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Post by duncan on Nov 12, 2024 12:44:30 GMT
If I ran the West End (and of course ignored all business sense) then EVERYTHING would be time limited to 2 years.
More openings.
More buzz.
More PR.
More American stars looking awkward after watching a report about Cheese rolling whilst they are on The One Show.
And not a single "new production of..." anything for at least a decade. If the National, for example, puts on a production of Cat on a Hot Tin Roof then thats it across all of London for 10 years.
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Post by Jon on Nov 12, 2024 12:56:22 GMT
Building more theatres in the West End is not going to happen because land is a premium and it's super expensive as well. @sohoplace only happened because of the Crossrail/EL development because they demolished the Astoria so they had to replace it.
What are we are seeing is more theatres build outside the WE bubble like the Troubadour Wembley Park Theatre, the Bridge and the upcoming Olympia Theatre which at 1576 seats fills the gap of a midsized theatre for shows of scale. That's not to mention that Lightroom in King's Cross is planned to become a theatre within a couple of years.
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Post by pb on Nov 12, 2024 13:14:00 GMT
The lion king has become the go to show for families to take young children to as their first proper show. Most of these people are infrequent theatre goers and most are from outside London. But when they do come down Lion King is top of the list. Have a read through some of the family theatre facebook groups, there is still a massive demand for the show. The biggest complaint tends to be that seat prices can be crazy high. Unless people stop reproducing I can’t see the flow of new customers drying up anytime soon.
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Post by SilverFox on Nov 12, 2024 13:19:36 GMT
Building more theatres in the West End is not going to happen because land is a premium and it's super expensive as well. @sohoplace only happened because of the Crossrail/EL development because they demolished the Astoria so they had to replace it. What are we are seeing is more theatres build outside the WE bubble like the Troubadour Wembley Park Theatre, the Bridge and the upcoming Olympia Theatre which at 1576 seats fills the gap of a midsized theatre for shows of scale. That's not to mention that Lightroom in King's Cross is planned to become a theatre within a couple of years. It is also important to note that none of the examples mentioned in the second paragraph are stand-alone developments. They are all "cultural" aspects of a much larger development / regeneration package. Nothing in the West End compares in terms of scale, and so (as stated) the only 'new' theatres are likely to be replacements for existing or former ones. Theatre ownership is just not sufficiently profitable. It is currently unclear how, or if, these new off-west-end theatres will survive. |
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Post by blamerobots on Nov 12, 2024 13:20:00 GMT
I agree with viserys, as I often do about things like this lol. I just want the West End to be more accessible to new shows on bigger stages and make it easier for them to attract an audience. Just more equal of an opportunity, so shows have the chance to go in the places that are right for their size. I think this thread has manifested somewhat from a subconscious desire many in this community share for some new works in a currently stale West End. We've gotten some great new works recently but there needs to be much more. I do agree there probably is job security in a show that's been long-running, but I think it stunts development and innovation, and it doesn't matter when some long-running shows are actually cutting down on staff to simplify themselves (Phantom, Les Mis especially!!) |
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Post by Jon on Nov 12, 2024 13:22:49 GMT
The Lion King is also still going strong in cities like Hamburg, Madrid and Tokyo as well as London and New York.
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Post by Jon on Nov 12, 2024 13:29:24 GMT
Building more theatres in the West End is not going to happen because land is a premium and it's super expensive as well. @sohoplace only happened because of the Crossrail/EL development because they demolished the Astoria so they had to replace it. What are we are seeing is more theatres build outside the WE bubble like the Troubadour Wembley Park Theatre, the Bridge and the upcoming Olympia Theatre which at 1576 seats fills the gap of a midsized theatre for shows of scale. That's not to mention that Lightroom in King's Cross is planned to become a theatre within a couple of years. It is also important to note that none of the examples mentioned in the second paragraph are stand-alone developments. They are all "cultural" aspects of a much larger development / regeneration package. Nothing in the West End compares in terms of scale, and so (as stated) the only 'new' theatres are likely to be replacements for existing or former ones. Theatre ownership is just not sufficiently profitable. It is currently unclear how, or if, these new off-west-end theatres will survive. The Bridge has a very long lease so it's safe, The Olympia is being run by Trafalgar Entertainment and I would imagine they'd want to attract the best shows to fill it and also on a long lease. One theatre I forgot to mention is the Soho Theatre Walthamstow which will bring a new venue to an area that is a bit lacking in cultural activities. |
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Post by BVM on Nov 12, 2024 13:50:15 GMT
I mean - there have been loads of new shows over the last couple of years - vast majority of which have not stuck around! Just look at all the threads on this forum..... They are there! Fact that they don't catch on or interest people is a different matter!
