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Post by wardrobemistress76 on Jun 28, 2022 8:59:46 GMT
I know a lot of people on this forum think we are the minority. However, my friend, who normally arranges up to 30 coach trips to Phantom between June and September, has sadly decided to stop after hearing about my most recent visit. The depleted orchestra, the watered-down production and the subpar cast… So, that’s over 2500 people over the course of 4 months. I know this might seem like a drop in the ocean, and perhaps no one will bat an eyelid, but this is the result of real ‘word of mouth’. They are now looking to run trips to regional theatres instead, which is no bad thing!
I am pleased that so many of you enjoy this new production, but for me, it has lost all its magic, and I can’t quite believe this cast have received an extension. The weakest Phantom and Christine I have ever witnessed.
What do Camack and ALW see in these below-average performers that we don’t? Perhaps they are cheap.
I would be interested to hear your thoughts regarding coach trips.
(As a footnote, this has nothing to do with Covid. These coach loads of people are pretty well-off and middle-class. They also gave up on Les Mis years ago.)
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Post by danb on Jun 28, 2022 10:29:31 GMT
It sounds like they were visiting a museum rather than a piece of live theatre.
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Post by PhantomNcl on Jul 4, 2022 16:16:51 GMT
As a very long-time 'Phan', and having worked on the Hamburg production back in the early 90s, I've avoided the new production so far as I really wasn't sure if I'd want to see it in its current state. However, finding myself in London last week I took the plunge and booked a couple of seats in D row, right under the chandelier.
Despite the orchestra sounding very thin in places (particularly Masquerade), I have to say that for the most part I really enjoyed the show from start to finish! I didn't like the cracked proscenium - it's fine for the prologue, but when the Opera House goes back to its former glory it looks very out of place - but I did like the new section which repairs itself to join the on-stage boxes together. The new chandelier looks lovely, a far bigger and more impressive one than the original, though I did have a bit of a giggle when it lifted up off the stage and the little section at the bottom popped out!
Yes, there were bits here and there which were missing and made the original more 'magical', like the doubles in the journey to the lair, and the candelabra rising from the lake then tracking outwards, but if you were seeing the show for the first time it wouldn't make much of a difference, and still looks really impressive.
I did miss the Angel statue though. The horse is a great set piece, but there isn't so much of an impact of seeing the Phantom lurking behind it as there used to be seeing his hands slowly appearing over the top of the Angel, and the gasp from the audience as they realised he was up there all the time.
Sitting in row D I was able to get a nice close-up view of the costumes, and while there have been a few corners cut here and there, the overall quality of the show didn't seem to have been compromised much at all.
I'd seen various online/TV clips of Killian and Lucy and hadn't been impressed at all (which disappointed me, as I'd seen Killian in both Kinky Boots and Les Mis and thought he was excellent), but live they were absolutely spot on and turned in fantastic performances. Having seen the show hundreds of times it's always a testament to the strength of the performance if I have a sob when Christine kisses the Phantom, then has the sad little moment where she returns the wedding ring, and as my companion for the evening will attest, tissues were required on both occasions. All of the cast (as far as I know we had the full first cast on) were superb. It was my friend's first time seeing the show, and absolutely fell in love with it.
I noticed a couple of little things that I know weren't there in the Hamburg production (but I'm not sure if they were previously there in London) - after the unmasking following Point of No Return the Phantom ran stage right and bumped into Madame Giry, looked at her imploringly as if asking for her help, and she just shook her head and walked slowly back into the wings. Then as Christine and Raoul were sailing off in the boat Christine turned and sang her final lines through the portcullis to the Phantom rather than looking up and singing them to Raoul - I know that in the 25th anniversary production Sierra turned and sang her lines to the Phantom too, presumably to tie it in with Love Never Dies...
So overall I came away feeling very positive, and would certainly go back and see it again! Oh, and I'd forgotten just how hot the pyros are at the end of Wandering Child - the MD must have flameproof eyebrows!
