5,690 posts
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Post by lynette on Oct 25, 2016 19:24:44 GMT
HG get a grip. And let us remember that Ms Rice said at the start that she didn't know much Shakespeare. Interestingly, Rylance didn't think Willie wrote the plays though I do think he made a decent job of acting in and producing 'em. Can we have someone who loves Shakespeare, the bloke from Stratford, who knows Shakespeare but who is open to new ideas and research and who has an inkling of business acumen. ( job description for any job imo really)
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782 posts
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Post by rumbledoll on Oct 25, 2016 19:32:36 GMT
Although Rylance doesn't think it's Will it's safe to say he still loves the plays dearly (obviously) - he is just open to reasonable doubt as any thinking human being should be I suppose.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 25, 2016 20:03:52 GMT
There is reasonable doubt and reasonable doubt, I'd put the authorship 'question' at the same level as the Loch Ness monster existing. Rylance goes way beyond that level and it diminishes him and other sceptics once you do your own research into the pile of evidence that William Shakespeare of Stratford being the author is added up.
Much more interesting and backed up by analysis is the extent of collaboration, Marlowe for the Henry VI plays, Middleton's later additions to All's Well and Macbeth and now that Shakespeare did, indeed, have a hand in Arden of Faversham.
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4,153 posts
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Post by kathryn on Oct 25, 2016 20:29:55 GMT
I love Rylance and Jacobi as actors, but they do show that great actors make for terrible literary historians.
However, at least the reason why they don't believe that Shakespeare wrote the plays is that they just love and admire them so much that they can't believe they were written by a commoner with limited formal education. If they loved the plays less they probably wouldn't be nutty enough to believe that anyone else wrote them. So I forgive them.
Glad to see I'm not the only one wondering what the problem is with the Globe attracting tourists. It was built because of a tourist, after all. I'm sure we've all been to theatres as tourists before. It's some strange form of snobbery that denigrates an audience for being tourists rather than locals.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 25, 2016 22:02:17 GMT
I can forgive Rylance, as he is something of an eccentric, but Derek Jacobi - one of our great acting knights - is himself the son of a tobacconist, and he can't bring himself to believe that an imaginative and well-educated glove-maker's son might also be a great writer? f*** *that* elitist bullsh*t.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 25, 2016 22:08:43 GMT
It's some strange form of snobbery that denigrates an audience for being tourists rather than locals. The Globe "playing to tourists" means that people are going there as a tourist attraction, to tick it off the list and look at the lovely authentic Shakespearean aeroplanes overhead and concrete underfoot.
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4,153 posts
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Post by kathryn on Oct 25, 2016 22:21:20 GMT
So you're saying that people with no previous interest in theatre go to the Globe to watch a play, and quite possibly enjoy the experience, but that this is a bad thing?
But everyone has been falling over themselves to praise Emma Rice for 'attracting a new audience'.
Do we only want the 'right sort' of new audience now? If the new audience is on holiday, are we not interested in attracting them?
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Post by crabtree on Oct 25, 2016 22:24:18 GMT
How is she going to be able to work for the next year with all this drama going on. 'Carry on, but we hate what you are doing!'
It seems all Shakespeare is equal - some is more equal than others.
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1,245 posts
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Post by joem on Oct 25, 2016 22:25:43 GMT
My first visit to a West End theatre was as a tourist. I have been going back for forty years now.
It is interesting how some people want to feel they are part of a cultural elite because we go to plays. But at the end of the day theatres, even the subsidised ones, are businesses with doors open to anyone who will pay; the more who pay the merrier because it guarantees the continuity of what we love. I don't care if they are locals, tourists, theatre fanatics or economic migrants. All are welcome.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 25, 2016 22:28:55 GMT
So you're saying that people with no previous interest in theatre go to the Globe to watch a play, and quite possibly enjoy the experience, but that this is a bad thing? But everyone has been falling over themselves to praise Emma Rice for 'attracting a new audience'. Do we only want the 'right sort' of new audience now? If the new audience is on holiday, are we not interested in attracting them? No point responding to this. You're clearly just concocting fantasised ridiculous arguments.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 25, 2016 22:32:35 GMT
But at the end of the day theatres, even the subsidised ones Shakespeare's Globe is a not-for-profit Trust, so it's neither subsidised nor a business. That's at the root of today's news issue. Individual Board members and major donors are too disruptively influential because of its structure.