Playing devil's advocate slightly, but closing 10 cash cows so we can have ANOTHER 10 new shows that don't catch on seems a bit daft to me?!
If anyone can provide a list of 10 great new shows that could replace the 10 long runners, I am all ears :-)
(I am not dissuaded that they could replace themselves with new versions; though the ratio is about 5 misses to 1 hit. Every single new production of Sunset was inferior to the Nunn/Napier original until finally JL came along!)
I may well be showing my ignorance, but if there is a list of big musicals in the holding pattern in the sky waiting for a landing slot in one of our big theatres, I'd love to hear it! Not much point wishing them gone unless there is a better (for this time and place) alternative.... Deep down don't we all know that in these theatres they'd be replaced by (possibly worse) jukebox/film tat for the hen parties et al? I think it's a good example of be careful what you wish for lol!
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Post by SilverFox on Nov 12, 2024 13:58:06 GMT
I mean - there have been loads of new shows over the last couple of years - vast majority of which have not stuck around! Just look at all the threads on this forum..... They are there! Fact that they don't catch on or interest people is a different matter! Playing devil's advocate slightly, but closing 10 cash cows so we can have ANOTHER 10 new shows that don't catch on seems a bit daft to me?! If anyone can provide a list of 10 great new shows that could replace the 10 long runners, I am all ears :-) I may well be showing my ignorance, but if there is a list of big musicals in the holding pattern in the sky waiting for a landing slot in one of our big theatres, I'd love to hear it! Not much point wishing them gone unless there is a better (for this time and place) alternative.... Another good point.
Investing in theatre is - at best - a very risky enterprise. People do it partially (apparently) because of a love of the medium, and partly because the reward CAN (rarely) be vast. If you lose the cash cows which do generate a reward for investing, where will the money come from to stage new works? Cats / POTO / LM / MM etc are hugely profitable - if new investment is required then limiting a shows potential will either curtail investment or lead to even higher ticket prices than we are currently (rightly) complaining about.
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Post by Jon on Nov 12, 2024 14:07:33 GMT
I mean - there have been loads of new shows over the last couple of years - vast majority of which have not stuck around! Just look at all the threads on this forum..... They are there! Fact that they don't catch on or interest people is a different matter! Playing devil's advocate slightly, but closing 10 cash cows so we can have ANOTHER 10 new shows that don't catch on seems a bit daft to me?! If anyone can provide a list of 10 great new shows that could replace the 10 long runners, I am all ears :-) (I am not dissuaded that they could replace themselves with new versions; though the ratio is about 5 misses to 1 hit. Every single new production of Sunset was inferior to the Nunn/Napier original until finally JL came along!) I may well be showing my ignorance, but if there is a list of big musicals in the holding pattern in the sky waiting for a landing slot in one of our big theatres, I'd love to hear it! Not much point wishing them gone unless there is a better (for this time and place) alternative.... Deep down don't we all know that in these theatres they'd be replaced by (possibly worse) jukebox/film tat for the hen parties et al? I think it's a good example of be careful what you wish for lol! 1-2 long runners closing wouldn't be a big deal and indeed, I wasn't unhappy when The Woman in Black closed because it freed up the Fortune after 30+ years or when Blood Brothers closed at the Phoenix because that theatre was freed up but 10 closing at once would be seen as a sign the theatre industry was in crisis. We've seen how difficult is it to replace a long runner, the Dominion went from having WWRY for 12 years then it couldn't find a show that could run longer than more than 18 months with lots of fillers inbetween and with The Devil Wears Prada, that streak of unsuccessful shows has finally been broken. Having said that, I wouldn't mind having the Playhouse back even though Cabaret is still doing decent business. |
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Post by unseaworthy on Nov 12, 2024 14:14:56 GMT
It does feel like a lot of these long runners discount regularly... Perhaps a new show might make better business if they were able to sell more at full price?
