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Post by ldm2016 on Jan 24, 2017 15:56:52 GMT
Thank for that wonderful counter-argument.
I live in hope that you will appear on Question Time as a guest and I will not only record it on my Virgin Box but watch it regularly to marvel at the 21st Century's Cicero.
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117 posts
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Post by ldm2016 on Jan 24, 2017 16:00:37 GMT
If Brexit fails (and every person with an once of intelligence clearly wants it to succeed regardless of how they voted) I want it to fail, in the sense that the UK should end up weaker and the EU should not be weakened. You want it to fail?
What kind of person wishes failure and misery upon an entire Nation?
I hope post Brexit the UK AND EU prosper and the people of those 2 benefit from that...
The EU probably won't exist in 20 years but if it does my wish is the only one acceptable...
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Post by bellboard27 on Jan 24, 2017 16:01:38 GMT
Thank for that wonderful counter-argument.
I live in hope that you will appear on Question Time as a guest and I will not only record it on my Virgin Box but watch it regularly to marvel at the 21st Century's Cicero.
The world is grown so bad, that wrens make prey where eagles dare not perch.
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117 posts
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Post by ldm2016 on Jan 24, 2017 16:03:33 GMT
Thank for that wonderful counter-argument.
I live in hope that you will appear on Question Time as a guest and I will not only record it on my Virgin Box but watch it regularly to marvel at the 21st Century's Cicero.
The world is grown so bad, that wrens make prey where eagles dare not perch.
When the seagulls follow the trawler, it's because they think sardines will be thrown into the sea. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 24, 2017 16:03:44 GMT
What kind of person wishes failure and misery upon an entire Nation? Donald Trump? |
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Post by vdcni on Jan 24, 2017 16:05:59 GMT
Thank for that wonderful counter-argument.
I live in hope that you will appear on Question Time as a guest and I will not only record it on my Virgin Box but watch it regularly to marvel at the 21st Century's Cicero.
Whereas claiming the right wouldn't have protested - against all evidence - if they had lost the election and constantly calling people snowflakes and despicable is reasoned argument at its very best! |
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117 posts
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Post by ldm2016 on Jan 24, 2017 16:09:22 GMT
What kind of person wishes failure and misery upon an entire Nation? Donald Trump? Trump has listened to the people and has put forward his own plan to eradicate the issues faced by the US. They may or may not prove to be the solution but if you seriously think he has purposely set out to get things wrong... |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 24, 2017 16:12:55 GMT
I meant, upon every nation other than the USA. "America First", etc.
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117 posts
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Post by ldm2016 on Jan 24, 2017 16:24:21 GMT
Thank for that wonderful counter-argument.
I live in hope that you will appear on Question Time as a guest and I will not only record it on my Virgin Box but watch it regularly to marvel at the 21st Century's Cicero.
Whereas claiming the right wouldn't have protested - against all evidence - if they had lost the election and constantly calling people snowflakes and despicable is reasoned argument at its very best! Some idiots on the right would have protested but would we see the hundreds of thousands protesting as we have done for Trump and what we got for Cameron and Brexit?
A significant percentage of the left seems rather unable to accept democracy when they lose.
As for Generation Snowflake, I can't post what I would like to say about people who are protesting ONLY because Trump won and they don't like the result because it upsets them....
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Post by ldm2016 on Jan 24, 2017 16:25:44 GMT
I meant, upon every nation other than the USA. "America First", etc. If Trump thinks the failures of every other nation will benefit the US he is a bigger idiot than I think he is... |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 24, 2017 16:32:57 GMT
A significant percentage of the left seems rather unable to accept democracy when they lose.
As for Generation Snowflake, I can't post what I would like to say about people who are protesting ONLY because Trump won and they don't like the result because it upsets them....
People would be more prepared to give consideration to what you're saying if you didn't spend so much time telling everyone what they're thinking and why they're thinking it. |
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Post by vdcni on Jan 24, 2017 16:41:11 GMT
Whereas claiming the right wouldn't have protested - against all evidence - if they had lost the election and constantly calling people snowflakes and despicable is reasoned argument at its very best! Some idiots on the right would have protested but would we see the hundreds of thousands protesting as we have done for Trump and what we got for Cameron and Brexit?
