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Post by profquatermass on May 29, 2023 6:18:25 GMT
The white male privilege in this thread is almost tangible. LOL. Literally, no one gives a sh1t about one group's particular pigmentation. It's like being the only gay in the village where no one cares.
Desperate, desperate stuff. As an action, it's up there with screaming at police 'Defund the police!' and 'Hands up, don't shoot!' - like they learned off the internet - in regional town like ... Brighton and Oxford. While everyone else is walking past carrying their bags home from Lidl and Primark looking confused. The full Little Britain.
Always fascinating to see the total confidence that of so many white people that racism doesn't exist and colour doesn't matter. Then see the reaction to a dark-skinned Anna being cast alongside a white-skinned Elsa...
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Post by talkingheads on May 29, 2023 13:30:41 GMT
Just imagine if this were the other way around! Yes but it isn't though is it? It is very specifically a play from a black person's perspective. I honestly don't see why people are so angry. Nobody is being excluded, anybody can come if they want to, white people are just politely being told that one performance out of many is for a black audience. If we were talking about actual discrimination and tickets not being sold to a certain demographic, then there would quite rightly be huge controversy. But this is just right wing faux outrange over a non issue.
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Post by oxfordsimon on May 29, 2023 13:49:42 GMT
I haven't seen anyone posting on here from a position of anger. Scepticism isn't anger. Questioning isn't anger.
It is frustrating when people try to shut down debate and discussion.
Access to the arts is important. Unless and until I see independent evidence that this achieves what it sets out to want, I retain the right to ask questions.
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Post by talkingheads on May 29, 2023 13:56:07 GMT
I haven't seen anyone posting on here from a position of anger. Scepticism isn't anger. Questioning isn't anger. It is frustrating when people try to shut down debate and discussion. Access to the arts is important. Unless and until I see independent evidence that this achieves what it sets out to want, I retain the right to ask questions. Absolutely. I just don't see what all the fuss is about. There are over thirty performances of this play, yet people are up in arms about one single night in which the makers have politely asked should be attended by an all black audience as a communal experience, and even then it says quite clearly that anybody is free to attend.
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Post by steve10086 on May 29, 2023 14:09:31 GMT
It’s not my place to speak on behalf of a black audience, but I’m not seeing much defence of this idea on here, so I am going to comment. If I say anything offensive I really didn’t mean to!
As I understand it, this is a black story, which wants to reach a black audience (amongst others). Different cultures have different ways of responding and “behaving” (not meant to mean “good”, or “bad”) when watching a play, and perhaps some people want to experience their own culture on stage, and be allowed to react in ways that are culturally appropriate to them, without some middle aged white bloke (me) telling them to sit still and be quiet every five minutes!
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Post by oxfordsimon on May 29, 2023 14:42:41 GMT
I haven't seen anyone posting on here from a position of anger. Scepticism isn't anger. Questioning isn't anger. It is frustrating when people try to shut down debate and discussion. Access to the arts is important. Unless and until I see independent evidence that this achieves what it sets out to want, I retain the right to ask questions. Absolutely. I just don't see what all the fuss is about. There are over thirty performances of this play, yet people are up in arms about one single night in which the makers have politely asked should be attended by an all black audience as a communal experience, and even then it says quite clearly that anybody is free to attend. There you go again ascribing attitudes to people on here who have not demonstrated those behaviours. I genuinely do not believe it is right for ANY arts event to demand, require or request that a specific group be the only ones to experience it. Even for one performance. And for all the talk of not excluding anyone, that is what this sort of event actually wants to achieve. The arts should be for all. If producers and venues want to take steps to encourage participation from groups who do not normally access their events, then that is exactly what should be happening. Accessibility is vital. But you don't build communities by excluding people - even asking people to self exclude runs contrary to the idea of broadening access and participation.
