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Post by sf on Sept 8, 2019 19:45:42 GMT
Me neither. Any form of Brexit will inflict a certain degree of economic harm, all but the very softest form of Brexit will strip established rights from every single UK citizen and impose unnecessary difficulties on EU citizens living in the UK, and there is no tangible benefit.
But we now get to decide ourselves to inflict economic harm?
Which is fascinating given that the Leave campaigns promised we'd be better off outside the EU.
Now, that was obviously a barefaced lie, and the ridiculous claims about hundreds of millions a week extra for the NHS and all the rest of it were widely debunked at the time - but it was a seductive lie, and people bought it. The kind of messy, destructive scenario we're facing now was absolutely not on the table in 2016.
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Brexit
Sept 8, 2019 19:55:17 GMT
Post by londonpostie on Sept 8, 2019 19:55:17 GMT
But we now get to decide ourselves to inflict economic harm?
Which is fascinating given that the Leave campaigns promised we'd be better off outside the EU.
Now, that was obviously a barefaced lie, and the ridiculous claims about hundreds of millions a week extra for the NHS and all the rest of it were widely debunked at the time - but it was a seductive lie, and people bought it. The kind of messy, destructive scenario we're facing now was absolutely not on the table in 2016.
This is just not the case. The Leave campaign promised £350 million a week for the NHS i.e. for societal betterment, not personal betterment
No definition of Populism suggests personal finaincial circs as a motivating factor. Not ever, in any academic studies. The essence of Populism is cultural. Pretty well everyone assumes the economy will take a hit, it's expected.
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Post by sf on Sept 8, 2019 20:07:52 GMT
This is just not the case. The Leave campaign promised £350 million a week for the NHS i.e. for societal betterment, not personal betterment
Indeed, which is why I wrote that they promised we'd be better off - that is, that society would be better off - and referenced the promise of millions for the NHS in the following sentence - a quote you omitted, presumably because it didn't fit the way you wanted to twist my argument into something I didn't say. I said nothing at all about personal financial circumstances, and the meaning of "we" was perfectly clear from the surrounding context.
I certainly don't expect people to agree with everything I post. This is a discussion board, and it would be pointless, not to mention incredibly dull, if everyone here always agreed. If you're going to argue a point, though, please try to argue the point I actually made, rather than a deliberate, carefully disingenuous misinterpretation of it. Thanks.
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Brexit
Sept 8, 2019 20:26:36 GMT
Post by londonpostie on Sept 8, 2019 20:26:36 GMT
But we now get to decide ourselves to inflict economic harm?
Which is fascinating given that the Leave campaigns promised we'd be better off outside the EU.
I use 'society' to avoid ambiguity. As in 'societal betterment'. Hasn't the Gov just announced the largest increase in public spending for decades.
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Post by NeilVHughes on Sept 8, 2019 20:53:15 GMT
Interesting development.
Request for an emergency debate tomorrow to force the publication of the Yellowhammer report on the risks of a No-Deal exit.
If true, hope it is the unwatered down version, if publication of the watered down version was pulled as being too scary the original must be a doozy.
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Post by vdcni on Sept 8, 2019 21:07:53 GMT
Which is fascinating given that the Leave campaigns promised we'd be better off outside the EU.
I use 'society' to avoid ambiguity. As in 'societal betterment'. Hasn't the Gov just announced the largest increase in public spending for decades. After years of austerity, a political choice by the Conservatives, it doesn't even get us back to where we were.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 8, 2019 21:56:24 GMT
No definition of Populism suggests personal finaincial circs as a motivating factor. Not ever, in any academic studies. The essence of Populism is cultural. Pretty well everyone assumes the economy will take a hit, it's expected.