A significant percentage of the left seems rather unable to accept democracy when they lose.
As for Generation Snowflake, I can't post what I would like to say about people who are protesting ONLY because Trump won and they don't like the result because it upsets them....
We've had 8 years of large proportions of the right, including the new president, refuse to accept Barack Obama was born in the US or claiming he was a Muslim on absolutely no evidence. They didn't just oppose him, they refused to even accept he was a legitimate president. Trump said before the election that the only way he could lose was if he was cheated out of it and his rallies were full of chants about locking Hillary up. Republican politicians made it clear they were going to put her under investigation constantly if she became President (though they are now ignoring Trump's flagrant breach of ethics) and saying they wouldn't accept anyone she nominated for the Supreme Court. We've had decades of the right complaining about the EU and Nigel Farage made very clear a narrow remain win wouldn't end the matter. The concept that it is only the left who can't accept an election defeat is utterly unsupported by evidence. The right are much worse in every respect. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 24, 2017 17:20:27 GMT
Gina Miller contested Theresa May's attempt to erode the right of Parliament to make laws. Miller did both Brexiters and Remainers a huge favour, and we should all be thankful to her, for preserving the principle of Parliamentary sovereignty. While it is true that many actions the Government takes stem from exercising the power of the Queen, changing the law of the land (which all sides conceded would be the result of triggering Article 50) is NOT one of the Queen's powers, and is reserved to Parliament. Thank you for standing up for this key principle, Gina Miller, in the face of tremendous personal abuse, and against an overwhelming tide of ignorance fueled by the Daily Mail! As has been pointed out, the choice to make the Referendum advisory was made by David Cameron's Government, it was a mistake, and it is his fault that public money has been wasted today, as well as Theresa May's fault for compounding his mistake, and not consulting Parliament about Article 50 in the first place. Liked, as any attempt to attack anyone liking this post needs to be ignored. On the subject raised before, my family was split, the traditional working class labour voters of the older generation voting remain and the younger, more upwardly mobile, voting leave. I know full well the old labour voting complaints about immigrants and such from the former but, in the end, they knew that leave were selling them a false prospectus. Both sides, in the end, voted with their self interest - as that's what people do. Leave won with the votes of those working class voters who were led to believe that they would benefit. They were misled and, sadly, they will find that out the hard way. Anyone believing that Brexit is good for the working class is either a liar or a fool. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 24, 2017 17:23:28 GMT
And to add, it is a badge of honour that in our society somebody can question the government in an impartial court. Personally, I wasn't keen on what she did, but I respect her right to have the freedom to be able to do so. Compare with the heavily politicised US supreme court. At least the traitor Scalia has gone now, even as another traitor becomes President. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 24, 2017 17:26:45 GMT
Amazing that someone that uses the term 'generation snowflake' without irony numerous times in a day expects others to take them seriously.
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Post by Michael on Jan 24, 2017 17:30:28 GMT
On the subject raised before, my family was split, the traditional working class labour voters of the older generation voting remain and the younger, more upwardly mobile, voting leave. I'd have thought it'd be exactly the other way round. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 24, 2017 17:31:52 GMT
Amazing that someone that uses the term 'generation snowflake' without irony numerous times in a day expects others to take them seriously. The authoritarian left and the authoritarian right can be, at times, indistinguishable. The liberal left and right (and centre) need to realise they have common cause and that some element of realignment, or at least co-operation may be necessary if the rising spectre of strong-arm nationalism and protectionism is going to be vanquished. |
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Post by d'James on Jan 24, 2017 17:32:06 GMT
On the subject raised before, my family was split, the traditional working class labour voters of the older generation voting remain and the younger, more upwardly mobile, voting leave. I'd have thought it'd be exactly the other way round. That's exactly what I thought. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 24, 2017 17:42:19 GMT
I'd have thought it'd be exactly the other way round. That's exactly what I thought. Why? There was nothing trustworthy for the older labour working class voters from leave. Yes, the guff about immigrants which they saw through (they moan about the Poles etc. but as much about about the native youth who they see as less hardworking and less polite) and the fuzzy maths similarly, which seemed to promise the earth by spending any financial benefit numerous times over. The younger, richer, conservative ones realising that any benefits would be going their way. I tend to vote Lib Dem so am in the middle and get it in the neck from both sides! |
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Post by foxa on Jan 24, 2017 17:43:29 GMT
Thank for that wonderful counter-argument.
