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Post by sf on Dec 10, 2018 23:02:53 GMT
I doubt she’s trying to sabotage it. I’m a Labour Remainer but - like May - recognise that the majority want to leave and as a believer in democracy accept the result.
I would agree with that - IF the referendum campaigns had been fought within the law. They were not, or rather one of them was not, and the evidence suggests rather strongly that the wrongdoings extend beyond what has already been uncovered. That given, as someone who absolutely respects democracy, I cannot respect this farce.
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Brexit
Dec 10, 2018 23:23:21 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2018 23:23:21 GMT
I doubt she’s trying to sabotage it. I’m a Labour Remainer but - like May - recognise that the majority want to leave and as a believer in democracy accept the result.
I would agree with that - IF the referendum campaigns had been fought within the law. They were not, or rather one of them was not, and the evidence suggests rather strongly that the wrongdoings extend beyond what has already been uncovered. That given, as someone who absolutely respects democracy, I cannot respect this farce.
I understand your point, but it’s basically saying people were brainwashed into making their decision and as a result their free will was removed. The amount of people involved makes that assumption impossible. Ultimately we were all given the ability to research Brexit and make our own choice as to how to use our vote. We all know politicians lie. We all know campaign promises are a lie. We know not to trust the information we’re given. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2018 23:27:30 GMT
The majority of the people who voted = about a third of the electorate = about a quarter of the population of the country. It was scarcely a majority of the people who voted, let alone an *actual* majority. And I'm with kathryn - you can have empathy for the fact that May's in a really horrific position, but you can have that empathy while also acknowledging that it's a problem largely of her own making at this point and she almost certainly deserves it too. |
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Brexit
Dec 10, 2018 23:27:48 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2018 23:27:48 GMT
People may not have liked Mrs Thatcher but I'd have backed her to get a better deal than Theresa May. Theresa's biggest mistake was calling an election last year and losing her majority, the Tory party haven't forgotten about that. There could well be a split in both major parties or a new centralist party created. I just hope the unpleasant very hard left and right wing extremists don't gain mass support. Maggie has chance to have thrown her handbag at them and said ‘No Deal’ to the lot of them. I agree the election last year was a huge mistake, but it was also a huge reality check - and she kept the top job. The fact she keeps her job every time we perceive something to be a reason why she shouldn’t, suggests a hell of a lot is going on behind closed doors. I’m not a Tory supporter but I find May somewhat refreshing to the media politicians we’ve had, like David Cameron and Tony Blair. May seemingly just gets on with the task at hand and that makes her a little harder to read imo. |
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Brexit
Dec 10, 2018 23:29:29 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2018 23:29:29 GMT
The majority of the people who voted = about a third of the electorate = about a quarter of the population of the country. It was scarcely a majority of the people who voted, let alone an *actual* majority. Well by that logic you could argue the majority of people didn’t care whether remained or stayed, which actually, I think is fairly accurate! |
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Brexit
Dec 10, 2018 23:32:26 GMT
Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2018 23:32:26 GMT
The majority of the people who voted = about a third of the electorate = about a quarter of the population of the country. It was scarcely a majority of the people who voted, let alone an *actual* majority. Well by that logic you could argue the majority of people didn’t care whether remained or stayed, which actually, I think is fairly accurate! Sure, you absolutely could do that. Doesn't change the fact our government wants to shut down international borders and plunge the country into economic uncertainty while telling us it's the will of the people when it's only the will of 27% of the people at best, which is disingenuous in the extreme. Also don't forget that just because people aren't on the electoral roll doesn't mean they don't care, in a lot of cases it just means they're, for example, too young to vote. |
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Brexit
Dec 10, 2018 23:34:15 GMT
Post by sf on Dec 10, 2018 23:34:15 GMT
I would agree with that - IF the referendum campaigns had been fought within the law. They were not, or rather one of them was not, and the evidence suggests rather strongly that the wrongdoings extend beyond what has already been uncovered. That given, as someone who absolutely respects democracy, I cannot respect this farce.
I understand your point, but it’s basically saying people were brainwashed into making their decision and as a result their free will was removed. The amount of people involved makes that assumption impossible. Ultimately we were all given the ability to research Brexit and make our own choice as to how to use our vote. We all know politicians lie. We all know campaign promises are a lie. We know not to trust the information we’re given.
