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Brexit
Oct 20, 2019 11:53:45 GMT
Post by Deleted on Oct 20, 2019 11:53:45 GMT
With all this talk of a confirmatory referendum what would bind the MPs to follow the result of that any more than they did the 2016 election.
It's like other topics or issues the public would back but MPs wouldn't.
Using a referendum can be seen as asking the public or as a kop out to avoid taking the blame for a difficult decision.
Good points by Kevin above. Parliament does go in a cycle so I'd say Labour should be in a stronger position to get back into power than they are now.
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Brexit
Oct 20, 2019 12:07:04 GMT
Post by londonpostie on Oct 20, 2019 12:07:04 GMT
Have you started contributing substantively to the debate rather than just raising the same question over and over again when you get answers you don't like? I'd love to have a proper debate on this but your one line posts really aren't conducive to that at all, and I've had enough of your condescenion. It’s strange how, in a thread about Brexit, they don’t engage in the substantive debate. Alan Johnson campaigned for remain, so it’s clearly not a postman thing.... Oh, do tell; what is your "substantive debate"? |
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Brexit
Oct 20, 2019 12:21:34 GMT
Post by Deleted on Oct 20, 2019 12:21:34 GMT
It’s strange how, in a thread about Brexit, they don’t engage in the substantive debate. Alan Johnson campaigned for remain, so it’s clearly not a postman thing.... Oh, do tell; what is your "substantive debate"? Debate about support, or otherwise, for Brexit (as the thread is named). I glean that you are a labour supporter but not a remainer? Is that correct? You haven’t said as such, so we are just left guessing. |
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Brexit
Oct 20, 2019 12:42:05 GMT
Post by Deleted on Oct 20, 2019 12:42:05 GMT
This returns to the calibre of our Prime Minister, a man who lies, is contemptuous of the law, and does not uphold /believe in the Democratic principles of this Country. He is a disgrace and mocks every core value we expect of our elected representatives and especially our Prime Minister This is why the unsigned letter is so pathetic, nothing to do with whether it technically complies with the law or not! The spirit of the law is as important as the letter of it (no pun intended) - that is why we have Hansard to aid in legislative interpretation. Boris made his contempt for the former perfectly clear, and that is nothing more than pathetic. Alas, many MPs have made their contempt for voters and the country perfectly clear, and that is nothing more than pathetic. |
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Brexit
Oct 20, 2019 14:14:10 GMT
Post by Deleted on Oct 20, 2019 14:14:10 GMT
I wonder if things will change when John Bercow steps down on 31st October. The new speaker will be chosen on 4th November. I can see the remainers trying to get behind Harriet Harman but Lindsay Hoyle would be the better more neutral choice IMO. He is a Labour MP so should be acceptable to Labour and I think the Tories would be able to live with him.