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230 posts
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Post by hal9000 on Oct 25, 2016 22:41:56 GMT
I love Rylance and Jacobi as actors, but they do show that great actors make for terrible literary historians. And, this is not a trend. There's only one Shakespeare, one person who is several times the world's most performed playwright. A single outlier of man without the expensive education of an aristocrat melding astonishing insight into the human condition into a populist entertainment form? Just the one? If you think about it, it's not really implausible at all. They are tacky enough to go to the extent of travelling by low-cost airlines! And worse, *shudder* coaches!
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433 posts
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Post by DuchessConstance on Oct 26, 2016 0:02:41 GMT
Maybe Shakespeare was the Loch Ness Monster (on drunken dare from Marlowe)? While we're discussing outlandish theories. What next for her though? All the places she could go (Is The Gate still looking for someone) are really small and I don't think that would be helpful to take such a big step backwards. Maybe becoming AD of touring company in the short term before moving on to somewhere that suits her style. The Gate announced Ellen McDougall as new AD a couple of months ago (unless you mean the Gate in Dublin, which just announced Selina Cartmell as their new AD last month).
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1,217 posts
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Post by nash16 on Oct 26, 2016 1:27:51 GMT
But at the end of the day theatres, even the subsidised ones Shakespeare's Globe is a not-for-profit Trust, so it's neither subsidised nor a business. That's at the root of today's news issue. Individual Board members and major donors are too disruptively influential because of its structure. Exactly. It was donors threatening to pull their £££ if she didn't go that has resulted in this. So so sad.
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Post by Jan on Oct 26, 2016 2:50:22 GMT
So you're saying that people with no previous interest in theatre go to the Globe to watch a play, and quite possibly enjoy the experience, but that this is a bad thing? But everyone has been falling over themselves to praise Emma Rice for 'attracting a new audience'. Do we only want the 'right sort' of new audience now? If the new audience is on holiday, are we not interested in attracting them? Good point. One thing you'll notice here is when people start calling a theatre person by their first name only - Emma this and Emma that - then positions are pretty entrenched.
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1,245 posts
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Post by joem on Oct 26, 2016 6:34:01 GMT
But at the end of the day theatres, even the subsidised ones Shakespeare's Globe is a not-for-profit Trust, so it's neither subsidised nor a business. That's at the root of today's news issue. Individual Board members and major donors are too disruptively influential because of its structure. A not-for-profit Trust still depends on punters, it is a decision on where the money goes to rather than where it comes from. No punters, no theatre.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 26, 2016 6:35:31 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Oct 26, 2016 7:35:20 GMT
So you're saying that people with no previous interest in theatre go to the Globe to watch a play, and quite possibly enjoy the experience, but that this is a bad thing? But everyone has been falling over themselves to praise Emma Rice for 'attracting a new audience'. Do we only want the 'right sort' of new audience now? If the new audience is on holiday, are we not interested in attracting them? I think it's very fair to say there's a vocal contingent at the Globe (in terms of audiences, though they'd consider themselves far more important than that) who are VERY concerned with the RIGHT SORT of people. The kind of audiences that will tell tourists the wrong time to turn up to the groundling queue so they don't get a spot for one example, and the kind of people who after my first and only groundling experience at closing weekend last year put me off ever wanting to go there again. There are a group of very snobby superior people who think 'their' Globe and 'Their' way of doing Shakespeare is the only way. And that's really sad, and makes me really angry.
Of course equally there are groups of dedicated Globe attendees/fans who have been going for years, are open minded both to the productions and don't mind (heaven forbid) new audiences coming to see shows there.
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117 posts
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Post by ldm2016 on Oct 26, 2016 8:03:03 GMT
I want tourists to come to see plays at The Globe. We should feel immensely proud that people from all around the World want to come to London and whilst there see a Shakespeare play. Immensely proud.
However, they are coming to see Shakespeare performed properly not comedy versions of Hamlet or Cymbeline with street "dancing". We have a duty to preserve Shakespeare for future generations and preserve it in a manner similar to the way we received it. That is not to say, as I have said on this thread, that there is no room for modern interpretations of Shakespeare, but simply that The Globe should be the defender of Shakespeare in London and not a platform for directors who admit they don't like or care about his work to pervert our culture's greatest works.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 26, 2016 8:07:51 GMT
I don't see how a fresh interpretation of a play is something that Shakespeare needs "defending" from. Also, there's no reason not to inject comedy into Hamlet, it's got quite a good quantity of jokes, some of which are even funny by 21st century standards.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 26, 2016 8:11:23 GMT
I don't see how a fresh interpretation of a play is something that Shakespeare needs "defending" from. Also, there's no reason not to inject comedy into Hamlet, it's got quite a good quantity of jokes, some of which are even funny by 21st century standards. By all accounts Shakepeare was a pretty modern guy, and I think we can agree a fairly clever one, I think he'd manage to survive people 'interpreting' his work however they want...heck if he were alive he'd sit back and enjoy the Royalties and fame if nowt else!
