 2016 12:07:18 GMT
My first reaction when I heard this news was NO!! And that has not changed. I do think that the lyrics can be translated. Specially as Lin Manuel Miranda made a whole book full of notes what the meaning behind the lyrics are. But I am convinced they will not put the right person(s) on translating and it will be a mess. Things will get lost that make the songs interesting to listen to. So I keep hoping they will decide not to do it and have the American tour in Carré for 3 months.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 6, 2016 13:00:59 GMT
My first reaction when I heard this news was NO!! And that has not changed. I do think that the lyrics can be translated. Specially as Lin Manuel Miranda made a whole book full of notes what the meaning behind the lyrics are. But I am convinced they will not put the right person(s) on translating and it will be a mess. Things will get lost that make the songs interesting to listen to. So I keep hoping they will decide not to do it and have the American tour in Carré for 3 months. I can't wait until they finally announce the new Broadway aan de Amstel show. They said they'd try to announce it before the summer of this year...
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2,576 posts
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Post by viserys on Dec 6, 2016 13:27:30 GMT
My first reaction when I heard this news was NO!! And that has not changed. I do think that the lyrics can be translated. Specially as Lin Manuel Miranda made a whole book full of notes what the meaning behind the lyrics are. But I am convinced they will not put the right person(s) on translating and it will be a mess. Things will get lost that make the songs interesting to listen to. So I keep hoping they will decide not to do it and have the American tour in Carré for 3 months. I can't wait until they finally announce the new Broadway aan de Amstel show. They said they'd try to announce it before the summer of this year... Hell yea. I mean, when Pippin opened, they made so much noise about this becoming an annual thing and it's gone really quiet since. Perhaps they couldn't get the shows they were hoping for? "Untranslateable" shows like Book of Mormon spring to mind or indeed Hamilton at some stage.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 6, 2016 13:58:36 GMT
I can't wait until they finally announce the new Broadway aan de Amstel show. They said they'd try to announce it before the summer of this year... Hell yea. I mean, when Pippin opened, they made so much noise about this becoming an annual thing and it's gone really quiet since. Perhaps they couldn't get the shows they were hoping for? "Untranslateable" shows like Book of Mormon spring to mind or indeed Hamilton at some stage. I'm expecting something like Something Rotten. Maybe we need a separate thread for this topic
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2,576 posts
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Post by viserys on Dec 6, 2016 14:15:38 GMT
Maybe Though I guess we can only speculate right now... I would really welcome Something Rotten as I purposely did not see it in New York as I had read somewhere it would come to London. Instead I saw the dull American in Paris which DOES come to London now while Something Rotten is in limbo.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 6, 2016 14:18:31 GMT
Maybe Though I guess we can only speculate right now... I would really welcome Something Rotten as I purposely did not see it in New York as I had read somewhere it would come to London. Instead I saw the dull American in Paris which DOES come to London now while Something Rotten is in limbo. Just made a thread for it I like to speculate
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