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Brexit
Oct 20, 2019 18:08:31 GMT
Post by londonpostie on Oct 20, 2019 18:08:31 GMT
Oh, do tell; what is your "substantive debate"? Debate about support, or otherwise, for Brexit (as the thread is named). I glean that you are a labour supporter but not a remainer? Is that correct? You haven’t said as such, so we are just left guessing. More pivoting on this message board today than in a Akram Khan production. |
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Post by NeilVHughes on Oct 20, 2019 19:59:54 GMT
Here is the best summary of what Saturday means and it’s impact on the week ahead I have come across from a series of tweets by Lewis Goodall ( lewis_goodall) a Political Correspondent at Sky News. (A bit long but worth the read) “Huge problems storing up for the govt this week: Plan is to bring Meaningful Vote (MV) back tomorrow. Think almost certain not to happen as Speaker will rule out of order as (i) same issue twice (ii) contradicts Letwin amendment which says Brexit related legislation must be agreed first. There is a common misconception that the Govt pulled the vote on Saturday. They did not. They just didn't bring the motion as amended to a division. It went through on the nod. The House decided something. i.e. Letwin, that there is no deal until Withdrawal Agreement Bill (WAB) passes. That is big. There is a common misconception that the Govt pulled the vote on Saturday. They did not. They just didn't bring the motion as amended to a division. It went through on the nod. The House decided something. i.e. Letwin, that there is no deal until WAB passes. That is big. As a result of that decision, the Speaker has even more justification to refuse the deal coming back. The previous MVs were defeated and the House passed nothing. Yesterday the Commons (when Govt walked away from motion) effectively unanimously agreed and 'resolved' the matter. So that means only route to get the deal through is via the WAB. That is due to take place Tuesday. And that is absolutely fraught with danger. The parliamentary manoeuvres we saw on Saturday will look like a walk in the park compared to the WAB. It will be amended in every direction. This is why Govt wanted to have MV first (same as May's). Establish you have a majority on the deal and hope momentum of that means that coalition of MPs holds throughout the WAB process. There will be lots of attention paid to the sexiest amendment: a second referendum. But that (prob) still doesn't have enough support. The explosive one is a Customs Union (CU) which probably does and crucially has support from Lab MPs who might back deal but would prefer a CU. Expect Labour and others to get behind that amendment because it is in effect a massive wrecking amendment to the government's deal. They know Johnson cannot accept it, cannot negotiate it and it would tear the Tory Party apart. If that happens (and it passes) I don't see any way out for Johnson, other than accepting the reality of the extension and using it to insist on an election where he campaigns for his deal. Tory Party as the Brexit (with a deal) Party. Basically the Govt gave up its best chance of accessing the majority that might well now exist for the deal by not pushing the division on Saturday. Virtually everyone I speak to thinks it was a mistake that they didn't. DUP votes now in play also means everything (in terms of amendments) even more fluid. As one MP put it to me: "If it was a matrix of options before it’s now galaxy of variables post Letwin." Other problems abound. There's no guarantee, for example, that the Govt even has the votes for a programme motion which would set out when, how and for how long the WAB would be debated. i.e. might not even be able to bring the WAB up, or at least, to do so without condition. Entirely possible MPs try and push programme motion for WAB *beyond* this week, so we can't Brexit by October 31st and definitely enter extension. So keep eye out for programme motion vote, which is usually a formality but actually a big moment this week. Possibly the biggest. AND there's the Queen's Speech (QS) Remember that? We were supposed to conclude the votes on it on Monday and Tuesday. But that is all up in the air tomorrow. A vote seems to be planned on Tuesday. Entirely possible Govt could lose. First time on a QS since Stanley Baldwin in 1924. Normally a Govt/PM would resign if that happened. It was traditionally a confidence vote. Thanks to the Fixed Term Parliament Act (FTPA) it no longer is. But big pressure on Corbyn to table a vote of no confidence if Govt does lose. If not then, when? Seems to me this week (alongside EU's response on duration of extension) will determine if we have an election this year. If it's extension to January and becomes clear Govt can't get deal through, election on 5th/12 December most likely. So erm yeah, hold onto your hats (if you haven’t lost them already). big week.” There is some good Political Journalism out there, it does take a some digging which you really shouldn’t have to. |
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Brexit
Oct 20, 2019 20:10:45 GMT
Post by theglenbucklaird on Oct 20, 2019 20:10:45 GMT
Hero of the right with his war mongering speech last year Not a right/left issue, as can be seen by Trump’s reaction. Isolationism has no particular political hue. So now we have Assad still brutalising his people, Russia the main player in the region, Erdogan massacring Kurds as Trump does his ‘who, me?’ schtick. Should there be a moral aspect to foreign intervention? That’s a difficult question but inaction in Syria has been a disastrous advert for the isolationist point of view. So the hero of no one or everyone? |