Not quite the point. In the constituency where I vote, one candidate in the 2010 general election was found afterwards to have broken the rules in one piece of campaign literature. As a result, his party withdrew the whip, the result was thrown out, and we had a by-election, and the by-election was watched very closely indeed to make sure nobody crossed the line.
If we're going to apply that level of rigour to one kind of vote - to a vote whose result can be undone after a maxiumum of five years - but not to a vote on something we may have to live with for the rest of my working life and which might potentially significantly restrict where our citizenship entitles us to live, then democracy in this country is broken.
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Brexit
Dec 10, 2018 23:45:09 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2018 23:45:09 GMT
Well by that logic you could argue the majority of people didn’t care whether remained or stayed, which actually, I think is fairly accurate! Sure, you absolutely could do that. Doesn't change the fact our government wants to shut down international borders and plunge the country into economic uncertainty while telling us it's the will of the people when it's only the will of 27% of the people at best, which is disingenuous in the extreme. Also don't forget that just because people aren't on the electoral roll doesn't mean they don't care, in a lot of cases it just means they're, for example, too young to vote. Everyone who had the right to vote was allowed to vote. Brexit is the will of the people, in the same way we accept that a government wins a majority even if only 25% of people turn out to vote. The people who didn’t vote can’t start moaning about the outcome if they chose not to participate in it. I really don’t get your point. Are the government supposed to be saying “well 27% of you voted to leave, so we’re going to do it”? Or should they be saying “well over half of you didn’t bother to vote so stop moaning?” |
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Brexit
Dec 10, 2018 23:53:59 GMT
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Post by n1david on Dec 10, 2018 23:53:59 GMT
Well there is an argument that the government is elected to protect and support ALL citizens, including those that are not able to vote - like young people or those who are too sick to vote - and yes, those that choose not to vote. They may choose not to vote because they don't care, or because they don't feel that they understand the issues, or because they don't think their vote counts.
It would be completely inappropriate for a Government to ignore people who didn't vote or to enact policies which only support their voters.
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Post by Backdrifter on Dec 11, 2018 0:20:42 GMT
the government is elected to protect and support ALL citizens, including those that are not able to vote - like young people or those who are too sick to vote - and yes, those that choose not to vote. Yes, and those who will be especially significantly affected by the manner of brexiting but were excluded, such as UK-based EU citizens and vice versa. |
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Brexit
Dec 11, 2018 0:39:30 GMT
Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2018 0:39:30 GMT
Each party elected to government will likely favour their own or more cynically have tried to have done enough to appeal to those swing voters who may be more right leaning labour voters or left/moderate tories. Also all those people who voted Lib Dem up to 2015 and the surge Farage got in that election are there to be won.
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Brexit
Dec 11, 2018 7:24:30 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2018 7:24:30 GMT
... I’m a Labour Remainer but - like May - recognise that the majority want to leave and as a believer in democracy accept the result... My problem is that I find it hard to accept that 51% is a majority in such a crucial, life changing, economy affecting vote. I guess it depends on perspective, n all that, but to me that glass below is not mostly full - nor mostly empty. The fluid is not filling the majority of the glass nor is the majority of the glass empty. And I contest the 'majority' argument furthermore when there is a stark evidence that the ~650,000 people who swung the vote were potentially subject to illegal propaganda from the Leave campaign, ultimately changing the voting decision of ~800,000 people.  |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2018 8:19:54 GMT
... I’m a Labour Remainer but - like May - recognise that the majority want to leave and as a believer in democracy accept the result... My problem is that I find it hard to accept that 51% is a majority in such a crucial, life changing, economy affecting vote. Not only that, but it was 51% at a point several years ago where opinions were based largely on propaganda and very little understanding of what was actually involved, not least of all because several of the anti-EU tabloids were going out of their way to rely on sound bites rather than in-depth analysis. Opinions have changed since then, and many of the older voters who were firmly anti-EU have now died while younger people who have a more global perspective are now able to vote.
People keep on going on about respecting the democratic process, but can you imagine if general elections were run on the basis of each person getting exactly one vote in their life, and if they change their mind about how they cast it or if the situation changes then they just have to suck it up?
