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Post by Michael on Jun 24, 2016 17:43:00 GMT
This is the exact thing that worries a lot of people who voted Remain - that UKIP have fooled people into believing leaving the EU would reduce immigration and increase public spending, and that when people realise you can't actually have both of those things that their anger will not be directed at the politicians who lied to them, but the people who they were lying about. But that's exactly what experts predicted before the referendum. To sell British products in the common market, the UK will still have to abide by all the 'stupid' EU laws and regulations. And the common market doesn't come without free movement of labour. So the UK can claim that they've left the EU, but still has to follow all the rules, pay a fee and allow free movement of labour. So pretty much the same as before, but with no say at all. And that's just the best case.
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4,038 posts
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Brexit
Jun 24, 2016 18:01:54 GMT
via mobile
Post by kathryn on Jun 24, 2016 18:01:54 GMT
Yes, except our economy will suffer, so we will end up with less money for public services and increased austerity. And the country will still be 'full up' and we'll still have 'immigrants stealing our jobs'.
Not to mention the huge amount for money we're going to have to waste over the next couple of years to negotiate our way to a deal as good as that. It's not going to be cheap to administer the change.
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Post by ncbears on Jun 24, 2016 18:16:15 GMT
I'm just worried that the National Theatre is about to announce "Brexit" the new play by Richard Bean, which has been secretly rehearsing for weeks.
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Post by The Matthew on Jun 24, 2016 18:22:12 GMT
There have already been scenes of Boris Johnson being bundled into a car surrounded by police to protect him from angry crowds. I wonder how much more anger is going to surface as people realise that many of the Leave campaigns promises were deliberate lies.
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Brexit
Jun 24, 2016 20:01:31 GMT
Post by Hamilton Addict on Jun 24, 2016 20:01:31 GMT
Created an little something on PowerPoint, which was originally funny to me, until I forgot they all have access to nuclear bombs.
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Post by Phantom of London on Jun 24, 2016 21:09:29 GMT
Long may the king live and Boris isn't automatically heir to the throne.
I think a lot of grass root Tories and some of those wanted to stay, also the ones who wanted out, aren't impressed how Johnson betrayed David Cameron and switched allegiance at the last moment, when he realised where his milk and honey lays. He didn't stab David in the back he stabbed him in the front.
Would you really want someone as your Prime Minister who messes up their hair before doing an television interviews?
Not saying he won't run, but there is a chance that the next Prime Minister maybe a woman and Scottish.
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Post by theglenbucklaird on Jun 24, 2016 21:13:01 GMT
Am I missing something with the thread title? Jo Cox was supporting Brexit?
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Brexit
Jun 24, 2016 21:27:37 GMT
Post by BurlyBeaR on Jun 24, 2016 21:27:37 GMT
I removed that from the title. We were redirecting a discussion from the Jo Cox thread. Thanks, BB.
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Brexit
Jun 24, 2016 22:10:22 GMT
Post by Deleted on Jun 24, 2016 22:10:22 GMT
What does his mean for the theatre world? Will box office decrease or has this got nothing to do so it?
Pure curiosity
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4,631 posts
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Brexit
Jun 24, 2016 22:16:39 GMT
Post by Phantom of London on Jun 24, 2016 22:16:39 GMT
If the pound is weak, then it would mean tourists comes here, so in theory it could be a good thing for theatre.
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Post by DuchessConstance on Jun 25, 2016 0:56:46 GMT
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Brexit
Jun 25, 2016 5:20:06 GMT
Post by The Matthew on Jun 25, 2016 5:20:06 GMT
What does his mean for the theatre world? Will box office decrease or has this got nothing to do so it? I expect regional theatre will be hit very hard. Prices are going to rise, interest rates are going to fall, and in those conditions people stop spending money. Apart from businesses that depend mainly on foreign tourism, every business that deals directly with the public is going to suffer and the ones that deal in luxuries are going to suffer the most. Anyone know Nigel Farage's address? I feel like sending him a black shirt. Also, Boris Johnson doesn't look happy.