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Post by shady23 on Jul 4, 2022 17:35:50 GMT
I am embarrassed to say I have never seen it. Was booked for the tour but thanks to the pandemic that was not to be.
I am not sure that some of your reviews are encouraging me to book, but having not seen the original I will have nothing to compare it to, which could be a good thing.
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Post by BurlyBeaR on Jul 4, 2022 20:15:29 GMT
I am embarrassed to say I have never seen it. Was booked for the tour but thanks to the pandemic that was not to be. I am not sure that some of your reviews are encouraging me to book, but having not seen the original I will have nothing to compare it to, which could be a good thing. I’d suggest that you ignore the endless back and forth about the minutia of different productions. If you think you’d like it, as a story or a premise, go see it. It’s still a beautiful show. |
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Post by richey on Jul 4, 2022 21:00:35 GMT
I am embarrassed to say I have never seen it. Was booked for the tour but thanks to the pandemic that was not to be. I am not sure that some of your reviews are encouraging me to book, but having not seen the original I will have nothing to compare it to, which could be a good thing. Don't let others put you off. I've been a lifelong fan (was the first West End musical I saw in 1989) and when I revisited it at the beginning of this year I still thought it was wonderful. |
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Post by inthenose on Jul 4, 2022 21:31:12 GMT
I am embarrassed to say I have never seen it. Was booked for the tour but thanks to the pandemic that was not to be. I am not sure that some of your reviews are encouraging me to book, but having not seen the original I will have nothing to compare it to, which could be a good thing. Similarly, don't let others try and convince you it's as good as it was ever was. It really isn't. |
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Post by sukhavati on Jul 5, 2022 2:38:21 GMT
It sounds like they were visiting a museum rather than a piece of live theatre. It always depends on the cast (my first time was in 1990). When I saw the show in NY five years ago, it seemed that a number of the cast were just going through the motions, especially James Barbour. However, the 2017/18 cast at HM's acted as if everything were fresh and new and they genuinely rekindled my love for the show. And that's everyone from the ensemble up to the trio - all were wonderful, vocals to acting. Sometimes there are a few people in a tour who are genuinely talented and wonderful singers, and others in the ensemble who are clearly just starting out and have a way to go before they earn a spot in a West End cast of anything. I loved the original orchestrations and score, and it's painful to see the show reduced to clichéd melodrama in certain hands. I think Cammack has cheaped out, and if that mean lesser known actors and an inexperienced ensemble with the automation and other cuts, that's what he'll do to earn his pound of flesh. I'm thankful I've seen a few genuine star Phantoms, and one brilliant Christine (Amy Manford). Other than the instrumentation with the original synthesisers, I've never considered the show a museum piece just because Maria Bjørnson did such a brilliant job of recreating the atmosphere of late 19th century Paris. I've only seen video of two different restaged versions that interested me - the recent Sydney Harbour version, and the one in Greece that had to close down due to lockdown. Both seemed to have interesting production design, and would have been fun to see in person. I guess if someone loves the restaged version at HM's, great for them, but I don't care to spoil my memories of the original production there. I won't be back unless there's a return to the full orchestra and original production values, but we know that's not going to happen. It was fun while it lasted.
