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Post by max on Aug 11, 2022 17:14:52 GMT
I dont believe there has been any buzz around POTO for about 25 years. Certainly none that reached the home counties It's interesting that there never seems to be any attempt to create a buzz around it. It's well due for some eye-catching casting, gimmick casting that turns out to be genius even. Limited engagement for Steve Harley is my bid.
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Post by BurlyBeaR on Aug 11, 2022 17:27:48 GMT
I dont believe there has been any buzz around POTO for about 25 years. Certainly none that reached the home counties There was plenty about it on here before it reopened! If you can call it “buzz” 😲😆
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Post by danb on Aug 11, 2022 18:04:04 GMT
I dont believe there has been any buzz around POTO for about 25 years. Certainly none that reached the home counties It's interesting that there never seems to be any attempt to create a buzz around it. It's well due for some eye-catching casting, gimmick casting that turns out to be genius even. Limited engagement for Steve Harley is my bid. I’d like to hear a great rock voice sing it. A modern day Ian Gillan or similar.
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Post by og on Aug 11, 2022 18:46:36 GMT
I dont believe there has been any buzz around POTO for about 25 years. Certainly none that reached the home counties It's interesting that there never seems to be any attempt to create a buzz around it. It's well due for some eye-catching casting, gimmick casting that turns out to be genius even. Limited engagement for Steve Harley is my bid. I think a perceived potential issue around creating a 'buzz' now (without due cause) for a show thats been functional in some form or other for 36 years, is that to do something that gets people talking (for the right reason that is, not sacking half the crew & orchestra) you then potentially affect longevity when the buzz period ends. At the moment the cogs are turning, seats are selling and until CMLtd has recouped on the expense of refitting the show and lost takings through 2020/21, they're not going to rock the boat. It's had some new oil and couple of new ball bearings, but to do some stunt mega cast for a short engagement for the sake of creating a buzz, then risks lethargy afterwards as it all goes back to normal. If for now it's breaking even they're not likely to jeopardise that. Doesn't stop us doing some wild speculation and dreaming. If they really wanted to kick-start a bit of buzz, bringing Michael Crawford back as one of the Managers or Piangi would get a lot of attention.
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Post by max on Aug 11, 2022 20:37:44 GMT
All really good points og.
I guess they could do some special casting stints at particular anniversaries - but they've done those elsewhere at grand scale, which somewhat masks (sorry!) the risk you talk about, of going back to 'just ordinary' afterwards.
But who might like the challenge of a long run in a show?
Russell Watson - yes, I cringe at the obviousness, but what if his acting turned out to be great?
How about an actor for Phantom where it's little known that they sing well, and they'd enjoy surprising people by wanting to do it?
If only Sammy Davis Jnr had played it on Broadway, I think a whole further mystique would have grown up around it.
p.s Brian Blessed for Piangi.
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Post by mrbarnaby on Aug 11, 2022 23:10:39 GMT
To be fair they did try and create some buzz around Lucy St Louis’ casting.
Clearly tourists haven’t returned yet to London at pre pandemic levels so phantom was always going to struggle to fill seats.
They should close it down and let’s get a nice new show in there.
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Post by shady23 on Aug 12, 2022 6:13:08 GMT
The average theatre goer will have no idea the orchestra has less people in or there have been changes from the original and, ultimately, they won't really care.
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Post by BurlyBeaR on Aug 12, 2022 6:33:08 GMT
To be fair they did try and create some buzz around Lucy St Louis’ casting. Clearly tourists haven’t returned yet to London at pre pandemic levels so phantom was always going to struggle to fill seats. They should close it down and let’s get a nice new show in there. A nice new show that’s a total flash in the pan you mean? And they’ll have closed a legendary show and put a lot more people out of work for some piece of rubbish that doesn’t last five minutes?