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Brexit
Jun 25, 2016 8:50:50 GMT
via mobile
Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2016 8:50:50 GMT
So English theatre should still be alright in the coming years then?
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Brexit
Jun 25, 2016 9:47:53 GMT
Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2016 9:47:53 GMT
Theatre will always exist, theatre will never die, but it will change and adapt according to circumstance. I wouldn't be surprised if there were plenty of revivals of old feel-good shows, but there'll probably be a decent undercurrent of small shows of anger and fear, almost exclusively on the fringe. Could be interesting to see which Shakespeare plays gain most traction over the next period as well, apart from the ones that were already announced pre-refererendum. It feels like we're entering a very Richard II kind of era, except most theatres now seem to have done that one recently. Maybe a few more Coriolanuses and Julius Caesars?
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Post by DuchessConstance on Jun 25, 2016 9:48:35 GMT
English theatre won't collapse entirely or anything dramatic, but it will be negatively affected. People who work in theatre will feel it more than audiences.
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Brexit
Jun 25, 2016 9:56:18 GMT
Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2016 9:56:18 GMT
English theatre won't collapse entirely or anything dramatic, but it will be negatively affected. People who work in theatre will feel it more than audiences. How do you mean?
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Brexit
Jun 25, 2016 9:58:33 GMT
Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2016 9:58:33 GMT
You'll always have shows to go and see. They won't have as many possible shows to be in, or they won't be paid as much. For a start.
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Post by DuchessConstance on Jun 25, 2016 10:05:00 GMT
Many theatres and festivals dependent on EU funding will struggle to find funding. There will be less new writing, and new talent will find it harder to find opportunities to develop their careers.
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Brexit
Jun 25, 2016 17:22:40 GMT
Post by lynette on Jun 25, 2016 17:22:40 GMT
Many theatres and festivals dependent on EU funding will struggle to find funding. There will be less new writing, and new talent will find it harder to find opportunities to develop their careers. Does anyone know or know,where to look to see the theatres or theatrical/arts festivals funded by the EU and by how much?
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Brexit
Jun 25, 2016 17:37:42 GMT
Post by Honoured Guest on Jun 25, 2016 17:37:42 GMT
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4,799 posts
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Brexit
Jun 25, 2016 18:03:46 GMT
Post by The Matthew on Jun 25, 2016 18:03:46 GMT
Does anyone know or know,where to look to see the theatres or theatrical/arts festivals funded by the EU and by how much? I've had a quick search around and all I can find are mentions of individual projects such as a €199,920 (why not another €80?) grant for audio description in Wolverhampton or a €5m grant to help 38 unspecified arts organisations. It might be impossible to get a comprehensive list because organisations can get grants through many different channels, including direct applications. I tried checking with the Treasury to see if they have figures but the only figures I could find were totals for the public and private sectors, not breakdowns.
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Xanderl
Member
Not always very high value in terms of ticket yield or donations
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Post by Xanderl on Jun 25, 2016 21:32:49 GMT
So today I saw play by a French playwright and an opera by a Czech composer, surrounded by a highly enthused audience bit of course we are all part of the metropolitan elite
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Post by Cardinal Pirelli on Jun 25, 2016 23:16:57 GMT
The only text we have in Shakespeare's hand, yet so relevant to our position some hundreds of years later. How well he knew us, even though he could never have imagined so.
From Sir Thomas More
"Imagine that you see the wretched strangers, Their babies at their backs and their poor luggage, Plodding to the ports and coasts for transportation, And that you sit as kings in your desires, Authority quite silent by your brawl, And you in ruff of your opinions clothed; What had you got? I’ll tell you: you had taught How insolence and strong hand should prevail, How order should be quelled; and by this pattern Not one of you should live an aged man, For other ruffians, as their fancies wrought, With self same hand, self reasons, and self right, Would shark on you, and men like ravenous fishes Would feed on one another….
