The Phantom of the Opera - His Majesty's Theatre

That’s a shame. Like the original Les Mis I took it for granted it would be running for years yet, and I never got around to seeing it.

Hahahaha that gave me a good chuckle thanks

I wonder would we make such comments if it was our money? I take the mick out of Kenwright because his thrift is legendary and almost a positive reason to go to one of his shows.

If some sort of decline or key cost is being hit because of current market circumstances, you would do what hou could to alleviate it surely? If it’s this or closing you would certainly experiment with a few things before throwing in the towel?

I'm suitably intrigued by that..

Sound board mixes are sometimes surprisingly strange to listen to - it doesn't always sound the same as the theatre does.

I don't remember being as struck by the 2012 tour's orchestrations (or anything about it, but that's a different story) as I was with the London staging. May well be mixed differently, who knows..

I remain hopeful.

Fake news, nothing is changing, it's the brilliant original, ALW and CM are wonderful etc etc etc.

We knew this was happening so what else is there to say? Nothing to do with COVID, these plans have been in the making for ages.

I've had hit-and-miss experiences with the 14-piece orchestration. Mostly misses. With 16 it can work OK so I was hoping they would at least use that given this is a sit-down production, but clearly CM just doesn't care any more. They used the 14-piece one for the Hamburg revival and it was noticeably a downgrade. Particularly awful was the moment where the music should swell just before Twisted Every Way in the second managers scene...it sounded rather lame.

Not to mention the loss of all that know-how! Several of the people who haven't even been contacted by CM & RUG (they've just been left in the dark) had worked on that show since it opened.

When does Mackintosh have the Laurence Connor version become the only version?

Half the orchestra, the touring version, but still West End prices.

I'm afraid as far as I am concerned you are the one missing the point. The vast majority of people who see Phantom will not be musicians. If they hear a 14-strong orchestra then that is what they will associate with the show. They won't feel like they are missing out as they won't know anything else. Plus if many of those who have seen it before haven't seen it for as long as it has been since I was last there (about a decade), they probably won't remember how it used to be.

And I suspect most people won't have a clue what a 19th Century opera house is supposed to sound like. As I have classical music experience I do, but I am well aware I am in the minority. Some people may listen to the cast recording but many won't, and many who do won't know it in enough detail to realise they are missing something.

There are a lot of people on this thread assuming most audience members are as detail-oriented as the superfans, when they just aren't.

And if you think business decisions stop the moment a show breaks even or makes a profit, then you are incredibly commercially naive. Historical success is completely irrelevant when the rent and running costs still have to be paid now. And profit breeds want for more profit. Simple as that.

You are entitled to have a romanticised view of Phantom and its operation, as you clearly do, but you need to understand that romanticism and commercial reality do not go together, no matter how much anyone wants them to.

I think you underestimate the audience. The 14-piece orchestra does sound noticeably weaker even with modern technology even to those with untrained ears. They used it for the Hamburg revival in 2014 and at the Q&A I attended after the show there were several comments from the audience who said they felt it was thinner (though to be fair, the reduced orchestra had a fair amount of publicity in Hamburg due to the associations of that town with the original production which ran there for a decade). Honestly, I think they could have got away with 16-18 in the pit without compromising too much on quality...14 is a stretch. Also, a lot of the Phantom audience is made up of repeat visitors. I think they'll know. And I don't just mean the superfans who've seen it a billion times. I was surprised overhearing two women seeing the Laurence Connor tour in Bristol in 2012 about how well they remembered the Hal Prince production a decade earlier (and their comparisons with what they had just seen were not favourable). And this show has also hyped up the size of its orchestra before - even as recently as 2019: lwtheatres.co.uk/summer-of-andrew-lloyd-webber/

In a show like Phantom, the orchestra is a character in the show itself given it's set in an opera house (indeed, they're even brought into the action in some of the pastiche opera scenes). Having those players in the pit vastly contributes to the atmosphere and even when I first saw the show in the late 80s, it's what captivated me (and back then I knew very little about the theatre but it was the presence of all those live players that fascinated me and made me want to go back).

A 27-piece orchestra was a luxury, to be sure, and I am surprised it lasted this long. And yes, the running costs for this show are high. But I think the combined effect of a 14-piece orchestration on top of the downscaling of the set designs will be detrimental to the look, sound, and overall impression the show makes. There is only so much you can cut before the whole production starts to collapse. 

On a separate note, I am saddened most not by the loss of the players to the show but how they've been treated. One had told me only a month ago that they had no word from the production. The anxiety throughout 2020 of not knowing whether or not the job would be there post-pandemic is not something I would wish on anyone. I wish the producers had been more upfront about their plans with the cast, the crew, the orchestra, and indeed the public rather than initially denying anything was changing at all.

With the gutting of Les Mis and now Phantom, Cam Mac really got me out here defending these two shows..! Not my faves but I thought it was amazing that you could still see the original 80s productions that launched British musical theatre to be what it is today. A great shame that they didnt get a proper send off and that Cameron is going to try and tout that they are still the same. I agree a general tourist might not notice, but thats not the point. (Although the loss of the turntable could confuse non-thespies who discuss seeing it at different times..!)