Volume of musicals

That would be lovely, I'd love to go to a musical like that. I went to "Some Enchanted Evening" at Cadogan Hall the other day and a man behind me was moaning about the fact that the singers had mics, guess he'd want to go to a non-amplified show too.

Never been to one that was too loud. In fact, given the choice I'd crank up the volume a bit on most things.

I think I might be a bit mutton! 

I have no objection to cranking up the volume, as long as it doesn't compromise quality by getting so loud the sound is fuzzy. In big, exciting songs I feel that a decent volume really helps the atmosphere. Something like Mamma Mia is a prime example, but I agree that having it so loud it causes local tremors is a bit far!

The idea of a non-amplified show is an interesting one, and it works well in small venues, but with big shows amplification is just as much about balance as it is about filling the space with sound. Making sure that the voices aren't drowned out by the band, but also that within the band every instrument can be heard and each part of the score brought to its full potential, is vital to musical theatre. It'd be disappointing if composers created beautiful music but we never got to hear it properly.

Part of the issue is also that, while projection of the voice is a vital part of training for any singer, it is just one of many things to take into account when performing. Opera singers train for much longer than musical theatre performers, and spend a lot longer concentrating on projection in every part of their vocal range, hence why they can fill large venues without amplification (but then they usually don't have to run around or dance at the same time). I've always found the opera vs musical theatre comparison very interesting, and this is a prime reason why.

and mics and amplification lead to my pet peeve, which is the voices seemingly coming from everywhere but the performer - a convention we just have to accept. Wrong!

Yup, I'm in with keeping it cranked up. Always drowns out the noise of the audience...

I like the music to be quite loud as long as I can still hear the performers. The only one I thought was too loud was Sunny Afternoon - I couldn't make out any of the lyrics because the music overpowered the vocals so much.

Like most posters on here I generally like a bit of volume. The Bodyguard benefits I think for example. But I also like unmiked, natural sound in fringe venues too. The quality of the sound is what matters. The volume in Regents Park recently for JCS was thrilling!

The only time I thought the volume too loud was for Tommy at the Shaftesbury many years ago when I genuinely thought the plaster was going to come off the walls!!!

During We Will Rock You's run at the Dominion it wasn't rare to see a few small bits of plaster drop onto stage towards the end of the show. It wasn't ever anything to worry about apparently and the theatre was regularly inspected.

Volume is a tricky mess of a thing.

A lot of people in this thread seem to be having more trouble with the balance between orchestra and vocals, which is a whole different issue, and varies be designer and operator. All I can say is that vocal intelligibility is my number one aim, and I will pull the band back to faint whisper if I have to.

As to why shows are so much louder these days, it is down to a number of factors. Firstly, theatres are MUCH noisier places than they used to be. Big shows use a lot of modern lighting and projection equipment which have fans in for cooling that create a lot of white noise, and producers hate being able to here the motors for things like flys and trucks. All this has to be drowned out by the sound.

Another thing hated by producers is being able to hear footsteps and people moving, so sound will often be loud in small venues where they don't want people 6 feet away to here that a person is walking...

Additionally, audiences are noisier and more restless too, and it all adds up. Another big factor is what we term passive listening. Go to the opera, people lean forward and focus their ears to hear. Musical theatre audiences, used to high definition sound at home, lie back and expect the audio to be pushed to them. Hence requests from the public for shows to get louder. It wasn't that long ago where musicals were quieter. Go see Wicked on Broadway and contrast it with London. Much quieter.

I have head reports in recent years of operators having arguments with designers/producers or even walking due to the so sound level they are being instructed to do. A friend was told to "Buy some ear plugs". But additionally, producers are often unwilling to pay for enough decent quality speakers (and speaker control) to create that level of sound they want, and as you turn up a system it becomes more distorted and so more painful to listen to.

Volume is something that should be a show specific design choice. RENT should be a whole lot louder than Merrily We Roll Along. A quiet We Will Rock You should be seen as just as bad as a loud Carousel. But the number of times I have mixed a dress rehearsal or first preview at an acceptable level (in agreement with the rest of the sound team) and my first note from producer or director been "It was alright... but can we get it louder."

Another factor is trying to make your cut down 5 piece band sound like original 60 piece Broadway recording of 50 years previous. Now, sound designers know it won't work, but producers/directors won't listen and just ask for more.

Something else is that producers and cast members see a radio mic as an excuse. Terrible diction and projection are now rife, with the actor expecting his low mumble to translate to to the rear of the upper circle, when all you really get is a loud mumble instead.

Sorry for the big rambling disjointed post, but thought I should outline how we ended up with shows much louder than they used to be.

Oh, and I assure you City of Angels did use radio mics. There is an interview with the sound designers here, click the 2nd link, it is a backstage PDF thing. www.google.co.uk/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#safe=off&q=city+of+angels+donmar+sound
And localising sound so it sounds like it is coming from the actor is possible, but very expensive and time consuming to set up. It has been done on mic'ed operas at the Albert Hall for a while using a system called TiMax, and Aladdin is the first West End musical to use it. Haven't seen the show so can't comment on how successful it has been in this case, but the tech is there (and improving!)

Don't be sorry at all, it was fascinating and informative, thank you. More than anything it's lovely to know that there are sound designers out there that don't like how loud the shows are.

This conversation about unwanted noise reminds me of something that happened at the Royal Opera House when I working there. There were some lights with a colour scroller on the front of them, that makes a little noise when it changes to another colour in the scroll. One patron clearly didn’t like this noise and took it upon himself to unplug the colour scroller, which left the light stuck on a rather noticeable colour when the light was on in certain cues. Luckily it was picked up quite quickly and plugged back in. The nerve of some people at theatre (or any public space) really does astound me sometimes.

Perhaps this should belong in the bad behaviour thread but seemed relevant here.