....You’ll put down strangers Kill them, cut their throats, possess their houses, And lead the majesty of law in line, To slip him like a hound. Say now the king Should so much come too short of your great trespass As but to banish you, whether would you go? What country, by the nature of your error, Should give you harbour? go you to France or Flanders, To any German province, to Spain or Portugal, Nay, any where that not adheres to England, Why, you must needs be strangers: would you be pleased To find a nation of such barbarous temper, That, breaking out in hideous violence, Would not afford you an abode on earth, Whet their detested knives against your throats, Spurn you like dogs, and like as if that God Owed not nor made not you, nor that the claimants Were not all appropriate to your comforts, But chartered unto them, what would you think To be thus used? this is the strangers case; And this your mountainish inhumanity."
Try saying it, a stream of words with barely time to pause.
He was angry when he wrote this, no doubt.
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Post by Steve on Jun 25, 2016 23:40:55 GMT
I had an emergency visit with the dentist on Tuesday, and he was eager to canvas my vote for Brexit. At least, I gathered that when, drill in hand, he said those famous words: "If we weren't in the EU, would we join now?" I was scared, cos I didn't want a man with anesthetic and a drill to know I was in political disagreement with him. So I obfuscated, and said "It'll be a close vote, down to the wire I think." He then proceeded to tell me about his suction machine, which he raged had once had a squirt gun attached, making it a dual use device. Suck out the yuck, spray in the antiseptic water, rinse and spit. But he said, the EU had banned the device, cos they said the bacteria from the sucking could go down the spray nozzle, and he fumed, the bacteria would then chase it's way down the device and back into the water supply, and my mouth would poison the whole of the London water supply. This made eminent sense to me, but the dentist was so angry about it that I said instead: "So what the EU is saying is that a bacteria from my mouth will charge into your nozzle, and like Tom Cruise from "Mission Impossible," accept it's mission to infect the whole country!?" "Yes, that's exactly it!" he exclaimed, infuriated. I started humming the Mission Impossible theme to rile him up some more, and thankfully, he got the joke and laughed. We both shook our heads at all the "EU craziness," after which I visited the polls on Thursday to vote for Remain, vigilant about our water supply. Anyway, this incident confirms Theatremonkey's point that not all Brexit voters were Little Englanders terrified of the foreign "other." Some just want double-nozzle suck-and-squirt guns.
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Post by Coated on Jun 26, 2016 0:28:40 GMT
Sounds familiar, we have a guy at work who voted leave because the EU might outlaw vaping.
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4,631 posts
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Brexit
Jun 26, 2016 1:31:10 GMT
Post by Phantom of London on Jun 26, 2016 1:31:10 GMT
I had an emergency visit with the dentist on Tuesday, and he was eager to canvas my vote for Brexit. At least, I gathered that when, drill in hand, he said those famous words: "If we weren't in the EU, would we join now?" I was scared, cos I didn't want a man with anesthetic and a drill to know I was in political disagreement with him. So I obfuscated, and said "It'll be a close vote, down to the wire I think." He then proceeded to tell me about his suction machine, which he raged had once had a squirt gun attached, making it a dual use device. Suck out the yuck, spray in the antiseptic water, rinse and spit. But he said, the EU had banned the device, cos they said the bacteria from the sucking could go down the spray nozzle, and he fumed, the bacteria would then chase it's way down the device and back into the water supply, and my mouth would poison the whole of the London water supply. This made eminent sense to me, but the dentist was so angry about it that I said instead: "So what the EU is saying is that a bacteria from my mouth will charge into your nozzle, and like Tom Cruise from "Mission Impossible," accept it's mission to infect the whole country!?" "Yes, that's exactly it!" he exclaimed, infuriated. I started humming the Mission Impossible theme to rile him up some more, and thankfully, he got the joke and laughed. We both shook our heads at all the "EU craziness," after which I visited the polls on Thursday to vote for Remain, vigilant about our water supply. Anyway, this incident confirms Theatremonkey's point that not all Brexit voters were Little Englanders terrified of the foreign "other." Some just want double-nozzle suck-and-squirt guns. In the end the Brexit supporters would believe anything if it suited there philosophy, fro example if they got told that the EU has instructed that all peodophiles are to released from jail, as it is a violation of their human rights being locked they would of believed it. this is the danger when you all peasants into the polling booth.