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Post by viserys on Nov 12, 2024 14:29:50 GMT
I think this thread has manifested somewhat from a subconscious desire many in this community share for some new works in a currently stale West End. We've gotten some great new works recently but there needs to be much more. Yea - and I don't think anyone would advocate for closing ALL ten long-runners very abruptly. But there's definitely a much lower churn rate than on Broadway, so while Broadway has 8-10 new bigger musicals per season, the West End has ... what, 3-4 shows? This is all on my mind mostly because of those announcements for Gatsby and (possibly) Shucked, plus my own inability to fill my trips to London with new shows, so I'm cutting down on those. And yes... more new shows will fail than succeed, it's always been thus. But how can we get new hits if new shows can't even move in? |
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Post by forfivemoreminutes on Nov 12, 2024 14:32:19 GMT
It does feel like a lot of these long runners discount regularly... Perhaps a new show might make better business if they were able to sell more at full price? Do you think? I hardly ever see deals for Phantom, Les Mis, The Lion King, Mamma Mia, BoM etc. A lot of them don’t even have rush and when they are in deals like theatre week they’re not great offers |
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Post by Jon on Nov 12, 2024 14:39:50 GMT
I think this thread has manifested somewhat from a subconscious desire many in this community share for some new works in a currently stale West End. We've gotten some great new works recently but there needs to be much more. Yea - and I don't think anyone would advocate for closing ALL ten long-runners very abruptly. But there's definitely a much lower churn rate than on Broadway, so while Broadway has 8-10 new bigger musicals per season, the West End has ... what, 3-4 shows? This is all on my mind mostly because of those announcements for Gatsby and (possibly) Shucked, plus my own inability to fill my trips to London with new shows, so I'm cutting down on those. And yes... more new shows will fail than succeed, it's always been thus. But how can we get new hits if new shows can't even move in? You can't really compare Broadway to the West End, it's a much more ruthless arena and actually the stability of the West End means that there are hardly any dark theatres and in a tough economic climate, I think theatre owners are happy not to scrambling for a new show. I think it shows that the theatre industry over here is healthy, we have plays selling out like Oedipus, Dr Strangelove and Barcelona and our subsidised theatres are chugging along nicely. The non profit theatres aside from Lincoln Center Theatre with McNeal are limping along by comparison. |
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Post by blamerobots on Nov 12, 2024 15:04:25 GMT
But how can we get new hits if new shows can't even move in? My point exactly; imagine if the Fortune still played the Woman in Black, which had been running for YEARS. We wouldn't have Mincemeat and the stratospheric projectory that has gone. |
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Post by Jon on Nov 12, 2024 15:12:16 GMT
I think OM would have ended up at the Ambassadors or Criterion if the Fortune hadn't suddenly become free, it's always about timing when it comes to theatre availability.
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Post by andypandy on Nov 12, 2024 15:21:00 GMT
I think the argument that the Lion King is dated is a fair one, although not a problem that necessarily needs to be solved with its closure. But if you go and see it, it's clear the production is looking tired after all these years. The jokes are stale, some of the sets have been stripped back. The opening number is still amazing, but it does show its age past that. It would be nice to see Disney Theatrical put some money into making it feel fresh again, if nothing else. Have the sets been made smaller? Parts taken away? Why is the show not fresh? The cast are bad? |
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Post by viserys on Nov 12, 2024 15:21:48 GMT
You can't really compare Broadway to the West End, it's a much more ruthless arena and actually the stability of the West End means that there are hardly any dark theatres and in a tough economic climate, I think theatre owners are happy not to scrambling for a new show. I think it shows that the theatre industry over here is healthy, we have plays selling out like Oedipus, Dr Strangelove and Barcelona and our subsidised theatres are chugging along nicely. The non profit theatres aside from Lincoln Center Theatre with McNeal are limping along by comparison. Umm... a) there are hardly any dark theatres on Broadway either, because they always fill up quickly with new shows and b) you are comparing apples and oranges: The plays that are presently selling out in London are those with very limited runs, so people are hurrying to see them. Which actually proves my point: They are short buzzy sell-out runs, then they close and the next thing moves in and creates a fresh buzz. How would it feel if those couldn't come in because there are 10 Mousetraps clogging up the playhouses? |
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Post by Mark on Nov 12, 2024 15:30:07 GMT
From Broadway - The Notebook, The Outsiders, Hell’s Kitchen, Death Becomes Her, Beetlejuice, Some Like it Hot, Shucked, Parade, Sweeney Todd - all could do well here but almost all would need a 1000+ house (except notebook/shucked)
Closer to home -Becoming Nancy, Groundhog Day, Here & Now, Burlesque, What’s New Pussycat, Bedknobs and Broomsticks, Muriel’s Wedding. I’m sure there’s many others which haven’t come to town due to theatre availability.