Well, it is something which is also the subject of academic study, despite your airy claims. Look at Jan Werner Muller, for example, (professor at Princeton, so ‘academic’) who says that the answer to Trump is to address the economic inequality at the heart of his supporter’s rage. Left populism may be just as undeliverable as right populism but at least they don’t try to deny that it thrives on the economically left behind (just look at who votes for them). Article by Stephane Wolton, an assistant professor at LSE, who I haven’t previously heard of but, you know, academic study.... “Academic papers have found that populist parties attract recent economic losers, who have lost out from globalisation, the Great Recession, automation, or greater economic insecurity. ” etc. www.democraticaudit.com/2019/06/25/the-populists-trap-mainstream-responses-to-populist-new-parties-are-a-threat-to-democracy/As for right populists, they push one thing, which explains the way they can ignore the economic issues. The Big Lie. This consists of the use of culture as a veneer to place over legitimate worries about the class divisions that lead to economic inequality. Hey Presto! At a stroke, all those difficult economic issues suddenly become unimportant and, instead, the cheap fare of culture is blared out as ‘the problem’. Scratch a populist inclined voter and you will, however, generally find the economic anxiety, the concerns about crime and such which arise from it. A noisy media (owned by those who really don’t want their economic hegemony challenged) will blare out about guns, abortion, immigrants, homosexuals, Europe!, etc. etc. and they con people into believing that these are their problems instead. They are not, they really aren’t. They will probably also offer economic incentives (just because, actually we happen to have the money now, not because it was the problem in the first place. No, not at all, honest). Oh. look! Mr Johnson and his amazing socialist level of spending! Colour me shocked....
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Post by Phantom of London on Sept 8, 2019 22:07:32 GMT
Latest rumour, if Johnson will not request an extension or get a Deal as per the No-Deal Bill and become disruptive 14th Oct: A vote of No-Confidence will be called on the Government. 15th/16th Oct: A neutral temporary Prime Minister will be chosen and agreed by Parliament (allegedly the person has been agreed by the Opposition Parties and accepted by the individual) 16th/17th Oct: The neutral Prime Minister will request an Extension and call an Election for late Nov / early Dec and attend the EU Meeting on the 17th/18th. 19th Oct: Parliament closes and the canvassing begins. An intelligent course of actions, if it does not come about, even knowing it exists ratchets the pressure on Johnson, the big question is can the Opposition remain united for this long especially as in the interim there will be Party Conferences which could introduce fracture lines. Continues to show the No-Deal faction (in reality the Government in all but name) appear to always have a contingency to the Johnson/Cumming master plan and the majority request for a snap General Election has been listened to. If made public it will be after Prorogation has commenced and will say that we would like to introduce earlier but cannot as the Government has shut down Parliament until the 14th Oct and this is the earliest we can introduce. I would also like this neutral Prime Minister to call for a new referendum at the same time, unlikely as the Opposition Parties believe they can only get a mandate for this with a General Election and there isn’t consensus on what will be presented on the voting slip. Are you Chukka Ummuna? Deleted the poll in the quote. The scum (shakes head) Okay that poll for a very right wing newspaper, that purports to be for the working man and also part of an organisation that hacks a dead child’s mobile phone, giving their family false hope of survival. It doesn’t really say that the Torres are doing well, not well enough to go to the country with. if you add the Conservative/Brexit party vote is on 43% but Labour/Libs on 44%, then you have to take into account the other parties that make up 10% these are predominately remain.
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Brexit
Sept 9, 2019 12:37:26 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Sept 9, 2019 12:37:26 GMT
Which is fascinating given that the Leave campaigns promised we'd be better off outside the EU.
I use 'society' to avoid ambiguity. As in 'societal betterment'. Hasn't the Gov just announced the largest increase in public spending for decades. Which aside from the fact that austerity makes what is actually a crap increase look good, what they propose may not even be legal - but clearly our current government isn't particularly bothered about obeying the laws it dislikes...
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Post by Someone in a tree on Sept 9, 2019 12:53:07 GMT
Oh dear Boris you are letting your chums vote again on having a general election and yet us plebs aren't allowed a vote on remain, leave with a deal or noel Edmunds. Oh the irony...