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Post by scarpia on Jul 6, 2022 22:33:53 GMT
I am embarrassed to say I have never seen it. Was booked for the tour but thanks to the pandemic that was not to be. I am not sure that some of your reviews are encouraging me to book, but having not seen the original I will have nothing to compare it to, which could be a good thing. If you must see this reduced production then I would be inclined to wait until they get a better cast. Otherwise (and not easily done, I appreciate), you could try and save up and see the show in its full version on Broadway. Done right, there's nothing comparable. As you say, you will have nothing to compare it to, but I suspect you'll wonder what all the fuss was about in the first place with this new version. |
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Post by scarpia on Jul 6, 2022 22:38:47 GMT
I noticed a couple of little things that I know weren't there in the Hamburg production (but I'm not sure if they were previously there in London) - after the unmasking following Point of No Return the Phantom ran stage right and bumped into Madame Giry, looked at her imploringly as if asking for her help, and she just shook her head and walked slowly back into the wings. Then as Christine and Raoul were sailing off in the boat Christine turned and sang her final lines through the portcullis to the Phantom rather than looking up and singing them to Raoul - I know that in the 25th anniversary production Sierra turned and sang her lines to the Phantom too, presumably to tie it in with Love Never Dies... These were never there before and it sounds like they've retconned more stuff that makes no sense. Giry isn't supposed to be the Phantom's friend - that makes a mockery out of him saying 'no compassion anywhere' etc. It's a borrow from the film where they change his backstory (in a way that doesn't make sense either). As for the tie-in with Paint Never Dries...urgh. Except...the powers-that-be repeatedly said this was an 'enhanced' and 'more polished' version that was 'even more opulent' and 'bigger and better than ever'. Repeatedly. They've unnecessarily cheapened it. There was no business reason to do so other than greed. It of course needed some TLC and deserved to be spruced up, but this could have easily been done without compromising quality. Instead, they chose to compromise quality, lie to everyone, and treat the people who made this show what it was terribly. I can imagine if you'd never seen Phantom before, you might enjoy it. But by alienating fans who knew it well, no wonder the show's doing badly. |
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Post by og on Jul 7, 2022 16:02:46 GMT
I noticed a couple of little things that I know weren't there in the Hamburg production (but I'm not sure if they were previously there in London) - after the unmasking following Point of No Return the Phantom ran stage right and bumped into Madame Giry, looked at her imploringly as if asking for her help, and she just shook her head and walked slowly back into the wings. Then as Christine and Raoul were sailing off in the boat Christine turned and sang her final lines through the portcullis to the Phantom rather than looking up and singing them to Raoul - I know that in the 25th anniversary production Sierra turned and sang her lines to the Phantom too, presumably to tie it in with Love Never Dies... These were never there before and it sounds like they've retconned more stuff that makes no sense. Giry isn't supposed to be the Phantom's friend - that makes a mockery out of him saying 'no compassion anywhere' etc. It's a borrow from the film where they change his backstory (in a way that doesn't make sense either).As for the tie-in with Paint Never Dries...urgh. Except...the powers-that-be repeatedly said this was an 'enhanced' and 'more polished' version that was 'even more opulent' and 'bigger and better than ever'. Repeatedly. They've unnecessarily cheapened it. There was no business reason to do so other than greed. It of course needed some TLC and deserved to be spruced up, but this could have easily been done without compromising quality. Instead, they chose to compromise quality, lie to everyone, and treat the people who made this show what it was terribly. I can imagine if you'd never seen Phantom before, you might enjoy it. But by alienating fans who knew it well, no wonder the show's doing badly. It's a long time since I've read it (so I could be misremembering) but I'm fairly sure in the novel Mdm Giry has a platonic relationship of sorts with Phntm, she was his tie into the Opera Garnier managing his box 'Box 5'. The Managers fire Giry because of her claimed interactions with him and phantom kills her planned replacement with the chandelier crash. This is hugely played down in the musical but interpolated into the writing and direction of behaviour between Giry and Managers, Raoul even confers with her before the final lair as he knows she has information about his behaviour etc. |
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Post by scarpia on Jul 7, 2022 17:55:53 GMT