The Aldwych/Adelphi/Savoy/Piccadilly/Prince of Wales/Edward/VicPalace/Cambridge/Shaftesbury/Novello/Gielgud are the real sweet spot size for a lot of musicals. Most booked with long runners.
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Post by Jon on Nov 12, 2024 15:34:19 GMT
You can't really compare Broadway to the West End, it's a much more ruthless arena and actually the stability of the West End means that there are hardly any dark theatres and in a tough economic climate, I think theatre owners are happy not to scrambling for a new show. I think it shows that the theatre industry over here is healthy, we have plays selling out like Oedipus, Dr Strangelove and Barcelona and our subsidised theatres are chugging along nicely. The non profit theatres aside from Lincoln Center Theatre with McNeal are limping along by comparison. Umm... a) there are hardly any dark theatres on Broadway either, because they always fill up quickly with new shows and b) you are comparing apples and oranges: The plays that are presently selling out in London are those with very limited runs, so people are hurrying to see them. Which actually proves my point: They are short buzzy sell-out runs, then they close and the next thing moves in and creates a fresh buzz. How would it feel if those couldn't come in because there are 10 Mousetraps clogging up the playhouses? You can count the number of long running plays with one hand and these shows would still come in because there are enough playhouses to sustain them alongside the ones with long runners like The Mousetrap, Harry Potter, TPTGW etc Shows do snap up theatres quickly on Broadway but at the same time, you see shows close quickly and thus leaving theatre owners in a lurch. Tammy Faye closing early when that happens will mean the Palace will be dark for ages since it'll take time to find a replacement. The stability West End theatre owners have is something the Broadway theatre owners would rather have even if it means shows have to wait for an available theatre. New shows are in the pipeline, Just For One Day is taking over Mrs Doubtfire, we have Hercules at Drury Lane after a season of Shakespeare plays and that's just the first half of 2025, we still have plenty of time for more shows to be announced for second half. |
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Post by Jon on Nov 12, 2024 15:39:40 GMT
From Broadway - The Notebook, The Outsiders, Hell’s Kitchen, Death Becomes Her, Beetlejuice, Some Like it Hot, Shucked, Parade, Sweeney Todd - all could do well here but almost all would need a 1000+ house (except notebook/shucked) Closer to home -Becoming Nancy, Groundhog Day, Here & Now, Burlesque, What’s New Pussycat, Bedknobs and Broomsticks, Muriel’s Wedding. I’m sure there’s many others which haven’t come to town due to theatre availability. The Aldwych/Adelphi/Savoy/Piccadilly/Prince of Wales/Edward/VicPalace/Cambridge/Shaftesbury/Novello/Gielgud are the real sweet spot size for a lot of musicals. Most booked with long runners. I think the Olympia Theatre with its 1575 seat capacity will fill that sweet spot for a lot of producers, I imagine it'll open with a revival first before we see a transfer or new show,. |
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Post by Phantom of London on Nov 12, 2024 15:47:34 GMT
So with a few minutes spare I thought I look at all the shows that are open run/clogging up or tourist attractions. I looked at show, theatre,theatre capacity, how it’s selling and likelihood it will go. Also gave the show a mark out of 5, how likely it is to stay 5 being strong, 1 likely to close. Obviously these are my views, so subjective. Back to the Future - Adelphi - 1500 - selling, but at discount - risk of closing soon. 2/5 Tina - The Tina Turner Musical - Aldwych - 1200 - struggling - risk of closing soon. 2/5 Wicked - Apollo Victoria - 2,328 - strong seller, makes money - no risk of closure. 4/5 Matilda the Musical - Cambridge - 1,231 -sells out - not going anywhere. 5/5 Operation Mincemeat - Fortune - 432 - sells out - not going anywhere. 