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2,340 posts
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Brexit
Oct 20, 2019 20:18:19 GMT
Post by theglenbucklaird on Oct 20, 2019 20:18:19 GMT
Here is the best summary of what Saturday means and it’s impact on the week ahead I have come across from a series of tweets by Lewis Goodall ( lewis _goodall) a Political Correspondent at Sky News. (A bit long but worth the read) “Huge problems storing up for the govt this week: Plan is to bring Meaningful Vote (MV) back tomorrow. Think almost certain not to happen as Speaker will rule out of order as (i) same issue twice (ii) contradicts Letwin amendment which says Brexit related legislation must be agreed first. There is a common misconception that the Govt pulled the vote on Saturday. They did not. They just didn't bring the motion as amended to a division. It went through on the nod. The House decided something. i.e. Letwin, that there is no deal until Withdrawal Agreement Bill (WAB) passes. That is big. There is a common misconception that the Govt pulled the vote on Saturday. They did not. They just didn't bring the motion as amended to a division. It went through on the nod. The House decided something. i.e. Letwin, that there is no deal until WAB passes. That is big. As a result of that decision, the Speaker has even more justification to refuse the deal coming back. The previous MVs were defeated and the House passed nothing. Yesterday the Commons (when Govt walked away from motion) effectively unanimously agreed and 'resolved' the matter. So that means only route to get the deal through is via the WAB. That is due to take place Tuesday. And that is absolutely fraught with danger. The parliamentary manoeuvres we saw on Saturday will look like a walk in the park compared to the WAB. It will be amended in every direction. This is why Govt wanted to have MV first (same as May's). Establish you have a majority on the deal and hope momentum of that means that coalition of MPs holds throughout the WAB process. There will be lots of attention paid to the sexiest amendment: a second referendum. But that (prob) still doesn't have enough support. The explosive one is a Customs Union (CU) which probably does and crucially has support from Lab MPs who might back deal but would prefer a CU. Expect Labour and others to get behind that amendment because it is in effect a massive wrecking amendment to the government's deal. They know Johnson cannot accept it, cannot negotiate it and it would tear the Tory Party apart. If that happens (and it passes) I don't see any way out for Johnson, other than accepting the reality of the extension and using it to insist on an election where he campaigns for his deal. Tory Party as the Brexit (with a deal) Party. Basically the Govt gave up its best chance of accessing the majority that might well now exist for the deal by not pushing the division on Saturday. Virtually everyone I speak to thinks it was a mistake that they didn't. DUP votes now in play also means everything (in terms of amendments) even more fluid. As one MP put it to me: "If it was a matrix of options before it’s now galaxy of variables post Letwin." Other problems abound. There's no guarantee, for example, that the Govt even has the votes for a programme motion which would set out when, how and for how long the WAB would be debated. i.e. might not even be able to bring the WAB up, or at least, to do so without condition. Entirely possible MPs try and push programme motion for WAB *beyond* this week, so we can't Brexit by October 31st and definitely enter extension. So keep eye out for programme motion vote, which is usually a formality but actually a big moment this week. Possibly the biggest. AND there's the Queen's Speech (QS) Remember that? We were supposed to conclude the votes on it on Monday and Tuesday. But that is all up in the air tomorrow. A vote seems to be planned on Tuesday. Entirely possible Govt could lose. First time on a QS since Stanley Baldwin in 1924. Normally a Govt/PM would resign if that happened. It was traditionally a confidence vote. Thanks to the Fixed Term Parliament Act (FTPA) it no longer is. But big pressure on Corbyn to table a vote of no confidence if Govt does lose. If not then, when?Seems to me this week (alongside EU's response on duration of extension) will determine if we have an election this year. If it's extension to January and becomes clear Govt can't get deal through, election on 5th/12 December most likely. So erm yeah, hold onto your hats (if you haven’t lost them already). big week.” There is some good Political Journalism out there, it does take a some digging which you really shouldn’t have to. Pressure from who? Be after 31 October won't it? |
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Brexit
Oct 20, 2019 20:28:45 GMT
Post by NeilVHughes on Oct 20, 2019 20:28:45 GMT
theglenbucklaird , the way I read it, the Conservatives, and potentially the SNP & Lib Dems will expect a Vote of No Confidence as you cannot vote down the legislative plans of the Government and then leave them in power until their 5 years are up. With the machinations in play, say we get a referendum amendment passed an Election might not happen until afterwards, If we get a Customs Union amendment it’s could take weeks to get passed e.t.c , no actual requirement to hold a Vote of No Confidence and therefore not guarantee we get one when the 31st is passed.