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Post by jadnoop on Sept 9, 2019 14:08:28 GMT
But we now get to decide ourselves to inflict economic harm? Which is fascinating given that the Leave campaigns promised we'd be better off outside the EU.
Now, that was obviously a barefaced lie, and the ridiculous claims about hundreds of millions a week extra for the NHS and all the rest of it were widely debunked at the time - but it was a seductive lie, and people bought it. The kind of messy, destructive scenario we're facing now was absolutely not on the table in 2016.
There was an interesting study discussed on Freakonomics a while back, talking about climate change, but I think it applies here too. Basically, they found that, rather than changing ones views in the face of new evidence, people tend to double down or reframe the narrative of their existing opinions. This, I think, explains why after the leave campaigners finally admitted that the £350 million for the NHS might be misleading (for some reason Nigel Farrage and Iain Duncan Smith didn't think to clarify this until after the referendum), rather than using this to reassess the benefits of leaving, the discussion is reframed as never really being about the money anyway. (of course, I'm not suggesting that I'm not liable to have the same sort of psychological response), but it's this sort of double think/cognitive dissonance that really gets me, I mean: - The EU is reliant on us buying German cars (etc.); but we haven’t managed to get a favourable deal in the years of negotiations, - The Irish border isn’t a problem; but mere weeks before the deadline there are no concrete plans in place, - We’re going to (or at least threaten to) renege on what we owe to the EU; but countries will still bend over backwards for a trade deal with us. - Trump has explicitly & implicitly said that he will put American interests first; and yet we’re hanging everything off being able to quickly get a trade deal that suits us, - We need to get out from under the control of the EU to put the power back into Westminster; and yet several of the regions that voted out are precisely the ones that rely on funding from the EU. And it's the same with the way that the Tories have tried to frame the rejected early election. The Tories have been running this race -one that they set in motion- for the last few years. Boris’ argument why he wasn’t ‘contemptible’ (his words) for coming to power without an election was because this is a time of national crisis. And now, after doing everything imaginable to avoid this and literal days before the deadline, he suddenly wants to pass the baton for no other reason than to save face. The idea that this can then be framed as Corbyn being ‘chicken’ is just drinking the Kool Aid to the largest degree.
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Post by kathryn on Sept 9, 2019 14:57:01 GMT
The backstop objections are a particularly baffling bit of cognitive dissonance.
We keep being told that we don't need the 'undemocratic backstop' because we can easily use technology to avoid a hard border. But the backstop only comes into effect - at the end of a 2 year transition period - in the absence of a suitable solution being found to avoid a hard border.
So if it's true that we can easily use technology to avoid a hard border, the backstop will never come into effect, and there's no reason not to vote for the withdrawal agreement.
The argument for it not being necessary is exactly the same as the argument for it not being a deal-breaker.
So what gives? Do they actually not believe what they're saying? Do they actually not understand the implications of what they're saying?
Do they actually just want to throw a spanner in the works to prevent a deal being done and an orderly Brexit?
