4,976 posts
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Post by Someone in a tree on Apr 17, 2021 16:40:03 GMT
They should just close it in London and let it tour for eternity. A waste of a good theatre. I hear BK has a set and costumes all lined up ready waiting. Apparently all stored in 1 transit van...
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Post by scarpia on Apr 18, 2021 11:47:50 GMT
This is an interesting and very sad listen: www.4barsrest.com/news/44572/the-real-phantom-menaceThe idea that Phantom will now be the only West End musical not to feature live percussion (particularly when its orchestra is part of the show as a character) seems absurd.
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45 posts
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Post by biffo on Apr 18, 2021 12:19:24 GMT
show in the West End have been putting percussion on Keys and track for ages....
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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2021 12:36:32 GMT
This is an interesting and very sad listen: www.4barsrest.com/news/44572/the-real-phantom-menaceThe idea that Phantom will now be the only West End musical not to feature live percussion (particularly when its orchestra is part of the show as a character) seems absurd. Genuinely sad after listening to that. Not because of the keyboard/synthetic replacements but because of the passion shown by the interviewee who, like so many others, have been through hell as a result of this, on top of the pandemic.
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Post by max on Apr 18, 2021 12:46:02 GMT
This is an interesting and very sad listen: www.4barsrest.com/news/44572/the-real-phantom-menaceThe idea that Phantom will now be the only West End musical not to feature live percussion (particularly when its orchestra is part of the show as a character) seems absurd. Excellent interview, and brave speaker (anticipating no more employment for him from CM and ALW - due to Phantom cuts, and speaking out). It really emphasises how Lloyd Webber undermines so much of what he's said about live music and music education. I hope CM and ALW hear this interview; there's nothing shrill or bitter in it, just logical argument (including that IF this has to happen, this isn't the time to do it). I think they'll wish they'd just closed it, and toured forever.
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Post by 10642 on Apr 18, 2021 13:40:51 GMT
show in the West End have been putting percussion on Keys and track for ages.... Yes but most of those shows still employ at least one percussionist or drummer. Eg hamilton which uses lots of percussion on tracks and electronics but still employs a drummer and a percussionist, who operates a lot of the electronics. Or, in my experience, tours or shows in smaller theatres often put some percussion, especially larger instruments, on keyboards because of space restraints in orchestra pits rather than the purely financial reasons of employing more musicians as in this case
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2,258 posts
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Post by richey on Apr 22, 2021 12:28:24 GMT
Well that's just rubbing salt in the wounds... "listen, this is how Phantom could sound with a proper orchestra" (And before anyone says it, I'm not suggesting trying to get an 81 piece orchestra in Her Majesty's) /
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3,468 posts
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Post by ceebee on Apr 22, 2021 15:06:05 GMT
Well that's just rubbing salt in the wounds... "listen, this is how Phantom could sound with a proper orchestra" (And before anyone says it, I'm not suggesting trying to get an 81 piece orchestra in Her Majesty's) / I'll take this album though as a consolation prize.
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2,258 posts
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Post by richey on Apr 22, 2021 19:30:42 GMT
Now getting a bit of a bashing about the orchestra on Twitter
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Post by Deleted on Apr 22, 2021 19:54:34 GMT
I had a lovely response from one of the companies involved in Phantom. I sensed and I may be wrong that I wasn’t the only one and that the admin staff were sympathetic.
Who knows they could be next for Mackintosh’s budget cuts.
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Post by inthenose on Apr 23, 2021 14:49:27 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Apr 23, 2021 15:35:49 GMT
Well that's just rubbing salt in the wounds... "listen, this is how Phantom could sound with a proper orchestra" (And before anyone says it, I'm not suggesting trying to get an 81 piece orchestra in Her Majesty's) / I'll take this album though as a consolation prize. Sounds great! I've pre-ordered the CD. (Wonder if will actually be realised in advance of the repeatedly put back Cinderella album). Reminds me of that Phantasia thing they did when Woman in White came out. Was actually slightly disappointed by that so hopefully this will be better. Also CD4 of Unmasked they described various instrumentals as "2018 Orchestral suites" but in fact they were merely Overtures and Entreactes stapled together.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 23, 2021 15:39:47 GMT
Now getting a bit of a bashing about the orchestra on Twitter World's biggest eyeball for the Twitter keyboard warriors. Because obviously the economics of assembling an orchestra for a recording are the same as the economics of paying an orchestra 8 times a week. Talk about a non argument. I give up!