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Post by og on Aug 12, 2022 7:37:23 GMT
To be fair they did try and create some buzz around Lucy St Louis’ casting. Clearly tourists haven’t returned yet to London at pre pandemic levels so phantom was always going to struggle to fill seats. They should close it down and let’s get a nice new show in there. For likely the wrong reason (as I'm sure you know anyway). They were reopening post-covid, there was already a fair amount of attention on the show. They went down the 'ooo look at us we're doing diverse casting as well now too' route concurrently, which I think as soon as it reopened and reviews came in, people saw through. Had they cast the leads (regardless of ethnicity) as a pair that could perform a convincing relationship, they'd have been deserving of the attention and buzz for doing so, but unfortunately there is 0 dynamic between the two leads and as a result the efforts to casting interestingly and differently just looked a bit shallow, so any buzz there was fizzled out quicker than a poundshop sparkler.
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Post by anthony on Aug 12, 2022 8:09:38 GMT
To be fair, I feel as though St Louis does the best that she can with what she was given. I genuinely think Donnelly is just awful. He honestly has the charisma and stage presence of a rock. When I last saw it a few months back, some members of the audience cackled as he fell to the floor during 'Stranger...' because it was just so lifeless. Both of the managers aren't great and you had a Carlotta whose diction was horrendous and missed literally all of Carlotta's comic moments (although she was significantly better towards the end of her run!)
Greg Castiglioni is so underrated, but the changes to Piangi make him a nuisance throughout. Rhys Whitfield's Raoul was probably the saving point of the show; genuinely probably the best Raoul I've ever seen. He genuinely embodied the character. It's a shame we didn't get to see him with a better cast around him.
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Post by max on Aug 12, 2022 11:19:02 GMT
Best thing Lloyd Webber could have done was buy this show back from the Cameron Mackintosh share of producing, keep full orchestra, and put in place a day-to-day producer who genuinely wants to see it thrive (rather than having their eyes over on their true love 'Les Miserables).
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Post by scarpia on Aug 12, 2022 13:55:16 GMT
Best thing Lloyd Webber could have done was buy this show back from the Cameron Mackintosh share of producing, keep full orchestra, and put in place a day-to-day producer who genuinely wants to see it thrive (rather than having their eyes over on their true love 'Les Miserables). I am rather confused over this as I still don't quite get who was able to call the shots re London and how Cameron ultimately got his way. Currently the greater ownership of the production vehicle is with RUG, and RUG/ALW also has a much greater say over Broadway (Cameron for his part is now entirely disinterested in Broadway, with his favourites not running there any more). But the picture is muddier when it came to the original London production. It's true most people won't know. The media has not exactly helped raise the spotlight on the issue and what went on and there is still a lot of disinformation coming from the producers (e.g. that the production is 36 years old). But they do care, I think. You can see that not just in the comments from loyal fans who have now stopped attending altogether (and there seem to be quite a few based on the social media comments), but also from those who find out about this afterwards. I see a lot of people post excitement on social media that they're going to see the place where it all began (having perhaps discovered it back in the 90s when it was touring America), only to find out that that's all been ripped out and replaced. They go in expecting the gloomy, spot auction we all knew, only to find those washing-line half-hearted drapes, a butchered proscenium, and a urine-coloured oversaturated light wash. I kind of feel Lucy St Louis has been used. They knew there was going to be negativity over what they did to the show, so they thought they'd mask it by finding a positive spin on new (and far overdue) diversity in the casting. But rather than taking the time to find someone right, they just went to someone who sounds like she had auditioned before and been rejected, and who still isn't right for the role. Contrast to Broadway where Emile Kouatchou can sing and act that role far better to her London counterpart. In fact, the recent Broadway casts have been very strong. It's like an inverse situation of what happened in the early 2000s, when London's casting tended to be much better and more interesting.
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Post by Jon on Aug 12, 2022 14:29:21 GMT
I would imagine that RUG also wanted to cut costs but they weren't as public about it as Cameron was.
In regards to Broadway, the union contracts is probably the big reason it's not been tampered with unlike in London.