These were never there before and it sounds like they've retconned more stuff that makes no sense. Giry isn't supposed to be the Phantom's friend - that makes a mockery out of him saying 'no compassion anywhere' etc. It's a borrow from the film where they change his backstory (in a way that doesn't make sense either).As for the tie-in with Paint Never Dries...urgh. Except...the powers-that-be repeatedly said this was an 'enhanced' and 'more polished' version that was 'even more opulent' and 'bigger and better than ever'. Repeatedly. They've unnecessarily cheapened it. There was no business reason to do so other than greed. It of course needed some TLC and deserved to be spruced up, but this could have easily been done without compromising quality. Instead, they chose to compromise quality, lie to everyone, and treat the people who made this show what it was terribly. I can imagine if you'd never seen Phantom before, you might enjoy it. But by alienating fans who knew it well, no wonder the show's doing badly. It's a long time since I've read it (so I could be misremembering) but I'm fairly sure in the novel Mdm Giry has a platonic relationship of sorts with Phntm, she was his tie into the Opera Garnier managing his box 'Box 5'. The Managers fire Giry because of her claimed interactions with him and phantom kills her planned replacement with the chandelier crash. This is hugely played down in the musical but interpolated into the writing and direction of behaviour between Giry and Managers, Raoul even confers with her before the final lair as he knows she has information about his behaviour etc. Not quite. She has no real relationship with him in the novel other than to manage Box 5, as you say. She has never seen him and knows nothing of where he lives. She manages Box 5 because the Phantom insists on this; in return, she gets some money and the Phantom promises her that he will arrange for her daughter to rise into the ranks of French nobility (which does actually happen). In the show, she's still not his friend (other than in the retconned Love Never Dies universe). She saw him in a travelling fair (but did NOT help him into the opera house, as in the film) and knew enough about his past to put 2 and 2 together to know his identity and to work out where he lives. That's it. Her role in the stage show is basically fulfilling the function of the Persian in the novel. |
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Post by sukhavati on Jul 8, 2022 0:02:48 GMT
It's a long time since I've read it (so I could be misremembering) but I'm fairly sure in the novel Mdm Giry has a platonic relationship of sorts with Phntm, she was his tie into the Opera Garnier managing his box 'Box 5'. The Managers fire Giry because of her claimed interactions with him and phantom kills her planned replacement with the chandelier crash. This is hugely played down in the musical but interpolated into the writing and direction of behaviour between Giry and Managers, Raoul even confers with her before the final lair as he knows she has information about his behaviour etc. Not quite. She has no real relationship with him in the novel other than to manage Box 5, as you say. She has never seen him and knows nothing of where he lives. She manages Box 5 because the Phantom insists on this; in return, she gets some money and the Phantom promises her that he will arrange for her daughter to rise into the ranks of French nobility (which does actually happen). In the show, she's still not his friend (other than in the retconned Love Never Dies universe). She saw him in a travelling fair (but did NOT help him into the opera house, as in the film) and knew enough about his past to put 2 and 2 together to know his identity and to work out where he lives. That's it. Her role in the stage show is basically fulfilling the function of the Persian in the novel. I think that's one of the factors that really made me hate the film. It takes away so much of the character's agency, because he's no longer traveling the continent as an adult, he hasn't had the opportunity to become an architect or any of the other things that made the original character so fascinating. Well, that and grooming child Christine - very creepy. And Butler's "singing." Ugh. If Erik had been hidden in the opera house basement throughout his entire adolescence and adulthood, that fact alone creates many more questions than answers. |
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Post by Stephen on Jul 30, 2022 22:45:51 GMT
Anyone know when the new cast recording will be released? Single has been out for a while…
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Post by WireHangers on Jul 30, 2022 23:53:23 GMT
Anyone know when the new cast recording will be released? Single has been out for a while… Wasn't it just the single that was being released, it wasn't an entire album. |
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Post by scarpia on Jul 31, 2022 15:25:16 GMT
Anyone know when the new cast recording will be released? Single has been out for a while… Around the same time the 'brilliant original' is returning to Her Majesty's Theatre 'in its entirety', as ALW has been at pains to assure everyone... Which is also around the same time I suppose that Cinderella will premiere on Broadway. |
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Post by anthony on Aug 11, 2022 1:54:41 GMT
Anyone seen the new cast yet? (or, at least, the new Raoul and Carlotta?)
I am really disappointed to have missed Ashely Stillburn as either Phantom or Raoul... but it always came up on Westend Understudies too late for me to sort out tickets. He's wonderful, but it seems that he's quit professional acting? Seems he's enrolled onto a PGCE starting next month. Such a shame.