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Post by Backdrifter on Dec 11, 2018 11:16:09 GMT
I join with those who find it hard to stomach talk of 'will of the people' and the sanctity of democracy. We know there was illegal activity and underhanded practices involved in the Leave campaign. Brexiters who in one breath berate Remainers for being undemocratic will later in the same breath tell us to shut up and accuse us of being "traitors" and not respecting democracy for questioning or challenging the process of leaving. We have a PM who didn't even want to respect our own parliamentary sovereignty and had to be forced to do so by legal action. We then had already toxic media sinking to new lows by branding independent judiciary as 'enemies of the people' for simply doing their job. The mindset of too many of those claiming to respect democracy was revealed by their death, rape and beheading threats to the woman bringing the legal action, as well as one person offering £5000 to anyone who ran her over. These people are among those who said part of their reason for voting leave was to "reclaim" our sovereignty, and this was their reaction to someone acting to ensure it was preserved.
As I mentioned above, millions of people who will be possibly the most directly and materially affected by the referendum result couldn't vote. Their being put into an extended limbo for over 2 years, during which they have had to worry and agonise over what will happen to them, their jobs, their families and homes, is for me possibly the most disgraceful aspect of an already elongated apoca-sh*tfest.
All the above, plus the rest of the river of political ordure we're currently riding, thanks the government holding to its ill-advised commitment to enact the narrowly-won result of a deeply flawed advisory referendum. And we mustn't question it, because democracy is apparently a completely one-off event that occurred in June 2016 and can never be revisited, reconsidered or re-evaluated, ever.
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Post by talkingheads on Dec 11, 2018 11:20:18 GMT
There is so much talk about Brexit I find it hard to follow. My own view is how on Earth can we take the referendum result as red when nobody, not least the politicians let alone the general public, had any idea what they were voting for, in terms of the fallout and what would happen to the country, which even now everybody is guessing. Surely a deal and its terms laid out in clear English should have been negotiated well before any referendum on whether they were acceptable?
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Brexit
Dec 11, 2018 12:48:46 GMT
Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2018 12:48:46 GMT
I honestly felt that the Remainers wheeled out all the possible Big Guns in the campaign and did everything to try and get the result they wanted, that was much more of an establishment movement than the Leavers. I think people honestly got a bit fed up of the remainers and probably had a protest vote but more protested than they thought.
No real provision had been made for a leave vote. I think the government ( in the wider sense ) were expecting a result similar to the 2014 Scottish referendum where the Leavers got 44.7% of the vote or something similar. Then Farage and co could have said they gave it a big go against the government machine but not close enough to demand another go.
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Post by Backdrifter on Dec 11, 2018 13:12:18 GMT
I honestly felt that the Remainers wheeled out all the possible Big Guns in the campaign and did everything to try and get the result they wanted, that was much more of an establishment movement than the Leavers. I think people honestly got a bit fed up of the remainers and probably had a protest vote but more protested than they thought. No real provision had been made for a leave vote. I think the government ( in the wider sense ) were expecting a result similar to the 2014 Scottish referendum where the Leavers got 44.7% of the vote or something similar. Then Farage and co could have said they gave it a big go against the government machine but not close enough to demand another go. I think in fact the Remain campaign was quite poor. While it had government backing and resourcing, it didn't strive for enough substance; it had big guns, but it actually didn't wheel them out, it kept them in storage. I agree there was an assumption and complacency about the result on Cameron's part. Everything about the reasoning for it was wrong - the EU was not a principal concern among the wider electorate and never ranked high as an issue in various polls; Cameron wanted to claw back voters lost to UKIP or prevent waverers from defecting, he had no real genuine concern about their view of the EU beyond how it might affect his standing and how many votes there might be in it. Indeed, as you say, absolutely no provision was made for the possibility of a Leave result. The entire Whitehall machine had to start from scratch after the referendum. In some ways, it probably still is. You are also right that a probably quite significant proportion of the Leave vote came from people in neglected areas feeling overlooked and ignored, a feeling which polarised into a desire to give the establishment a kicking, and the establishment seemed pro-EU so let's show them what we think. Re Farage, bear in mind he said that a 52-48 pro-Remain result would be 'unfinished business' (a phrase which hasn't passed his lips since). It's probably just about the only thing I'd agree with him on. If that had been the outcome, I'd have been pleased but also concerned at the level of discontent with the status quo, and I don't think it could have simply been left like that. I admit I'm not sure exactly what should have been done then, but I'd have been uncomfortable with nothing being done. It's a pity more brexiters don't think the same way about the actual outcome. |
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Brexit
Dec 11, 2018 13:51:21 GMT
Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2018 13:51:21 GMT
Cameron had said he would stand down in about 2018 so he just went early after Brexit and left others to pick up the mess!