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Post by greeny11 on Aug 12, 2022 18:30:17 GMT
To be fair, I feel as though St Louis does the best that she can with what she was given. I genuinely think Donnelly is just awful. He honestly has the charisma and stage presence of a rock. When I last saw it a few months back, some members of the audience cackled as he fell to the floor during 'Stranger...' because it was just so lifeless. Both of the managers aren't great and you had a Carlotta whose diction was horrendous and missed literally all of Carlotta's comic moments (although she was significantly better towards the end of her run!) Greg Castiglioni is so underrated, but the changes to Piangi make him a nuisance throughout. Rhys Whitfield's Raoul was probably the saving point of the show; genuinely probably the best Raoul I've ever seen. He genuinely embodied the character. It's a shame we didn't get to see him with a better cast around him. I agree with this - Lucy was fine when I saw the show - the problem is with Killian. I've liked him in other roles, but not as the Phantom. He brought nothing to the role, and the majority of the big notes he has to sing were painful to listen to. I enjoyed the show far more when James Gant was the Phantom. I've been a regular to Phantom over the years, but am not going back until Killian has gone. My other issue was with how quiet the orchestra sounded at times - particularly Masquerade and during the Final Lair. It was painfully obvious they had reduced the band quite significantly during those 2 songs.
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Post by ronnette on Aug 12, 2022 18:38:58 GMT
Slightly random I was looking at the amateur licence for POTO at ALW Licencing today….currently available.
However it is with a 27 piece orchestra.
1. No amateur group can afford that many musicians.
2. How come the amateur version is for 27 and the west end version is what, 14 at a push??
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Post by ceebee on Aug 12, 2022 18:39:46 GMT
Slightly random I was looking at the amateur licence for POTO at ALW Licencing today….currently available. However it is with a 27 piece orchestra. 1. No amateur group can afford that many musicians. 2. How come the amateur version is for 27 and the west end version is what, 14 at a push?? You've answered your own question.
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Post by inthenose on Aug 12, 2022 19:42:17 GMT
The average theatre goer will have no idea the orchestra has less people in or there have been changes from the original and, ultimately, they won't really care. Now, I’ve heard this argument put forward several times. I counter this based on my own anecdotal experiences, plus some easily evidenced truths. Fan groups on the likes of Reddit, Facebook and other social media have hundreds of thousands of members. Believe it or not, these are a large chunk of audience. Or should I say, former and potential audience. Not a few days pass without someone referencing the audience sackings/angel statue/poor quality of the cast. Phantom has been running since 1986, and it goes without saying that repeat viewings are the lifeblood of the show. Without a recovered international tourism market, amidst a cost of living crisis, domestic repeat visits from people who have seen the show prior to the “new production” are keeping the show running. Anecdotally, when I saw it, I witnessed about six conversations with people saying they don’t like the show as much any more. Three specifically mentioned the audience, one talked about the angel statue and two about how the cast weren’t as good as they remembered. I think there is so much snobbery about theatregoers - much based on often true stereotypes - but in this case it has been constantly disproven. Phantom is doing poorly because the fans - however casual they are - don’t like the new version as much, because it is a downgrade in practically every way. And the fans/repeat visits are carrying the ticket sales.
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Post by anthony on Aug 12, 2022 19:46:32 GMT
The licence is aimed at US high schools, which invest significantly in these sort of extra curricular activities (band is a huge deal over there) The production value of these productions tends to be quite big... seriously, some of them put the West End to shame sometimes.
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Post by Dawnstar on Aug 12, 2022 20:16:50 GMT
Slightly random I was looking at the amateur licence for POTO at ALW Licencing today….currently available. However it is with a 27 piece orchestra. 1. No amateur group can afford that many musicians. 2. How come the amateur version is for 27 and the west end version is what, 14 at a push?? Do amateur groups pay their orchestras then? I would have assumed their orchestras were also amateur & therefore size would be limited only by how many interested amateur musicians they could recruit.
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Post by inthenose on Aug 12, 2022 20:34:54 GMT
Slightly random I was looking at the amateur licence for POTO at ALW Licencing today….currently available. However it is with a 27 piece orchestra. 1. No amateur group can afford that many musicians. 2. How come the amateur version is for 27 and the west end version is what, 14 at a push?? Do amateur groups pay their orchestras then? I would have assumed their orchestras were also amateur & therefore size would be limited only by how many interested amateur musicians they could recruit. Good luck finding musicians willing to do Am-Dram for free! Yes, they’re generally paid (the only ones in the whole thing who are), and they usually charge for rehearsals too, so the first time the performers sing with the band is often the first dress rehearsal. Slightly different for schools as they can use music students and incorporate that into their assessments. But staging an am-dram production with a 26 piece orchestra is a near impossibility outside of an educational setting, or some very wealthy sponsors
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Post by Jon on Aug 12, 2022 20:37:07 GMT
I assume RUG set the license high so it can't be performed by small groups
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Post by danb on Aug 12, 2022 21:01:12 GMT
My son is considering it for their 48 hour musical. Do RUG do charity?