And I've never seen a director 'insert' a joke (except maybe visual gags) that wasn't already there in the text. Because turns out, old Will was a funny guy. And his plays still endure, even the humour. Oh wait is that why we still do them? because no matter what the context they're still quite good?
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117 posts
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Post by ldm2016 on Oct 26, 2016 8:26:53 GMT
I don't see how a fresh interpretation of a play is something that Shakespeare needs "defending" from. Also, there's no reason not to inject comedy into Hamlet, it's got quite a good quantity of jokes, some of which are even funny by 21st century standards. They did "Carry on Hamlet"... Honestly they even had a 'joke' which went:
"knock knock" "who's there" "Your Russian friend Len" "Your Russian friend is here, I'll let Lenin"
If you think that should be on The Globe...
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Post by kryz1000 on Oct 26, 2016 8:28:12 GMT
The response to Emma Rice’s departure really has been something to behold hasn’t it? I respect people’s right to react in whatever way they find appropriate but can’t we just consider the fact that it just didn’t work out?
In the age of Twitter and, indeed, TheatreBoard there are a variety of opinions now available to us, 24/7. Some of the more influential and established commentators have out-done themselves though. She’s “clearly been pushed”, “it goes deeper”, “it’s not about lighting” says one. The Globe is “deeply divided” says another. I’m sure you’ll carefully lay out your evidence to support these statements won’t you? No?
We all love a conspiracy theory but this unbridled twittering is, I would imagine, deeply unhelpful to an organisation that’s going through challenging times. If you want to support The Globe’s and Emma Rice’s future then a more measured response might be more helpful.
On a few practical points. It is very easy to find the job description online. Amongst other things, it says :
[our] theatre practice is inspired by a sense of continuing experimentation and openness of approach, underpinned by a desire to reflect theatre practice of Shakespeare’s time.
and
[the job is] To ensure that the programming in the Globe Theatre and Sam Wanamaker Playhouse provide a satisfying and coherent balance of traditional, experimental and international work.
I’ll just leave that there for those who felt that a) the Globe Management were keen to stifle creativity and innovation and b) weren’t clear about their commitment to traditional ways of working too.
Secondly. On the question of innovation. Mark R and Dominic D (and their rosta of visiting directors and companies) proved time and again that innovation is possible within these parameters. It will be possible again.
Thirdly. On audiences. This has been the most interesting one for me (and many in this thread). The Globe has played to packed, diverse houses for 20 years. Just because you’re going now doesn’t mean that the audience has only now become more diverse. The Twitterverse has led us to believe that our bubble is the only bubble. Funnily enough, it’s not.
I frankly think that it’s shaming that people have been saying ‘I’ve never been before, Emma Rice got me to come and therefore this whole situation is a scandal’. The scandal is that you never came before to support this award-winning, ground-breaking, internationally-important institution. Step forward Matthew Bourne.
The theatre vs heritage vs academic debate doesn’t deserve any more airtime. The Globe was founded to deliver across all of those objectives and the previous Artistic Directors also wrestled with that balance, it seems.
Yesterday’s news was very sad indeed. But it was delivered without leaks, unseemly rushes for the door and public slanging matches. This final element was provided by ‘the audience’ who supposedly care so much that they forgot context, complexity, good grace and the power of calm reflection.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 26, 2016 8:31:31 GMT
It looks rather like they [Doran, Mallyon & Whyman] 're now angling for Rice to come and work for them! That didn't work well for them last time. That production was not well-loved. If you mean the RSC/Kneehigh Cymbeline in the Swan, which I recall wasn't to your personal taste, remember that Emma Rice was invited back to the RSC Swan to direct The Empress by Tanika Gupta, dramaturg of her sellout Globe Theatre triumph A Midsummer Night's Dream, which of course you say you didn't like either, without having actually experienced it live in the theatre.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 26, 2016 8:34:44 GMT
Goodness. All this guff about Shakespeare being protected by the Globe and their responsibility to produce "authentic" and "proper" productions. They'll be banning women from acting in the plays soon!
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