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Brexit
Oct 20, 2019 20:33:22 GMT
Post by Deleted on Oct 20, 2019 20:33:22 GMT
Debate about support, or otherwise, for Brexit (as the thread is named). I glean that you are a labour supporter but not a remainer? Is that correct? You haven’t said as such, so we are just left guessing. More pivoting on this message board today than in a Akram Khan production. Are you sure you aren’t Corbyn? It’s the not being able to give an answer to a simple question that sets off the alarm bells. |
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Brexit
Oct 20, 2019 20:54:56 GMT
Post by londonpostie on Oct 20, 2019 20:54:56 GMT
A useful, informed contribution by the FT's German man in Brussels for 15 years, talking about why the Empire of Virtue stopped colluding with the Parliamentary remainers - talking about the difference between Johnson (who they view as a long term beast) and Theresa May after announcing her decision to steep down at some point. Also, what Berlin is thinking: www.ft.com/content/1ab8b440-f1bf-11e9-bfa4-b25f11f42901 |
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Brexit
Oct 20, 2019 22:44:56 GMT
Post by Dave25 on Oct 20, 2019 22:44:56 GMT
I think there is a difference between a 2nd referendum and a confirmatory vote between any deal and remain.
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Brexit
Oct 21, 2019 7:35:49 GMT
Post by Latecomer on Oct 21, 2019 7:35:49 GMT
I agree that the Sky news coverage was excellent. Their political editor summed up the points clearly and succinctly and so I didn’t have to spend the report screaming at the TV when their reporters get actual facts WRONG. I have come to an agreement with husband that we can no longer watch the BBC news as it is neither fair nor accurately informative.....it enrages me so much when the news is just no10 press releases regurgitated. I think with the switch to (free to air) sky news at 10 my marriage might survive! They did do a “let’s go and judge opinion in” bit but even that was more thoughtful than the BBC (interviewed young couple in pub, MP for the area and couple who just want to leave but aren’t ranting people)
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Post by NeilVHughes on Oct 21, 2019 8:01:32 GMT
Latecomer still difficult not to equate Sky News with Murdoch, not watched a lot, definitely a shift since it was sold to Comcast.
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754 posts
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Brexit
Oct 21, 2019 13:21:26 GMT
Post by Latecomer on Oct 21, 2019 13:21:26 GMT
Latecomer still difficult not to equate Sky News with Murdoch, not watched a lot, definitely a shift since it was sold to Comcast. Not always as good as last night I think but far better than the BBC coverage and their political editor was spot on yesterday...clear and insightful about what will be just noise and what will not today. |
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Brexit
Oct 21, 2019 17:20:49 GMT
Post by theglenbucklaird on Oct 21, 2019 17:20:49 GMT
theglenbucklaird , the way I read it, the Conservatives, and potentially the SNP & Lib Dems will expect a Vote of No Confidence as you cannot vote down the legislative plans of the Government and then leave them in power until their 5 years are up. With the machinations in play, say we get a referendum amendment passed an Election might not happen until afterwards, If we get a Customs Union amendment it’s could take weeks to get passed e.t.c , no actual requirement to hold a Vote of No Confidence and therefore not guarantee we get one when the 31st is passed. Who cares what the Tories think?? The nasty party. Just don't see the SNP and or Lib Dems pushing for that vote before 31 October? |
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Brexit
Oct 21, 2019 17:21:46 GMT
Post by theglenbucklaird on Oct 21, 2019 17:21:46 GMT
Latecomer still difficult not to equate Sky News with Murdoch, not watched a lot, definitely a shift since it was sold to Comcast. This |
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Brexit
Oct 21, 2019 21:20:46 GMT
Post by Deleted on Oct 21, 2019 21:20:46 GMT
I still fail to see how different parts of the UK can have different laws, look at NI only just having legalised abortion. Surely if there is a UK ALL laws should be the same in all countries otherwise just devolve to each countries' parliaments and we can do away with the House of Commons and Lords.