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Post by ronnette on Aug 12, 2022 22:01:38 GMT
Slightly random I was looking at the amateur licence for POTO at ALW Licencing today….currently available. However it is with a 27 piece orchestra. 1. No amateur group can afford that many musicians. 2. How come the amateur version is for 27 and the west end version is what, 14 at a push?? Do amateur groups pay their orchestras then? I would have assumed their orchestras were also amateur & therefore size would be limited only by how many interested amateur musicians they could recruit. I certainly pay out musicians and my MD - Music Union rates. It’s my biggest cost. I don’t think you’d get any musos playing for free.
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Post by ronnette on Aug 12, 2022 22:03:53 GMT
I assume RUG set the license high so it can't be performed by small groups The licence isn’t high, £500 plus 16% of royalties, plus around £500 to hire the music…. But the only version available to amateur groups is the one with 27 piece orchestra. Given I tend to have band call, sitzprobe, dress and 5 performances, you’re looking at around £1000 a musician…. Biggest I’ve gone was 11 for Joseph.
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Post by ronnette on Aug 12, 2022 22:04:33 GMT
My son is considering it for their 48 hour musical. Do RUG do charity? Absolutely not.
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Post by inthenose on Aug 12, 2022 23:33:48 GMT
There is something rather tone deaf about an amateur group of volunteers having to scrape together to somehow find and fund a 27 piece orchestra, compared to billionaire producers cutting their own orchestra size in half.
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Post by og on Aug 13, 2022 8:22:13 GMT
Slightly random I was looking at the amateur licence for POTO at ALW Licencing today….currently available. However it is with a 27 piece orchestra. 1. No amateur group can afford that many musicians. 2. How come the amateur version is for 27 and the west end version is what, 14 at a push?? A few points... If your feeling particularly extravagant you can order the 45 piece orchestration. Whilst your ordering the David Cullen 27 piece orchestration score, a quick scan through the draft licences indicates there is no stipulation that the orchestra must be strictly 27 piece. I believe in most instances MDs will get the full score, re-assign parts for doubling and reduce to the appropriate band size. Part of the Production Resources includes licensable access to RMS Sinfonia (Orchestral Enhancement Software) which "is capable of enhancing and supporting a live ensemble of any size". The newer, reduced orchestration may still be under some contractual obligations that restricts its distribution and licensing for a certain amount of time, whereas David Cullen's 27 has probably been bought out now, meaning more money in RUGs pocket.
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Post by inthenose on Aug 13, 2022 9:44:38 GMT
How much is the Sinfonia license out of interest?
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Post by og on Aug 13, 2022 10:35:36 GMT
Not immediately obvious. You have to register and apply for a quote, based on type of performance group and length of production.
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Post by Dawnstar on Aug 13, 2022 11:24:47 GMT
Good luck finding musicians willing to do Am-Dram for free! Yes, they’re generally paid (the only ones in the whole thing who are), and they usually charge for rehearsals too, so the first time the performers sing with the band is often the first dress rehearsal. Slightly different for schools as they can use music students and incorporate that into their assessments. But staging an am-dram production with a 26 piece orchestra is a near impossibility outside of an educational setting, or some very wealthy sponsors Having checked the programmes for the amateur productions I've seen, all by the same company, the musician numbers are listed as follows: Ruddigore 19, The Mikado 9, The Pirates of Penzance 16 & South Pacific 29! So presumably they either do have some very wealthy sponsors, or they don't pay their musicians. Maybe Cambridge just has more musicians than other places? Certainly the Cambridge Philharmonic seemed to have no difficulty in fielding a full symphony orchestra & large chorus for the operatic concert performances I've seen from them and they're a non-professional organisation, though they hire professional soloists.
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