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Post by danb on May 29, 2023 15:02:36 GMT
It’s not my place to speak on behalf of a black audience, but I’m not seeing much defence of this idea on here, so I am going to comment. If I say anything offensive I really didn’t mean to! As I understand it, this is a black story, which wants to reach a black audience (amongst others). Different cultures have different ways of responding and “behaving” (not meant to mean “good”, or “bad”) when watching a play, and perhaps some people want to experience their own culture on stage, and be allowed to react in ways that are culturally appropriate to them, without some middle aged white bloke (me) telling them to sit still and be quiet every five minutes! Exactly this. As I see it, they are just trying to encourage an audience that otherwise may not attend, to see a piece of theatre that they may find particularly relevant and enjoy/appreciate if they saw it. It is just removing a barrier. The likes of Katie Hopkins et al would argue that it is creating one, but after I’d told her where to go, I would point out that she was free to see any of the other 29 shows but I suspect this would not support her agenda.
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Post by Latecomer on May 29, 2023 15:05:07 GMT
When I look around theatre audiences i definitely see elderly white people as most of the audience. I cannot imagine what it feels like to be in an audience that seems “unfamiliar” to me (I am white). I do know that I have no “history” in my family of theatre, and that it took some courage to start watching theatre and feel that I “belonged” there. So…..if this is an attempt at making black people feel comfortable and to perhaps have the confidence to see theatre, when they haven’t before, then I’m fine with this. And to those who object and say “where will it all end”, I’d say, put yourself in others shoes and be open to encourage people who don’t currently go to theatre, by all means possible. It’s only 1 performance and you can still go if you want to! It’s about removing barriers and creating confidence for a section of people not fully represented in current audiences.
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Post by clarefh on May 30, 2023 7:29:29 GMT
When I look around theatre audiences i definitely see elderly white people as most of the audience. I cannot imagine what it feels like to be in an audience that seems “unfamiliar” to me (I am white). I do know that I have no “history” in my family of theatre, and that it took some courage to start watching theatre and feel that I “belonged” there. So…..if this is an attempt at making black people feel comfortable and to perhaps have the confidence to see theatre, when they haven’t before, then I’m fine with this. And to those who object and say “where will it all end”, I’d say, put yourself in others shoes and be open to encourage people who don’t currently go to theatre, by all means possible. It’s only 1 performance and you can still go if you want to! It’s about removing barriers and creating confidence for a section of people not fully represented in current audiences.
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Post by clarefh on May 30, 2023 7:35:07 GMT
Sorry that posted too soon!
I wanted to respond to latecomer’s post. I recently went to ‘All the Black boys’ and it was a really interesting experience for me ( as well as an enjoyable play). It was the first time I had been in a minority in the audience and it made me reflect on how I’d never really ‘felt’ before (even if I knew logically) how similar many theatre audiences are, and what it feels like not to be in the majority. In an ideal world this wouldn’t matter, but I found it did, or rather it definitely made the experience less comfortable ( and I should add no one in the audience made me feel uncomfortable or unwelcome!).
So I’m also in the camp of thinking this doesn’t do any harm and if it allows a community that, on the whole, has greater barriers to theatre going to experience the play in a way that feels more welcoming/easy then it is to be welcomed.
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Post by profquatermass on May 30, 2023 8:19:46 GMT
Thank you latecomer, clarefh and danb for expressing how i feel about this issue so much better than I could. Is anyone being prevented from going to the theatre? No. Is anyone being made to feel more welcome at the theatre? Quite possibly. Is anyone grossly over-reacting to the fact that, for the first time in their lives, being white isn't advantaging them? Definitely
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Post by crowblack on May 31, 2023 12:22:23 GMT
When you go to a show by a black writer or team, dealing with subjects that may resonate more with black people's lived experience, you tend to see far more black people in the audience, wether that's in London or Manchester or wherever in the UK. Britain seems to be doing pretty well, much better than the USA - many of my friends & some relatives - most of them, in London, are themselves of or in mixed heritage relationships, with parents and children the same. We have very diverse faces on TV, film and stage (and politics!) - and are now remaking classic period dramas to be more inclusive.