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Post by Nicholas on Jun 26, 2016 2:25:26 GMT
I feel angry. You should too. I hope I’m not ruining this wonderful reasoned debate, but I really need to get this off my chest, and if this ends up too long (of course), too angry, too one-sided, too vitriolic, I don’t apologise, actually, I feel that after the last three months this needs to be said (albeit by someone smarter, more articulate, more informed and more influential than I – I apologise for my lack of political nous, but not my lack of moderation in my anger). This is no longer a Brexit issue, it’s not a Leave or Remain issue. It’s an issue about how ugly the country’s politics, press and rhetoric have gotten, how insincere and untruthful it is, and how dangerous that is.
I voted Remain, but I spent weeks contemplating Leave, waiting until I was fully confident in my decision before going to the ballot box. Had we left because, as Theatremonkey states, the EU is no longer a simple system of trading partners and hopefully we’ll return to the EEC, great! Had we left because, as Matthew states, so much of EU policy is common sense we can implement outside, great! Had we left because, as Steve’s dentist states, EU regulations place sometimes ludicrous limitations on sometimes reasonable technology and developments, great!
But did we? We’ve left because Boris wanted to lose but write on his Prime Ministerial CV: “Good enough public speaker to almost win an unwinnable campaign”. We’ve left because Cameron wanted to keep the coalition going, over-won that bet, then proved so hateful a figure that, for many people, this was a referendum on whether we like Cameron or not, and blimey do people not like Cameron. We’ve left because xenophobic politicians blamed immigrants for the crushed economic situation of the working class, and good and decent non-xenophobic people believed them.
I can believe anyone here who voted Leave did so after a considered appreciation of the facts, an understanding of the economics, and personal experience dealing with issues, but I can’t believe 52% of voters did so. Headlines of mistruth with back-page corrections. Months of glorious promises broken the morning after. Expertise mocked and anti-intellectualism encouraged by Eton/Oxbridge graduates. THAT won the election. The campaign was twisted, manipulated, scapegoating and dangerous; my anger is not at Friday morning’s result but at Friday morning’s inevitable broken promises and multiple instabilities. I’m angry at the headline-makers, the promise-breakers, the Oxbridge graduates clambering over Cameron’s corpse to get to the throne. Leave or Remain, you should be too.
So we have to get angry, and I speak not to embittered Remainers but the lot of you. Don’t get angry at ‘old people’. Don’t get angry at ‘xenophobes’. Don’t get angry at all ‘Leavers’. I’ve read articles blaming all of those, wrongly. It’s the source. Bad reasons swayed good people. We must not blame good people. We must hate the bad reasons. We have to get angry at the politicians who flat-out lied to procure a victory, and the press with their own agendas. Leavers and Remainers all have to get angry at the Sun and the Mail and the headlines of lies, and at UKIP and at those buses, those posters and those lies.
So the conclusion I’m trying to limp towards is that the lot of us, Leave and Remain, must be angry not at the result, but at how it was gotten. But this anger has an outlet: Murdoch and Letts and Farage and Johnson – anyone who publishes lies in their papers, anyone who promises lies in their policies, and our country which lets this run unregulated. I don’t know how we demand it, but we must demand a moderated, regulated press, and reasonable, honest politics – in law – before the next general election, otherwise the way the rhetoric is going, we’ll be in an ugly, untruthful place and the consequences, well, turn to history and it’s not hyperbolic to worry about you-know-what.
We need press regulations. We need political regulations. We need campaign lies to be illegal. We need national newspapers to be truthful. How we do this, I don’t know, but given the way this campaign made extremists of us all, has affected futures for present leadership, and pushed people to breaking point and people broke, we can’t have this happen again. However you voted, you have to demand this, and we have to demand this now.