I'm really tempted to see it again (as much as I dislike the majority of the cast in their roles and the changes... it's still Phantom!)
Does Donnelly have any off nights? I know Gant always did the old Sunday performances, so I assume he has at least one planned performance a week?
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Post by inthenose on Aug 11, 2022 2:32:16 GMT
No buzz for this. Donnelly and St. Louis have to go. Desperate state at the moment. Incredibly, after only just opening a new production, this needs a complete reboot already.
They can’t mess about any more. The show needs some real class put into it.
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Post by bobbievanhusen on Aug 11, 2022 16:39:40 GMT
I dont believe there has been any buzz around POTO for about 25 years. Certainly none that reached the home counties
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Post by max on Aug 11, 2022 17:14:52 GMT
I dont believe there has been any buzz around POTO for about 25 years. Certainly none that reached the home counties It's interesting that there never seems to be any attempt to create a buzz around it. It's well due for some eye-catching casting, gimmick casting that turns out to be genius even. Limited engagement for Steve Harley is my bid. |
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Post by BurlyBeaR on Aug 11, 2022 17:27:48 GMT
I dont believe there has been any buzz around POTO for about 25 years. Certainly none that reached the home counties There was plenty about it on here before it reopened! If you can call it “buzz” 😲😆 |
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Post by danb on Aug 11, 2022 18:04:04 GMT
I dont believe there has been any buzz around POTO for about 25 years. Certainly none that reached the home counties It's interesting that there never seems to be any attempt to create a buzz around it. It's well due for some eye-catching casting, gimmick casting that turns out to be genius even. Limited engagement for Steve Harley is my bid. I’d like to hear a great rock voice sing it. A modern day Ian Gillan or similar. |
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Post by og on Aug 11, 2022 18:46:36 GMT
I dont believe there has been any buzz around POTO for about 25 years. Certainly none that reached the home counties It's interesting that there never seems to be any attempt to create a buzz around it. It's well due for some eye-catching casting, gimmick casting that turns out to be genius even. Limited engagement for Steve Harley is my bid. I think a perceived potential issue around creating a 'buzz' now (without due cause) for a show thats been functional in some form or other for 36 years, is that to do something that gets people talking (for the right reason that is, not sacking half the crew & orchestra) you then potentially affect longevity when the buzz period ends. At the moment the cogs are turning, seats are selling and until CMLtd has recouped on the expense of refitting the show and lost takings through 2020/21, they're not going to rock the boat. It's had some new oil and couple of new ball bearings, but to do some stunt mega cast for a short engagement for the sake of creating a buzz, then risks lethargy afterwards as it all goes back to normal. If for now it's breaking even they're not likely to jeopardise that. Doesn't stop us doing some wild speculation and dreaming. If they really wanted to kick-start a bit of buzz, bringing Michael Crawford back as one of the Managers or Piangi would get a lot of attention. |
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Post by max on Aug 11, 2022 20:37:44 GMT
All really good points og.
I guess they could do some special casting stints at particular anniversaries - but they've done those elsewhere at grand scale, which somewhat masks (sorry!) the risk you talk about, of going back to 'just ordinary' afterwards.
But who might like the challenge of a long run in a show?
Russell Watson - yes, I cringe at the obviousness, but what if his acting turned out to be great?
How about an actor for Phantom where it's little known that they sing well, and they'd enjoy surprising people by wanting to do it?
If only Sammy Davis Jnr had played it on Broadway, I think a whole further mystique would have grown up around it.
p.s Brian Blessed for Piangi.
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Post by mrbarnaby on Aug 11, 2022 23:10:39 GMT
To be fair they did try and create some buzz around Lucy St Louis’ casting.
Clearly tourists haven’t returned yet to London at pre pandemic levels so phantom was always going to struggle to fill seats.
They should close it down and let’s get a nice new show in there.
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