So is there a need to import an initiative from the far more toxically divided USA, one that's based on the idea that all and any white people have an oppressive 'white gaze' that black people need to be segregated away from to feel safe when watching a play? Is that theory true or helpful in bringing people together or making people feel confident interacting with each other in society? It's the language behind this, the blanket idea of whiteness as some sort of original sin or inherently oppressive and scary, rather than viewing people as individual human beings with their own distinct stories and attitudes and relationships.
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Post by danb on May 31, 2023 13:06:20 GMT
I guess you’d need to ask somebody going specifically to that performance exactly why they are going.
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Post by Latecomer on May 31, 2023 14:09:09 GMT
When you go to a show by a black writer or team, dealing with subjects that may resonate more with black people's lived experience, you tend to see far more black people in the audience, wether that's in London or Manchester or wherever in the UK. Britain seems to be doing pretty well, much better than the USA - many of my friends & some relatives - most of them, in London, are themselves of or in mixed heritage relationships, with parents and children the same. We have very diverse faces on TV, film and stage (and politics!) - and are now remaking classic period dramas to be more inclusive. So is there a need to import an initiative from the far more toxically divided USA, one that's based on the idea that all and any white people have an oppressive 'white gaze' that black people need to be segregated away from to feel safe when watching a play? Is that theory true or helpful in bringing people together or making people feel confident interacting with each other in society? It's the language behind this, the blanket idea of whiteness as some sort of original sin or inherently oppressive and scary, rather than viewing people as individual human beings with their own distinct stories and attitudes and relationships. But I’m not sure that is what they are saying when you say “oppressed “white gaze””…..etc. I think it’s about making people actually Not think they are “different” and even need to notice the difference……when audiences and plays accurately reflect society then fine, don’t bother, but as you have mentioned this isn’t the case yet (in fact you had noticed that you “tend to see more black people” at productions that may resonate with black people, so by definition the rest of the time it isn’t the case!) It’s the same when people moan about positive discrimination in the workplace for women/people of colour….I say when we are at the same % as society I’m fine to ditch it!!!!
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Post by Latecomer on May 31, 2023 14:11:26 GMT
I guess you’d need to ask somebody going specifically to that performance exactly why they are going. And yes, agreed.
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Post by crowblack on May 31, 2023 15:31:23 GMT
(in fact you had noticed that you “tend to see more black people” at productions that may resonate with black people, so by definition the rest of the time it isn’t the case!) It's not unexpected - a play like Albion will attract a white middle class audience and I didn't find it very resonant, Allelujah was one of the most elderly audiences I've sat in, The Inheritance the only time I've been to a play with no queue whatsoever for the women's toilets. If you want to attract a particular / more diverse demographic, programme a variety of plays that appeal, at prices that feel less 'Waitrose'. I prefer inclusion to exclusion as an approach though.
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Post by crowblack on Jun 1, 2023 21:35:55 GMT
There's an interesting piece by Alexander Cohen in the Jewish Chronicle on this.
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Post by oxfordsimon on Jun 1, 2023 21:43:16 GMT
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Post by crowblack on Jun 1, 2023 22:36:58 GMT
Not working for me either, but you can google it and it comes up.
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Post by wiggymess on Jun 2, 2023 11:35:13 GMT
That article is so far from the simple facts of the situation as to almost be irrelevant. It explains why a jews-only night would "deny a precious opportunity to celebrate sharing our experiences, our worlds, our lives, with others. Instead, it would stand for the opposite. It would want to keep us ghettoised, ossifying boundaries with a patronising finger wag instead of knocking them down."
It doesn't shut down the audience's ability to engage with another culture, or reduce the capacity for empathy. The only lack of empathy being shown is by those who are upset by this sort of thing, because they seem incapable of considering historical or societal context.
It. Is. One. Performance. Out. Of. Thirty.
Just another way of blowing it all out of proportion. Living with privilege so easily breeds the notion of "oh my god, whatever next?", or "imagine if it was US excluding THEM."
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Post by crowblack on Jun 2, 2023 19:20:12 GMT
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Post by crowblack on Jun 2, 2023 19:36:43 GMT
[Deleted because it was personal about my experiences as a disabled person and the blanket notion of privilege]
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