P.S. On the news last night, a man was weeping with joy as he heard the result. “I’m 80, I won’t live long to see it, but I’ve finally got my country back”. Many people my age feel angry at him, an older voter cutting off possibilities for younger Remainers for tenuous reasons. And I was angry. Not angry at him. I felt sorry for him. I felt angry at the people who told him his country, our country, was gone, and who convinced him this was taking it back. If I believed the country I’d fought for belonged to Brussels, the NHS I rely on is being bled dry by the EU, and the jobs and houses my children and grandchildren relied on were taken away by immigrants, there’s only one way to vote. But now he’s got his country back – but he doesn’t. The promises made to him are proven untrue, he’s got no more influence today than he ever had, and the only person possibly with ‘his country’ back is Boris at best. I felt angry not because an 80-year-old man has placed restrictions on my 20-year-old life, but because an 80-year-old man did so out of passion misplaced and manipulated. I didn’t feel angry at him, I felt angry for him, angry on his behalf, sorry for him, and it’s that anger I feel everyone here – smart, well-read, politically conscious people, be you Leave or Remain – needs to feel. He was lied to. He must feel betrayed. He wasted his vote. We can’t let that happen again. We need to control these campaigns.
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Post by The Matthew on Jun 26, 2016 5:52:06 GMT
But he said, the EU had banned the device, cos they said the bacteria from the sucking could go down the spray nozzle, and he fumed, the bacteria would then chase it's way down the device and back into the water supply, and my mouth would poison the whole of the London water supply. A quick bit of searching turns up an installation manual for a dental pump, and that suggests the reason is actually because the waste from the suction is loaded with mercury and copper from metal fillings and must be treated as hazardous waste in order to keep the heavy metals out of the water supply, with strict rules covering filtration and disposal. There's a reason behind the directive, and it wouldn't have been created unless it was solving a real problem that actually exists. (I found a reference to a US county that reduced mercury contamination of its water by 50% by keeping dental waste separate, so it's not a minor issue.) (Edited to add...) In response to the inevitable question of why the EU has to impose regulations like this instead of leaving it up to individual countries, the answer is that it makes things much easier for manufacturers. Instead of having to get their product certified against two dozen separate standards they only have to get it certified against one, and given how time consuming the process can be that can have a substantial influence on the price of the final product.
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Post by n1david on Jun 26, 2016 7:32:57 GMT
I feel angry. You should too. I hope I’m not ruining this wonderful reasoned debate, but I really need to get this off my chest, and if this ends up too long (of course), too angry, too one-sided, too vitriolic, I don’t apologise, actually, I feel that after the last three months this needs to be said (albeit by someone smarter, more articulate, more informed and more influential than I – I apologise for my lack of political nous, but not my lack of moderation in my anger). This is no longer a Brexit issue, it’s not a Leave or Remain issue. It’s an issue about how ugly the country’s politics, press and rhetoric have gotten, how insincere and untruthful it is, and how dangerous that is. Nicholas, I couldn't have written this better myself. I have friends who did their own research, read academic papers, looked into constitutional matters, and chose to vote Leave. I have no argument with them. Last night on Newsnight there was a woman from Boston furious about how immigrants take all the jobs, take all the houses and spend all the NHS money. I have profound disagreements with this perspective, but in a way I can't blame her for it, because this is what politicians have been telling her for months and years, and it legitimises the language and the attitude. There wasn't a proper debate this time round (and there were people on the Remain side using questionable "facts" as well I know) - and if we don't improve the level of political discourse in this country, you end up in a state where someone like Trump becomes electable.
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Post by horton on Jun 26, 2016 7:51:05 GMT
My friends who still tour internationally are well and truly screwed. They will need visas wherever they go in Europe- you can only apply for 2 at a time and the bureaucracy can't keep up with the applications (which are now bound to increase); so this means sound engineers, lighting designers and most people who work in technical theatre, will lose jobs. European workers will get the work because they are able to travel more freely. British theatre workers will be sidelined.
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