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Post by inthenose on Apr 23, 2021 15:55:49 GMT
Phantom of the Opera, centre stalls seat 2004. 27 piece orchestra, original production - £45. Adjusted for inflation, £70.66 in 2020. Programme £3.
Phantom of the Opera, centre stalls seat 2021. 14 piece orchestra, "new" production - £89.50. Programme price TBC.
Inflation averaged 2.9%, a like-for-like ticket increased in price by 26.6%.
Literally and demonstrably paying more for less.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 23, 2021 16:17:48 GMT
Phantom of the Opera, centre stalls seat 2004. 27 piece orchestra, original production - £45. Adjusted for inflation, £70.66 in 2020. Programme £3. Phantom of the Opera, centre stalls seat 2021. 14 piece orchestra, "new" production - £89.50. Programme price TBC. Inflation averaged 2.9%, a like-for-like ticket increased in price by 26.6%. Literally and demonstrably paying more for less. With respect, I also think this is a complete non argument. If you want to talk about value for money you need to compare the current cohort of West End shows. Not compare single shows to years ago. Hence: Phantom of the Opera, centre stalls seat 2021. 14 piece orchestra, "new" production - £89.50. Programme price TBC Come from Away, centre stalls seat 2021. 8 piece orchestra. (Also 12 cast on stage. Static set. Almost no automation. One act. Less comfortable theatre). Comparable area - £125/£100/£99.50. Programme price TBC. But whatever that is, I can guarantee an LWT programme to be better value for money than ATG! As far as value for money goes, in 2021 Phantom remains excellent value, relative to almost all other West End musicals. I really do urge people to understand the economics behind theatre.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 23, 2021 16:18:49 GMT
Phantom is actually a bit cheaper than it was - as £89.50 is now the top premium Saturday night price!
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5,154 posts
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Post by TallPaul on Apr 23, 2021 16:22:08 GMT
Inflation averaged 2.9%, a like-for-like ticket increased in price by 26.6%. It's a good place to start, but inflation is calculated using a very large (and ever changing) basket of goods and services. I'm not aware that such a thing exists, but to calculate theatre inflation, wouldn't you need to compare the Equity/MU/Bectu minima in 2004 versus 2021, along with the rates bill for Her Majesty's over the same period, and lots of other costs? I would suggest that only then is it possible to determine if ticket prices for TPOTO have increased at a much higher rate than inflation.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 23, 2021 16:25:24 GMT
Inflation averaged 2.9%, a like-for-like ticket increased in price by 26.6%. It's a good place to start, but inflation is calculated using a very large (and ever changing) basket of goods and services. I'm not aware that such a thing exists, but to calculate theatre inflation, wouldn't you need to compare the Equity/MU/Bectu minima in 2004 versus 2021, along with the rates bill for Her Majesty's over the same period, and lots of other costs? I would suggest that only then is it possible to determine if ticket prices for TPOTO have increased at a much higher rate than inflation. And it applies to West End musicals across the board - very much not a Phantom specific thing. The ATG shows, the Disney's, the ENO musicals and the Dominion/Palladium specials are I would argue the worst offenders. Not LWT/DMT.
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Post by inthenose on Apr 23, 2021 16:30:04 GMT
Prices have not fallen. They have risen. In exchange, the customer is receiving less product, if such a thing were measurable in physical terms. Smaller orchestra and less money being paid out in royalties. Reworked set leading to a smaller crew. Prices have gone up, for less expense in return. I am astonished as someone who prides himself on protecting consumer rights that people can't recognise this.