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Brexit
Oct 21, 2019 21:37:08 GMT
Post by londonpostie on Oct 21, 2019 21:37:08 GMT
If the BBC looks a little simple on Brexit, wait for Kuenssberg and Co to get in general election mode - they treat Corbyn like he's another species.
Talking of Sky, I don't mind Sophie Ridge on Sunday mornings.
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2,761 posts
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Brexit
Oct 21, 2019 23:28:23 GMT
Post by n1david on Oct 21, 2019 23:28:23 GMT
I still fail to see how different parts of the UK can have different laws, look at NI only just having legalised abortion. Surely if there is a UK ALL laws should be the same in all countries otherwise just devolve to each countries' parliaments and we can do away with the House of Commons and Lords. I can't speak with any detail to Northern Ireland, but when Scotland and England entered into the Act of Union in 1707, the Act maintained both legal codes because they didn't feel the need to unite them. It was a union of equals, and there was no sense that one legal code should dominate over the other. Scottish law is very different from English law (consider the 'Not Proven' verdict for starters). It's part of the joy of having an unwritten constitution. I can't imagine that any government would try to unite the two codes. |
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1,863 posts
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Brexit
Oct 22, 2019 12:56:41 GMT
via mobile
Post by NeilVHughes on Oct 22, 2019 12:56:41 GMT
We could be in an interesting position tonight / tomorrow
- Parliament agrees to leave the EU by approving the second reading of the Withdrawal Bill.
- Government pulls the Bill due to the request for additional time or agreement to amendment(s) they do not like.
Changes the narrative, how can Parliament be against Brexit if they voted for it only for the Government to not allow the Bill to become Law.
Johnson and Co could scupper their Election strategy as the Opposition Parties can claim the Conservatives are the Party that stopped Brexit.
What we really need now is time to Debate the Bill fully, introduce sane amendments making the Deal the Parliamentary Deal and not the Tory (ERG) Deal it is now.
There is support for a Custom Union removing the need for the Ireland only backstop, Protected Rights, and some of the other sane amendments which have been raised making it all closer to the Leave promised in the referendum.
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Brexit
Oct 22, 2019 13:21:28 GMT
Post by londonpostie on Oct 22, 2019 13:21:28 GMT
Amazing how much you can get done when Whitehall and the Treasury stop briefing against the PM, when Berlin and Brussels sit on their hands, and the Minister for Culture, Media and whatever mentions the BBC model looks a bit dated.
Are we in danger of democracy breaking out ..
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1,863 posts
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Brexit
Oct 22, 2019 13:30:12 GMT
via mobile
Post by NeilVHughes on Oct 22, 2019 13:30:12 GMT
londonpostie if we get the time to debate properly and manage to produce a Parliamentary Deal with the amendments raised believe we could be. EU in their inimitable style agreed to an extension this morning “we do not want to be the ones to instigate a No-Deal scenario’ Also what appears to be the ‘Parliamentary Deal’ is fairly close to the Deal the EU want so will happily enter renewed negotiations.
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Post by vdcni on Oct 22, 2019 14:05:05 GMT
So democracy breaking out is forcing through a deal with next to no scrutiny and which, going by his comments today, Johnson doesn't even understand the implications of which could still lead to a no deal situation further down the line while the government threaten to pull the bill if there any attempts to amend it or spend more than a few days debating it.
Some democracy.
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