The sort of big guns who needed to be wheeled out were the Party Leaders in unison plus a few respected Grandees
I think one wheel out featured John Major and Neil Kinnock both of whom were thoroughly rejected at the last election they lead their Parties into! Would people listen to them. Certainly Blair was a relevant person to speak up and say pro Euro Tory Grandee Ken Clarke etc.
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Brexit
Dec 11, 2018 15:15:12 GMT
Post by lynette on Dec 11, 2018 15:15:12 GMT
Matthew, I won’t thank you for killing off the older voters... the demographic changes the day after any vote. Sadly not much clarity or 'education' has gone on since the R so the younger voters are probably not much the wiser. And many older voters voted Remain for example in my area. The Corbynistas should look closely at the Labour demographic to understand why he has been less than transparent about his views. My main concern is that the whole shambles has brought parliamentary representational democracy into disrepute. A referendum has never been part of that version of democracy and is by its very nature divisive. Luckily it went the way most of 'us' felt was ok in the Irish gay marriage Ref but if it had not, then would the Irish government have insisted on the status quo? At the risk of not being elected further? Referenda (?) are daft at best and lethal at worst. Cameron should have known that but he didn’t know the basics, that you should never, ever ask a question that you don’t know the answer to for sure ( or are not prepared to act on ) . Ask any parent with young children. You don’t ask if they want to go to bed or not, you ask if they would like five or ten minutes more downstairs. I’m afraid that it is General Elections that allow for democracy and the nuances therein, not Refs. But interestingly, now we are moving in the U.K. towards a multi party parliament with deals across parties. The two party system is dead, another outcome of the Ref and possibly not a bad one. I’m not for proportional representation as it allows the bad 'uns in as it would have meant more UKIP members for example and we can see similar happening in Germany. But I can see how people do feel not represented in our current system.
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Post by sf on Dec 11, 2018 17:07:37 GMT
I’m not for proportional representation as it allows the bad 'uns in as it would have meant more UKIP members for example and we can see similar happening in Germany. But I can see how people do feel not represented in our current system. UKIP would arguably have had less influence under a proportional voting system which gave them 20-30 seats in the Commons than they had when the two largest parties were both tying themselves into knots chasing the UKIP vote. Yes, they'd have had 20-30 seats in Parliament, but they wouldn't have been able to make the tail wag the dog the way they did in the run up to the referendum, and under a system in which every government depends on coalition and therefore compromise, nobody's policies are delivered undiluted (the Lib-Dems have been unfairly punished for this in the last two elections for not delivering manifesto promises that were never, ever going to be deliverable from the junior partners in a coalition). The winner-takes-all mentality in UK politics has a lot to answer for. It's what has created the mess we're in now. A 4% margin is not a mandate for a policy change that strips rights away from every single UK citizen. |
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Post by sf on Dec 11, 2018 17:18:38 GMT
I honestly felt that the Remainers wheeled out all the possible Big Guns in the campaign and did everything to try and get the result they wanted, that was much more of an establishment movement than the Leavers. I think people honestly got a bit fed up of the remainers and probably had a protest vote but more protested than they thought. That's true. It's also fair to say that the woefully incompetent Remain campaign never attempted to gain control of the narrative in terms of patriotism and identity. They never managed to communicate what many of us feel: that is is perfectly possible, and in no way contradictory, to identify as (in no particular order) English/Welsh/Scottish/Northern Irish and British and European, and that to identify as European as well as British does not mean you are somehow less patriotic. That was a major failure, not least because it left the door open for the Leave campaign's appalling brand of small-minded nationalism. |
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Brexit
Dec 11, 2018 18:29:16 GMT
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Post by northernhomo on Dec 11, 2018 18:29:16 GMT
Is it me or has Mrs May been watching too much of Evita recently? This EU Tour is nothing more than a stalling tactic to stop Corbyn overthrowing her.
I think everyone remembers how Evita ended...
Not very well
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Brexit
Dec 12, 2018 7:49:29 GMT
Post by Michael on Dec 12, 2018 7:49:29 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Dec 12, 2018 8:21:52 GMT
Oh here we go. It’s no surprise, but I feel bad for May - no one wants to move house this close to Christmas.
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Post by Someone in a tree on Dec 12, 2018 8:33:08 GMT
Im sure she could stay at one of 100’s of homelss hostels this government has generously provided
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