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Post by inthenose on Apr 23, 2021 16:36:06 GMT
It's a good place to start, but inflation is calculated using a very large (and ever changing) basket of goods and services. I'm not aware that such a thing exists, but to calculate theatre inflation, wouldn't you need to compare the Equity/MU/Bectu minima in 2004 versus 2021, along with the rates bill for Her Majesty's over the same period, and lots of other costs? I would suggest that only then is it possible to determine if ticket prices for TPOTO have increased at a much higher rate than inflation. And it applies to West End musicals across the board - very much not a Phantom specific thing. The ATG shows, the Disney's, the ENO musicals and the Dominion/Palladium specials are I would argue the worst offenders. Not LWT/DMT. But comparing it to newer shows would entirely defeat the purpose of the point, which were set up with fixed running costs and ticket prices. Phantom opened in 1986, since then ticket prices have steadily risen above the national rate of inflation, while running costs have risen in line with inflation. I know what crew and cast make. I know the increase in profits hasn't been redistributed to the cast and the crew. Now, the running costs have been reduced due to the sackings and redesign, yet none of those savings are being given to the customer. It's a classic case of having your cake and eating it. Paying more, getting less.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 23, 2021 16:44:05 GMT
It’s amazing how blind people are when they want to be.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 23, 2021 16:46:20 GMT
And it applies to West End musicals across the board - very much not a Phantom specific thing. The ATG shows, the Disney's, the ENO musicals and the Dominion/Palladium specials are I would argue the worst offenders. Not LWT/DMT. But comparing it to newer shows would entirely defeat the purpose of the point, which were set up with fixed running costs and ticket prices. Phantom opened in 1986, since then ticket prices have steadily risen above the national rate of inflation, while running costs have risen in line with inflation. I know what crew and cast make. I know the increase in profits hasn't been redistributed to the cast and the crew. Now, the running costs have been reduced due to the sackings and redesign, yet none of those savings are being given to the customer. It's a classic case of having your cake and eating it. Paying more, getting less. But that has happened to musical theatre across the board. I agree it's a shame. It's a real shame! But even taking into account the recent cost savings at Phantom, it remains one of the least offenders. Doesn't make it right. Does make it understandable. Does mean it's still value for money relative to other shows. Further, setting up Phantom in 2021, the costs of the crew, the cast, the orchestra, the FOH, the building upkeep etc etc are the same as the other 2021 shows, not the same as the same show 30 odd years ago. So if we are comparing, I do think it's a more useful comparison. Phantom has been slimmed down over the years much less than other long runners. We had the good times for years. Post Covid is a different world (have you looked at the availability?). It needs this to survive. It's a fairly priced 2021 West End musical. It's sad for the job losses. It's great for the jobs that remain. It's great they are still doing it. It's great we still have a Phantom. Shows are gonna come and go pretty quickly once all restrictions are removed.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 23, 2021 16:47:41 GMT
It’s amazing how blind people are when they want to be. For the very first time on this thread, I couldn't agree with you more :-)
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Post by scarpia on Apr 23, 2021 17:42:45 GMT
This is a heartbreaking read. Mike Stanley had been with the show since opening night and is on the recording, and conversations with him many years ago at HM's inspired me to take up instruments. I can understand where the harpist is coming from when she says she feels bereft...even for the audience, there was no closure. No chance to say goodbye to a legendary production that was London's most successful homegrown show.
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1,481 posts
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Post by steve10086 on Apr 23, 2021 17:44:20 GMT
This is a heartbreaking read. Mike Stanley had been with the show since opening night and is on the recording, and conversations with him many years ago at HM's inspired me to take up instruments. I can understand where the harpist is coming from when she says she feels bereft...even for the audience, there was no closure. No chance to say goodbye to a legendary production that was London's most successful homegrown show. But hey, it’s just business... nothing personal 🙄
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