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Post by sf on Sept 9, 2019 15:45:44 GMT
- We need to get out from under the control of the EU to put the power back into Westminster; and yet several of the regions that voted out are precisely the ones that rely on funding from the EU. And best of all: we need to get out from under the control of the EU to put the power back into Westminster, AND it's perfectly appropriate for a dictatorial Prime Minister who lacks a majority to shut down Parliament in order to sideline MPs during the decision-making process. I've heard that one more than once, and the logical contortions are breathtaking.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 9, 2019 15:49:32 GMT
There’s an interesting report on a conference on political psychology doing the rounds today. A quite salutary read, it refers to what jadnoop and kathryn mention on how democracy starts to fail if cognitive dissonance takes hold. It ranges much wider than that, though. Takeaway points - ”Our brains, says Rosenberg, are proving fatal to modern democracy. Humans just aren’t built for it.” “The irony is that more democracy—ushered in by social media and the Internet, where information flows more freely than ever before—is what has unmoored our politics, and is leading us towards authoritarianism. Rosenberg argues that the elites have traditionally prevented society from becoming a totally unfettered democracy; their “oligarchic ‘democratic’ authority” or “democratic control” has until now kept the authoritarian impulses of the populace in check.” www.politico.com/magazine/story/2019/09/08/shawn-rosenberg-democracy-228045
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Sept 9, 2019 17:29:08 GMT
Post by Phantom of London on Sept 9, 2019 17:29:08 GMT
So with The John Bercow resigning. I wonder who of the former Tory MPs and Change MPs will switch to the Liberal Democrats?
I could see Heidi Allen, Amber Rudd, Ken Clarke and possible Ruth Davidson (that would be a major scalp.)
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Brexit
Sept 9, 2019 18:14:16 GMT
Post by sf on Sept 9, 2019 18:14:16 GMT
So with The John Bercow resigning. I wonder who of the former Tory MPs and Change MPs will switch to the Liberal Democrats? I could see Heidi Allen, Amber Rudd, Ken Clarke and possible Ruth Davidson (that would be a major scalp.)
Clarke has said he's considering voting Lib-Dem in the next election as a protest, but I doubt he'd join the party. For a start, he isn't going to be standing for re-election.
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Post by londonpostie on Sept 9, 2019 18:27:50 GMT
The only place Amber Rudd is positioning for is the Tory leadership. Definition of 'the long game'.
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Brexit
Sept 9, 2019 19:03:03 GMT
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Post by danb on Sept 9, 2019 19:03:03 GMT
The only place Amber Rudd is positioning for is the Tory leadership. Definition of 'the long game'. They are considerably more appealing with a strong woman in charge than a dishonest lily livered greasy chinned public school boy. But still, no ta.
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Brexit
Sept 9, 2019 19:53:19 GMT
Post by theglenbucklaird on Sept 9, 2019 19:53:19 GMT
The only place Amber Rudd is positioning for is the Tory leadership. Definition of 'the long game'. They are considerably more appealing with a strong woman in charge than a dishonest lily livered greasy chinned public school boy. But still, no ta. Pat's right
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Brexit
Sept 9, 2019 20:14:12 GMT
Post by lynette on Sept 9, 2019 20:14:12 GMT
Which Tory party I wonder as I foresee at least two.
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Brexit
Sept 9, 2019 20:28:34 GMT
Post by londonpostie on Sept 9, 2019 20:28:34 GMT
Well, the Tories are two parties on Brexit. A lot of commonality beyond that issue.
Not really the case with Labour's two factions, the split is far more ideological, it's bitter and angry.
However, they all need the party brand name in order to prosper ...
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Brexit
Sept 9, 2019 20:36:06 GMT
Post by lynette on Sept 9, 2019 20:36:06 GMT
Cue new names for political parties. Branding consultants step forward. We got any, mods?
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Post by danb on Sept 9, 2019 20:38:37 GMT
‘Tory but Nice’ ?
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Brexit
Sept 9, 2019 21:18:41 GMT
Post by Deleted on Sept 9, 2019 21:18:41 GMT
Cue new names for political parties. Branding consultants step forward. We got any, mods? They aren't allowed to use names of another party any longer, so can’t include those. So, presuming that both Labour and Conservative stay in the hands of entryists; a centre right conservative party could use the name ‘One Nation’ and it would have some resonance and a Centre left party might be helped by using the term Progressive, either on its own or together with another term. The irony is that Labour has sidelined the ‘worker’s’ part of its heritage and the Conservative and Unionist Party is now neither Conservative nor Unionist. Accurate new names for those are needed too.
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Post by d'James on Sept 10, 2019 7:12:22 GMT
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