I live in hope that you will appear on Question Time as a guest and I will not only record it on my Virgin Box but watch it regularly to marvel at the 21st Century's Cicero.
Hi ldm2016 There are people on this board who I like and respect but who have very different political stances from me. But what makes it work is that when I read their views it's part of the fabric of my understanding of them that we share a love of theatre and an appreciation, when possible, of constructive disagreement. If someone has recommended a show you like or directed you to good seats or made you laugh with a funny review you can forgive each other a lot. I feel like the majority of your postings (but do correct me if I'm wrong) are in this topic - which is fine, obviously - but I just don't see what fun it can be for you and since I don't have an understanding of you in another context it is just feels like someone shouting 'snowflake' on a theatre forum for no particular reason. Perhaps you could point me towards your theatre postings? Maybe we share a great love of the Young Vic or musical revivals or Andrew Scott or something. If there's some common ground then maybe that would make the conversations less polarising? |
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Post by Michael on Jan 24, 2017 18:18:00 GMT
That's exactly what I thought. Why? There was nothing trustworthy for the older labour working class voters from leave. Yes, the guff about immigrants which they saw through (they moan about the Poles etc. but as much about about the native youth who they see as less hardworking and less polite) and the fuzzy maths similarly, which seemed to promise the earth by spending any financial benefit numerous times over. The younger, richer, conservative ones realising that any benefits would be going their way. I tend to vote Lib Dem so am in the middle and get it in the neck from both sides! I assumed that the younger generation would very much welcome the opportunity to easily work, live and/or study in the entire EU, is well-travelled and thus more open-minded to foreigners and values the opportunity to travel freely (keep in mind, as an EU citizen, you may not be denied entry to any EU country and the border police may only check your identity and that you can use the dedicated EU line at passport control). Also, I thought that the younger generation is less nationalist and less protectionist. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 24, 2017 18:34:21 GMT
Why? There was nothing trustworthy for the older labour working class voters from leave. Yes, the guff about immigrants which they saw through (they moan about the Poles etc. but as much about about the native youth who they see as less hardworking and less polite) and the fuzzy maths similarly, which seemed to promise the earth by spending any financial benefit numerous times over. The younger, richer, conservative ones realising that any benefits would be going their way. I tend to vote Lib Dem so am in the middle and get it in the neck from both sides! I assumed that the younger generation would very much welcome the opportunity to easily work, live and/or study in the entire EU, is well-travelled and thus more open-minded to foreigners and values the opportunity to travel freely (keep in mind, as an EU citizen, you may not be denied entry to any EU country and the border police may only check your identity and that you can use the dedicated EU line at passport control). Also, I thought that the younger generation is less nationalist and less protectionist. I'm from one of the regions that most heavily voted for Brexit and I still don't know anyone my age (early 20s) that voted leave. Statistics back up that younger people overwhelmingly voted remain as well. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 24, 2017 18:48:08 GMT
Aha, I think my older/younger is the confusion, it being a movable feast. Older, for me in this context is sixties/seventies and younger thirties/forties.
Which, again puts me in the middle!
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Post by Deleted on Jan 24, 2017 18:49:13 GMT
I remember reading (but can't cite, unfortunately) a report of some research that looked to see what sort of factors influenced the way people voted, and although there were weak correlations with things like age and level of education the strongest correlation with voting Leave was belief in "traditional values". I'm not quite sure what "traditional values" means — the report mentioned things like support for capital punishment — but the general idea was that people who look to the past as a better time tended to vote Leave while those who look to creating a better future tended to vote Remain. Certainly all the Leave voters I personally know also think we should return to imperial measurements, non-decimal currency and National Service, so there may be something in it. Mind you, all but one of the Leave voters I personally know are over 70. All this is getting tense, so relax with a video of a horse playing with a rubber chicken. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 24, 2017 19:02:05 GMT
My uncle and aunt (late-70s) are gleefully proud to have voted Leave. They say "we managed on our own before".
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