5/5 The Phantom of the Opera - His Majesty’s - 1,216 - sells out - not going anywhere. 5/5 The Lion King - Lyceum - 2,100 - sells out - not going anywhere. 5/5 The Play That Goes Wrong - 494 - Strong Seller, not going anywhere. 4/5 Mamma Mia - Novello - 1,146 - sells out - not going anywhere. 4/5 Harry Potter - Palace - 1,400 - strong seller, makes money - no risk of closure. 5/5 Stranger Things - Phoenix - 1,012 - offered discount ticket on t/tix - don’t know.  ?Moulin Rouge - Piccadilly - 1,232 - sells out - not going anywhere. 5/5 Cabaret - Playhouse - 550 - sales have weakened - vulnerable. 3/5 The Book of Mormon - 1,148 - offered discount ticket on t/tix. Strong seller. 4/5 Les Miserables - 1,137 - sells out - not going anywhere. 5/5 The Mousetrap - 550 - strong seller, cheap to run - not going anywhere. 5/5 Six - Vaudeville - 690 - sells out - not going anywhere. 5/5 Hamilton - Victoria Palace - 1,557 - strong seller - not going anywhere. 4/5 Other MJ - Prince Edward - 1,727 - Sales weak, cheap tickets - very vulnerable. 1/5 Hadestown - Lyric - 915 - Modest seller, discount on t/tix - stable sells out - not going anywhere. 3/5 Mean Girls - Savoy - 1,150 - Modest seller, discount on t/tix - stable sells out - not going anywhere. 3/5 A Christmas Carol - Old Vic - 1,067 strong seller, seasonal favourite - not going anywhere. 4/5 Mrs Doubtfire - Shaftesbury - 1,416 - closing next year. 0/5 The Devil Wears Prada - Dominion - 2,163 - New show. 5/5 Oliver - Gielgud - 994 - New Show - 5/5 |
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Post by Jon on Nov 12, 2024 15:59:28 GMT
I don't think A Christmas Carol should count as it's not a long runner per se, it's only on for 8 weeks per year.
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Post by SilverFox on Nov 12, 2024 16:48:47 GMT
So with a few minutes spare I thought I look at all the shows that are open run/clogging up or tourist attractions. I looked at show, theatre,theatre capacity, how it’s selling and likelihood it will go. Also gave the show a mark out of 5, how likely it is to stay 5 being strong, 1 likely to close. Obviously these are my views, so subjective. Cabaret - Playhouse - 550 - sales have weakened - vulnerable. 3/5 The Playhouse is an exception at present due to the temporary rebuilding of the auditorium. Converting the interior into the Kit-Kat Club was a hugely expensive operation, and I assume that a bond will have been part of the contract to allow restoration back at the end of the run. An extension of 5 years to the period allowed for the initial changes was granted in September this year by Westminster Council, all works had to be fully reversable in nature. I doubt the Kit-Kat arrangement would suit a new show going in, so the Playhouse would likely be closed for some months when Cabaret eventually closes to allow a return to the previous state.
I have no inside knowledge here, but I would be surprised, given the granting of permission to extend the changed layout so recently, if Cabaret were to close anytime soon.
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Post by aspieandy on Nov 12, 2024 17:13:12 GMT
Fwiw, i see the theatre discussed here as a 'gateway' into theatre and the arts for everyone, especially children. Great option for parents, great focal point for family visits to the capital (pre-teens and teens): get 'em early. afaik, the massive 1,500-seater at Olympia is still due to open next year - same size as Sadlers Wells. also, the new Capital Theatre at Westfield, Shepherd’s Bush will have 600+. There's that new one at King's Cross that keeps getting used for other things. The new Sadlers Wells at the other Westfield (Stratford) makes it 3,000 new seats already.
possible to argue the WE is full, nothing wrong with using public transport better.
Can fly around easily enough on the Elizabeth Line, Overground, etc. Not the 1990s anymore, not even the 2010s. Apps like Citymapper make it so easy.
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